Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: traz on January 07, 2025, 07:06:20 pm
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Telephone the Tribunal today and ask for it to be changed to a personal (=telephone or video) hearing, as advised by CP. Otherwise, as the letter says, the case will be decided in your absence.
Do this, and then make a subject access request to TFL as I previously advised.
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Telephone the Tribunal today and ask for it to be changed to a personal (=telephone or video) hearing, as advised by CP. Otherwise, as the letter says, the case will be decided in your absence.
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Received this email from London Tribunals.
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As I read it, when a WS has been submitted under the 'made reps but did not receive NOR' grounds the owner does not become an appellant until determined by the adjudicator, which brings us back to why has the OP not received notice to this effect and why did TfL go to the lengths of preparing a full-blown evidence pack when no appeal was actually in place or if it was, when was this registered etc?
Authorities have always been required to provide a full-blown evidence pack up-front for TEC ground 2 cases, this is long-standing practice. Until recently the tribunal used to write to all declarants asking for a copy of the representations and the case would then go to an adjudicator to decide whether the case should be listed as an appeal.
I wrote to the Chief Adjudicator in December pointing out that were the representations and the Notice of Rejection are included in the evidence pack this process was entirely pointless because:
A) If the representations are in the evidence pack that the tribunal already has, asking the declarant to provide a copy is completely pointless
B) If the letter from the tribunal asking for a copy of the representations goes missing in the post, or the letter back from the motorist goes missing in the post, the declarant ends up with a direction to pay that should have never been issued, that is a miscarriage of justice that is bound to happen from time to time given the high volume of Ground 2 cases
C) When a ground 2 declaration has been accepted by TEC and the motorist produces a copy of the representations, the outcome is always without exception that the case be listed as an appeal
D) In light of the above, it would be far more efficient for the admin team to go through Ground 2 referrals from the local authority so that where there are no representations in the evidence pack, the standard letter asking for a copy of the representations goes out, but in cases where the representations and the NoR are in the evidence pack, the admin team simply lists the case for a hearing under delegated powers.
Although I never had a reply, the tribunal has now implemented this process which means that all Ground 2 statutory declarations go to the Proper Officer team and if the reps and the NoR are in evidence item E, the case is administratively listed for adjudication. This saves the declarant from having to send a copy of the representations, and it saves an adjudicator from having to look at the case twice.
@traz on this point I'd suggest you call the tribunal back and ask them to put a note on the case saying that if the case is to be decided as an appeal, you'd like a hearing. Otherwise they would list it for a postal decision.
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As I understand it, the Chief Adjudicator made clear in their 2023-2024 Annual Report to ETA (https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Annual%20report%20202324.pdf) that much confusion still surrounds the issue of SD/WS.
As I read it, when a WS has been submitted under the 'made reps but did not receive NOR' grounds the owner does not become an appellant until determined by the adjudicator, which brings us back to why has the OP not received notice to this effect and why did TfL go to the lengths of preparing a full-blown evidence pack when no appeal was actually in place or if it was, when was this registered etc?
OP, if the advice is that you wait, then wait.
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My money's on a TfL muddle/improper behaviour.
Then you'd have lost your money, the case is with the Proper Officer because if there are no representations / NOR in the evidence pack, the tribunal writes out to the Appellant asking for a copy of the representations, while if the reps and NOR are in the evidence pack then the tribunal just lists the case for a hearing (it would be pointless to ask the Appellant for a copy of the representations if the tribunal has them already). Obviously the POs are very busy but until they go through evidence item E to check what's there, the case cannot progress.
TFL have sent an evidence pack because they send it to the Appellant at the same time as they send it to the tribunal.
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I called London Tribunals and they have said that it is with the case management team so it has not been listed.
OP, I wonder what this means:
It has been registered as an appeal, or
It has not been registered, or
TfL are trying to exert influence on the adjudicator to (IMO improperly) look behind TEC's decision?
If the first, why hadn't ETA notified you, and if the second case why have TfL sent you an 'evidence' pack, there's no hearing as yet which requires evidence. And as for the third!
My money's on a TfL muddle/improper behaviour.
But there's nothing for you to do except wait.
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Just a novice question. What should I do now? Just wait for them to email me?
Yes, but in the meantime I'd do a few things so that you're armed and ready:
1) Make a subject access request to dpo@tfl.gov.uk asking for a copy of all the PDF files that have been sent to the tribunal for your PCN (you will need to give your full name and the PCN number, and attach proof of ID such as a scan of your driving licence or a recent utility bill), the copy TFL sends you in the post will likely be missing a few documents and you want to have the exact same papers the adjudicator will have.
2) Have a read of Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-RndFZ_r1JlVDGvo13wKLGpDCy3OBXqW/view), it's a decision which has stood the test of time and sets out the key principles applicable to delays.
3) Have a read of the cases in column D of this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037&range=A995) on rows 995 to 1004, your notice of rejection is affected by the same issue (do this on a computer, not on your phone).
4) Has TFL included a DVD with the CCTV footage in the evidence pack? If not, please call them on 0343 222 3333 and ask them for a copy, they should send you a DVD in the post.
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I believe the attached is the copy of the NOR from evidence E.
I called London Tribunals and they have said that it is with the case management team so it has not been listed.
Yes, I have changed the communication preference to email.
Just a novice question. What should I do now? Just wait for them to email me?
Thanks
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Is it still possible to clear this PCN at the reduced rate at this point?
No, forget about the discount, and frankly it would be foolish to settle at the discount: if TFL have skipped a crucial step such as issuing the notice of rejection then you have a winning appeal, so why on earth would you pay them £80?!?
The case summary says a Notice of Rejection was issued on 15 October, is there a copy in evidence item E?
Have you spoken to the tribunal and got the case number? Have you changed the communications preference to email?
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So if I understand correctly, TFL should have issued an NOR but they skipped this step? And now I need to wait for a response from the adjudicator?
What are options now?
Is it still possible to clear this PCN at the reduced rate at this point?
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TfL have got themselves into a muddle, not that it directly assists your case but it's indicative of their capability. When TEC have revoked an OfR on your grounds, 'did not receive NOR..', then TfL '..shall refer the case to the traffic adjudicator who may give such direction as he considers appropriate.'
Their Witness Statement(whatever the hell this is, there's no procedural provision for such) harks back to them issuing a NOR and not receiving any notification from Royal Mail that mail could not be delivered or returned letters. All irrelevant within the procedure. They also make repeated references to your 'application', but the only application made by you was to TEC.
Anyway, once we know what the adjudicator has decided as regards their submission dated 29 Jan we'll know what to advise. IMO, you should have heard from the tribunal by now which reinforces the need for you to establish an email comms link.
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@Neil B I have attached a copy of the summary from the pack.
I have rescanned the cover letter and the pcn number now be seen.
@cp8759 Okay I will call London Tribunal Monday morning and find out whether the case has been set up.
PS apologies for the late reply. I did not see the responses as I was checking the first page and didn't realise there was a second page to the thread.
Thanks
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@traz you must call London Tribunals on Monday on 020 7520 7200 and find out if the case has been set up and if so, whether it has been listed for a hearing or a postal decision (or possibly whether it's still in the Proper Officer's queue to look at).
This sounds like a straightforward case but it would be easy to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Also, and this is crucially important: give the tribunal your email address and ask them to change the communications preference to email, also if the tribunal has sent you any correspondence by post ask them to re-send it by email.
And perhaps you could give him a reminder to repond to members when we ask questions?
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@traz you must call London Tribunals on Monday on 020 7520 7200 and find out if the case has been set up and if so, whether it has been listed for a hearing or a postal decision (or possibly whether it's still in the Proper Officer's queue to look at).
This sounds like a straightforward case but it would be easy to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Also, and this is crucially important: give the tribunal your email address and ask them to change the communications preference to email, also if the tribunal has sent you any correspondence by post ask them to re-send it by email.
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I'll try this one more time >>>
It would help if we at least had the PCN number and registration so we could confirm your current position.
And, from nthe evidence pack, is there a case summary you can show us?
Yes please. When posting documents it's only necessary to redact your name and address and/or email address where present. Please leave everything else visible, especially the vehicle reg, the PCN reference number, all times and dates and locations and any other Council info.
This is covered in the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) sticky post at the to[ of the forum.
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I'll try this one more time >>>
It would help if we at least had the PCN number and registration so we could confirm your current position.
And, from nthe evidence pack, is there a case summary you can show us?
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Yes, that's right. I am attaching a scan of the covering letter.
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Continue with this thread.
Have you received anything from TEC?
Was there a covering letter from TfL with the pack?
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Update
TFL have now sent me a 40 page pack in which they are still pursing the PCN. What would be the best course of action now?
Also, should I open a new thread or continue with this one?
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Thank you everyone.
I've filled out the PE3 form and sent it to the TEC.
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It would help if we at least had the PCN number and registration so we could confirm your current position.
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OP, I don't want to hinder you doing what is the ONLY action open to you which is to complete(including getting your signature witnessed) the PE3 and then send to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
We give this advice so often that occasionally we might forget an OP's level of knowledge.
Yours is practically zero, c'est la vie.
Therefore matters have to be particularised.
The 'they' in the previous post means the Traffic Enforcement Centre, nothing to do with TfL. So make sure you understand the difference.
The PCN won't be cancelled, it's the Charge Cert and OfR which are. TEC will instruct TfL in whose court the ball will land. If they want to continue then they must refer the matter to the Tribunal(adjudicator) for direction.
But for the moment just complete the PE3, DO NOT SIGN YET, arrange to get your signature witnessed at your local court(free but might be delay) or solicitor(a small fee) at which point you then sign, email to TEC and make sure it's in time.
Is this clear?
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There is no NTO (Notice to Owner) stage for your PCN. The Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court upon receipt of your Statutory Declaration (SD) will order the Order for Recovery to be revoked and the Charge Certificate cancelled. The case should then be referred to the Adjudicator for direction on how to proceed, if TFL still want to enforce. The standing instruction from the Adjudicator is to re-serve the Notice of Rejection (NoR) where one has been issued and then lost in the post.
Upon receipt of the NoR you can either pay the PCN or appeal the matter to the Adjudicator.
We can discuss this further when you actually receive the new NoR, however at first sight I would then submit an appeal to the Adjudicator. The Adjudicator is likely to find that five months to issue and serve a Notice of Rejection is unreasonable, unless there are very good reasons for the delay. And will order the PCN cancelled.
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The 56 days does not apply to your PCN because it was served under a different Act of Parliament, but until you post the PCN we don't know the exact one, (there is more than one !)
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Thank you.
According to my research TFL have 56 days to respond to an appeal before it is nullified. But over the phone the representative from TFL was trying to convince me they have unlimited time to respond.
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Thanks.
On the PE3 form should I mention that I called TFL and they claimed to have sent the notice of rejection on 15 October - which is more than 5 months after I made the appeal.
And is this not grounds to have the PCN dismissed?
You do not need to enter anything in the 'Reasons' box.
For your information, TEC have no role in whether a PCN is cancelled or not. All you are doing is telling them you did not receive one of the statutory enforcement documents. This means they will, on getting your SD, order the OfR and CC to be cancelled, and the matter reverts back to the NtO stage at which point you can submit reps against it, or pay it.
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Thanks.
On the PE3 form should I mention that I called TFL and they claimed to have sent the notice of rejection on 15 October - which is more than 5 months after I made the appeal.
And is this not grounds to have the PCN dismissed?
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Should I fill in the Statutory Declaration form instead of the PE3 .
They are one and the same
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Should I fill in the Statutory Declaration form instead of the PE3 form? According to the letter the Statutory Declaration form included in the Order for Recovery also has to be witnessed.
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Submit the Statutory Declaration form which was included with the Order for Recovery. Tick the box that says you submitted representations against the PCN and did not receive a Notice of Rejection.
The PE3 SD will need to be witnessed. You can do this FOC at any convenient County Court. Phone first and check opening hours and make an appointment if told to do so.
Else a Solicitor can witness but will likely charge £8-10.
Scan the witness SD and scan it to a PDF. Attach the PDF to an email to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court. The email address is on the SD form. Include the PCN number in the email subject line.
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I received a PCN from Transport for London for the alleged contravention of performing a prohibited turn (no right turn). I appealed the PCN on 10 May and didn't hear anything from TFL until I received a charge certificate on 22 November. I called TFL and they said that they sent a notice of rejection on 15 October - which I didn't receive.
For arguments sake, even if a notice of rejection was sent, that's more than 5 months since my initial appeal. Don't TFL have a timeframe in which they have to send out a response?
PS I have now received the order for recovery, to which I believe I have to fill in the PE3 form. I understand the advice is to leave the "reasons" box blank but should I include the fact that I Called TFL after receiving a charge notice and they claimed to have sent a notice of rejection on the 15 of October.
Thanks