Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: josephalabi on January 08, 2025, 05:55:30 pm
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Exactly. We have 100% success rate against this council: 2 DNCed a couple of years ago and 2 which went the full distance. They failed to attend and costs were awarded in one. If I get involved, I suggest you name as late as possible for strategic reasons!
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@josephalabi make another representation, exactly the same as the previous one. There's no reason why you'd ever want to pay a London bus lane PCN, especially with a council like Greenwich.
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The latter. Yes fight it.
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Hi,
Does this mean that there are no other grounds of appealing/contesting this PCN? I received the attached letter and want to understand if I should just pay or make another representation.
Thank you for your assistance.
@cp8759
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I've had confirmation that there are no other amending orders for this bus lane.
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Hi @cp8759
Okay - thank you for confirming. I have gone ahead to appeal with the one line you provided. Should i come back here once they have responded?
Yes, please post up the rejection when you get it.
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Hi @cp8759
Okay - thank you for confirming. I have gone ahead to appeal with the one line you provided. Should i come back here once they have responded?
Thanks
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Excellent but far too long.
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@josephalabi this AI generated crap is a complete pile of BS and it is wrong for more reasons than I have time to list.
As I said, make a one line representation as follows: "There was no contravention of a prescribed order".
You don't need to add anything: the council will reject no matter what you say but that's not a reason to put in a pile of nonsense (including made up cases that don't actually exist).
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Thank you @cp8759 and @Hippocrates
I used ai to draft an appeal could you help me look below and see if its okay
RE: Appeal Against Penalty Charge Notice [PCN Number]
Dear Sir/Madam,
I write to formally contest the Penalty Charge Notice referenced above, issued by the London Borough of Greenwich. I submit that the alleged contravention did not occur, and the PCN should be cancelled forthwith for the following reasons:
Non-Compliance with Statutory Traffic Management Orders
The enforcement of the bus lane restriction relies upon The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) Traffic Order 2001 and its subsequent amendment, The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) (Amendment No. 12) Traffic Order 2014. I submit that the requirements set forth in these Traffic Management Orders (TMOs) have not been satisfied in this instance.
Inadequate Signage
There is a statutory requirement for clear and proper signage to be displayed in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. Specifically:
a) No evidence exists of a Diagram 958 warning sign being present at the required distance before the restriction.
b) There is an absence of the mandatory Diagram 959B signage past the point of the alleged contravention.
The absence of these prescribed traffic signs renders the restriction unenforceable, as per the principles established in various Traffic Adjudicator decisions, including but not limited to Herron v London Borough of Lambeth [2014] EWHC 1963 (Admin).
Burden of Proof
The burden of proof lies with the enforcement authority to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that:
A contravention occurred
The relevant TMOs were properly made and are in force
All prescribed signs and road markings were in place and clearly visible
I submit that Greenwich Council cannot discharge this burden of proof in this instance.
Legal Precedent:
The importance of proper signage has been consistently upheld by the courts, as exemplified in Parking Committee for London v The Parking Adjudicator [2007] EWHC 1372 (Admin), where it was held that inadequate signage renders enforcement invalid.
Request for Resolution:
Given the above submissions, I respectfully request that:
The PCN be cancelled immediately
Written confirmation of the cancellation be provided
All enforcement proceedings be terminated
Should the Council wish to maintain this PCN, I require:
Evidence of compliance with the relevant TMOs
Photographic evidence of the required signage in situ
Certification that all signage meets the prescribed requirements
I reserve the right to add to or amend these grounds of appeal and to introduce additional evidence as it becomes available.
Thank you.
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Also, there is no evidence of a 958 warning sign or 959B signage passed. I would take this all the way. The last two won, they did not attend either. The 14 days is immaterial.
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@josephalabi code 34 PCNs in London are all open to technical challenges, and it's not as if Greenwich would properly fight an appeal anyway, half the time they don't even put any evidence in.
For now just make a one line representation saying that the alleged contravention did not occur, Greenwich will reject but you have to go through the motions.
The TMOs are:
The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) Traffic Order 2001 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k2nGQAcsgD-BEEJ0SGvQ9__rqIY77C9c/view)
The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) (Amendment No. 12) Traffic Order 2014 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LOQMZm6eAadByDLvysr5yIN6x-b76asx/view)
In the meantime I'll check for other amendments.
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Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name & address.
@cp8759 have you been able to look at this for me?
Thank you
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Looking at the video, one can see a pole on the opposite carriageway just behind a bus. If one measures the distance from this point on your side of the road to the end of the bus lane, you drove in the bus lane for about 18 yards. At one time you might have got away with this at adjudication on de minimis grounds, but I don't think this wins nowadays. Nothing to stop you trying of course. And of course if you take them to London Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play.
HOwever, this may not be the end of the matter, as there may be a 'technical' appeal based on Greenwich mismanagement of the enforcement process, or a fatal error in the PCN (much rarer now).
Thank you for your feedback - would you say it's worth appealing on these grounds? If so, is there anything specific I should mention in the appeal as I am unsure.
Thank you for your help.
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Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name & address.
I have uploaded everything I have now, thank you
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Looking at the video, one can see a pole on the opposite carriageway just behind a bus. If one measures the distance from this point on your side of the road to the end of the bus lane, you drove in the bus lane for about 18 yards. At one time you might have got away with this at adjudication on de minimis grounds, but I don't think this wins nowadays. Nothing to stop you trying of course. And of course if you take them to London Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play.
HOwever, this may not be the end of the matter, as there may be a 'technical' appeal based on Greenwich mismanagement of the enforcement process, or a fatal error in the PCN (much rarer now).
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Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name & address.
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Hello,
I am hoping someone can help me. I received a Penalty Charge Notice in the post regarding a contravention of me being in a bus lane. I cannot remember the times that were visible if they were at all and I was turning left but there was traffic ahead and the car ahead stopped a little earlier. is there anything that can be done regarding this? Is there a way I can appeal as it was literally at the end of the lane.
PCN NUMBER: GR2280780A
VRN: MA10 GCF
Video of contravention: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cZWq0xrSvIGxbix1RQErc5Icu2FQ55zT/view?usp=sharing
Location (I think): https://maps.app.goo.gl/qQENHeeEhAUBCNGy9
Would appreciate help here on how I might be able to appeal this.
Thank you
cc: @cp8759
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