Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: silveraudi on January 07, 2025, 08:47:08 pm
-
FFS, the sign says that payment by phone is an option and also:
'The following will incur a penalty charge'
Parking without prominently displaying a valid ticket or purchasing a virtual permit.'
IMO, the only valid contravention grounds in your case must be 'Parked without payment of the parking charge'.
Everything you've posted to date is irrelevant as regards the cited contravention therefore if you pursue this line you must lose. You did NOT display anything irrespective of wherever you were parked therefore the contravention is proved.
But the grounds are c**p, so IMO change your approach.
Just re-reading this and I think I understand the point - so should I say something along the lines of:
‘The alleged contravention is not one of those listed within the car park signage and therefore should not incur a penalty charge. The car park signage does state that “parking without predominantly displaying a valid ticket or purchasing a virtual permit” will incur a penalty charge, however should this contravention have been stated, then it should be made clear that a virtual permit had been purchased using the MiPermit app against car park code etc etc….
Am I along the right lines here ?
Thanks
-
I think that's what Mr A is getting at but I wouldn't also lose sight of the fact that their own app misled you into buying a more expensive ticket and parking in a car place.
-
FFS, the sign says that payment by phone is an option and also:
'The following will incur a penalty charge'
Parking without prominently displaying a valid ticket or purchasing a virtual permit.'
IMO, the only valid contravention grounds in your case must be 'Parked without payment of the parking charge'.
Everything you've posted to date is irrelevant as regards the cited contravention therefore if you pursue this line you must lose. You did NOT display anything irrespective of wherever you were parked therefore the contravention is proved.
But the grounds are c**p, so IMO change your approach.
thanks for your reply.
Are you saying that the contravention stated on the PCN is incorrect, because it doesn't consider virtual permits, which the T&C's board does?
If so, how would you word that part of the response? And would you then state the wider situation (that I paid using the 'wrong' code) as a secondary argument?
-
FFS, the sign says that payment by phone is an option and also:
'The following will incur a penalty charge'
Parking without prominently displaying a valid ticket or purchasing a virtual permit.'
IMO, the only valid contravention grounds in your case must be 'Parked without payment of the parking charge'.
Everything you've posted to date is irrelevant as regards the cited contravention therefore if you pursue this line you must lose. You did NOT display anything irrespective of wherever you were parked therefore the contravention is proved.
But the grounds are c**p, so IMO change your approach.
-
Thanks for your reply and suggested response. I appreciate your time spent looking through all of the detail.
To answer your question, I was parked in a car bay - in the slot where the white Toyota is parked in the street view link you sent.
Many thanks
Even more reason why they have incorrectly advised the PbP app provider, the map display on your app should have given you two numbers for the location where you parked, one for cars, and one for coaches, and made plain which is which. It is quite plainly their fault not yours. However, such is council greed for money, you may well have to take them to adjudication.
-
Thanks for your reply and suggested response. I appreciate your time spent looking through all of the detail.
To answer your question, I was parked in a car bay - in the slot where the white Toyota is parked in the street view link you sent.
Many thanks
-
Just tootling around the car park.....
This view shows there to be four car parking spaces, and three long bays marked "coaches only" alongside each other, and at the back are some bays for BB holders.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/dsWJu7Szbfubj1CK9
So one has to wonder how the council think the app they insist you use for PbP can possibly distinguish between the two tariffs at your chosen location. It only shows a single location, whereas it should display two, one for coaches, and one for cars. . The nearest board to you merely says you can pay by phone but gives no number to use, that is displayed on the app. The display on your app shows two numbers with no apparent difference in the vehicles that can use that number. Indeed what code do you use if you are in one of the four car bays, or the BB bays ? Clearly and rational person would select the code for where they can see on the map on the app.
The council are being their usual obdurate selves, so you really must get them in front of an adjudicator
I would suggest something on the following lines, backed up by photos of the sign nearest to your car and also the app map displaying the two numbers.
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <number> served on <dd/mm/yyyy> at Sadlers Mead Car Park
I deny responsibility for payment of the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
On the day in question, being new to Chippenham, I searched for parking and eventually parked in Sadlers Mead Car Park. There were spaces available to the left as I drove in, some for Blue Badge Holders, three for coaches, and four for cars. A short distance away, a sign welcomed me to the car park and told me that I could pay by phone. I therefore opened the applicable app on my phone that showed a small map of the car park, and selected the number shown nearest to my car. The number shown on the sign was different, but on the map, it was shown at the multi-storey car park. I therefore selected the number that seemed to apply to where I had actually parked and paid.
My initial challenge was rejected on the basis that I had parked in the coaches car park, yet there are no signs whatever concerning coach parking at all, anywhere in the car park, only the sign I saw. I therefore consider that I used the app correctly and paid and that the council have not given sufficient instructions to the suppliers of the app on payment arrangements where I parked where two tariffs are in operation, one for cars and one for coaches. I attach photos of the map on the app on my phone, and the sign nearest to my car.
I therefore request that the PCN be cancelled forthwith.
Yours faithfully
Just a question - were you actually parked in one of the car bays ?
-
So a quick update - I've now received the 'Notice To Owner' letter, as expected:
https://imgur.com/a/h6f28LS (https://imgur.com/a/h6f28LS)
I need to either pay or make a representation to the enforcement authority by 19/02/25. Any suggestions on a suitable response appreciated !
Many thanks.
-
Good Evening and thanks for the replies so far.
I went and found the T&Cs board that's closest to where I parked - see below:
https://imgur.com/a/nxIy7B0 (https://imgur.com/a/nxIy7B0)
I also searched for the sign that shows the coaches code (710108), and I'm fairly sure it doesn't exist. The only way to find that code is via the app.
PS - Maybe I should have parked like these cars have:
https://imgur.com/a/jb2kNyk (https://imgur.com/a/jb2kNyk)
!!
-
So you paid more than you should have done to park in a car space owing to a footling location code issue in an app? I presume the app isn't bright enough to reconcile your car VRM with vehicle type.
Yes the t&c's are important but really this is a poor show by the council and I would go on with this. I think an adjudicator would side with you.
-
...everything except the Ts and Cs board applicable to where you were.
No amount of narrative and references to a permit app which might be irrelevant can substitute IMO.
-
So my reading of what happened is that you did not view any car park conditions boards at all, but relied on the Mi Permit app on your phone to present to you on your mobile screen where the parking locations are and their location numbers. It uses satnav to do this and works in a similar way to Ringo on my own phone.
Thanks for your reply. To answer your first point - Yes, I relied on the app (stupidly) and selected the one that was where I was parked. Because its only one digit different to the code on the sign, I didn't notice. The image below is what Mi Permit presents (with my annotations in red):
https://imgur.com/a/6uuQ4Gf
In using the app, I should have selected the carpark location some 50m away from where I was parked, not the one that was directly where I was parked.
So your app should have told you that the location you used was for coaches only; did it ?
The image below is what it shows when you select the carpark I was in, whilst parked in a legitimate car parking space:
https://imgur.com/a/P0OO1e1 (https://imgur.com/a/P0OO1e1)
It has (coaches) in brackets at the end, which I didn't notice, however I was in the coach park area of a car park so might not have seemed entirely odd.
My view is that you have a reasonably good case, because the app is confusing by showing a number by where you parked, whereas it should really display two numbers there, one for cars parked in car spaces, and one for coaches
So despite their usual Fob-Off letter, I would take this all the way to adjudication and risk the full PCN penalty, but it's your decision.
I agree - as it stands, the tag I should have selected was quite some distance from where I was parked, which I don't believe is very intuitive.
Thanks for your advice.
-
I have appealed using the online process, explaining all of the above in detail
I suspect a bit too much!
Anyway, let's break this down.
The alleged contravention is not for driving a car and not a coach, or not paying(irrespective of location codes) or parking in an area not designated for your class of vehicle, it is for not displaying a P&D ticket or voucher.
But you paid online, so it's impossible to display and there cannot be a requirement to display, therefore the contravention did not occur...
..unless where you parked has clear Ts and Cs to the contrary.
So, pl forget about payment, whether you're a coach or car etc...we need to see the Ts and Cs board which applied to where you were parked pl.
Thanks for your reply. I did wonder about the contravention definition. Seems odd. I'll get a copy of the T&C's board later today.
-
So my reading of what happened is that you did not view any car park conditions boards at all, but relied on the Mi Permit app on your phone to present to you on your mobile screen where the parking locations are and their location numbers. It uses satnav to do this and works in a similar way to Ringo on my own phone. So your app should have told you that the location you used was for coaches only; did it ?
Here in Nantwich we have two car parks very close together and one must make sure the correct one is chosen on the map shown on one's mobile phone. So in my opinion, much depends on what Mi Permit showed you to select from in order to pay for parking.
My view is that you have a reasonably good case, because the app is confusing by showing a number by where you parked, whereas it should really display two numbers there, one for cars parked in car spaces, and one for coaches
So despite their usual Fob-Off letter, I would take this all the way to adjudication and risk the full PCN penalty, but it's your decision.
-
I have appealed using the online process, explaining all of the above in detail
I suspect a bit too much!
Anyway, let's break this down.
The alleged contravention is not for driving a car and not a coach, or not paying(irrespective of location codes) or parking in an area not designated for your class of vehicle, it is for not displaying a P&D ticket or voucher.
But you paid online, so it's impossible to display and there cannot be a requirement to display, therefore the contravention did not occur...
..unless where you parked has clear Ts and Cs to the contrary.
So, pl forget about payment, whether you're a coach or car etc...we need to see the Ts and Cs board which applied to where you were parked pl.
-
OK, lots of useful info, but you haven't shown us the sign with the location number for coaches parking that you mistakenly used. If this sign refers to coaches parking you will struggle, but if it doesn't you are in with a chance. We also need to know exactly where you parked in photographic terms and the nearest sign to that.
Also be aware that councils reject virtually all informal challenges, because they know that most people then just cough-up to get the discount. People are far too accepting that councils know what they are doing, the plain fact is most of them haven't a clue, based on experience of this forum !
Thanks for your reply. I don't know where it is, I'll need to go back and look. The only reason I used the wrong code wasn't because of the signage in the carpark, but because the Mi Permit app places the the coaches option over the car park I parked in, and the cars option over the multi-story carpark approx. 50m away - See below:
https://imgur.com/a/6uuQ4Gf
Natural instinct was to select the option closest to where I was parked (in fact, right on top of where I was parked!). Is there any argument around this, or am I best to just pay and get done with it ?
-
OK, lots of useful info, but you haven't shown us the sign with the location number for coaches parking that you mistakenly used. If this sign refers to coaches parking you will struggle, but if it doesn't you are in with a chance. We also need to know exactly where you parked in photographic terms and the nearest sign to that.
Also be aware that councils reject virtually all informal challenges, because they know that most people then just cough-up to get the discount. People are far too accepting that councils know what they are doing, the plain fact is most of them haven't a clue, based on experience of this forum !
-
This is a council PCN, not a private parking charge notice, so I have moved this post to the Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/) forum.
To help the users there provide you with the best advice, please read the following thread carefully and provide as much of the information it requests as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**, This section is for council, TFL, Dart/Mersey/Tyne etc. cases (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) - the information required is slightly different with council PCNs, so you should read this guide even if you have already read the private parking one.
Thanks - I have made the relevant edits :)
-
This is a council PCN, not a private parking charge notice, so I have moved this post to the Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/) forum.
To help the users there provide you with the best advice, please read the following thread carefully and provide as much of the information it requests as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**, This section is for council, TFL, Dart/Mersey/Tyne etc. cases (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) - the information required is slightly different with council PCNs, so you should read this guide even if you have already read the private parking one.
-
Original post now modified with all the documents attached as links. Thank you.
-
thanks, I'll edit my original post with the extra information.
-
Welcome to FTLA.
To help us provide the best advice, please read the following thread carefully and provide as much of the information it asks for as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
-
Good evening - I received a PCN whilst my car was parked in a council run car park on 17/12/24 and would appreciate some advice on how to proceed.
I parked on 17/12/24, and used Mi Permit to pay, leaving well before my expiry time.
Here's the issue:
The carpark consists of a multistory area, and outside that, stretching to approx 50m, a parking area with spaces for both cars and coaches. I parked in the outside area, in a car space. There is a sign giving the Mi Permit car park code (700108). See 3 images - car park entrance, layout and signage on the link below:
https://imgur.com/a/O5bvNpT (https://imgur.com/a/O5bvNpT)
Street View:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vtEW79Kszv6w1fvP6 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/vtEW79Kszv6w1fvP6)
Within the Mi Permit App, there is in fact 2 tags, 1 for cars and one for coaches. the 'Cars Tag' (700108) is geographically situated on the multistory area, and the 'Coaches Tag' (710108) is geographically placed some 50m away in the outside parking area.
https://imgur.com/a/6uuQ4Gf (https://imgur.com/a/6uuQ4Gf)
Not realising the above, I selected the tag which was in the position I was parked (710108) and being only 1 digit different to the sign, I didn't notice.
So in summary, I paid for a coach, not a car.
The cost was £2.40 for up to 4 hours (I stayed for about 1hr 40mins).
https://imgur.com/a/YffTzVF (https://imgur.com/a/YffTzVF)
If I had selected the other tag, some 50m away from where I was parked, which is for cars, I would have paid £1.70 for up to 2 hours.
I recieved the following PCN:
https://imgur.com/a/8jJD1Oa (https://imgur.com/a/8jJD1Oa)
I have appealed using the online process, explaining all of the above in detail but and my appeal has been rejected as follows:
https://imgur.com/a/mB7pzMF (https://imgur.com/a/mB7pzMF)
The rejection response also had a photo of the Pay and display machine and signage, which I think is in the multi-story section of the car park, and does seem to have some T&Cs on it. I never went into the multi-story, so never saw this, and the outside signage doesn't have any T&Cs printed.
The Mi-Permit receipt did state "Sadlers Mead Car Park (Coaches)" which whilst I didn't notice at the time, doesn't seem entirely strange considering I was in a car parking space within a coach parking area. Ambiguous perhaps.
I think that the way the app is setup is ambiguous and having 2 codes so similar has lead to a genuine mistake that actually resulted in me paying a higher charge than I could have done, but to not recognize this seems somewhat unfair.
Any advice on how to proceed would be appreciated! thank you.