Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: Ranger on January 07, 2025, 03:17:15 pm

Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: NewJudge on January 08, 2025, 02:06:35 pm
I simply don’t understand why the court keeps asking you what are essentially the same questions, especially when they also provide you with confusing information:

The offences put to you and which require your confirmed pleas are;
 
   1   Speeding offence on 22/07/2024 at Worthing
 
You have admitted to the speeding offence...

Have you? As far as you have told us, you pleaded not guilty to both charges.
 
I don’t see any additional information that might cause you to change your mind (apart from incorrectly suggesting you have admitted to speeding). You still have no assurance that the s172 charge will be dropped.

Since you seem unable to get that confirmation I would simply wait for the court to give you a date for your hearing, attend and then make your offer then. You can do this by seeing the prosecutor before you are called into the courtroom or, if that is not possible, making your offer when you asked to confirm your plea.
Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: Ranger on January 07, 2025, 05:00:30 pm
Thanks for your advice so far—it’s been really helpful. Based on what I’ve learned here, I want to clarify my position with the court and confirm if they would accept the “deal” (i.e., pleading guilty to speeding in exchange for the Section 172 charge being dropped). However, the email I received doesn’t make this clear, and I’m unsure how to proceed.

Would it be best to:
   1.   Respond to the court now and explicitly ask if they are open to dropping the Section 172 charge in return for a guilty plea to speeding?
   2.   Wait for a formal summons to court to address both charges there?
   3.   Do something else entirely?

Here’s a copy of the email I received for context [Thank you for your response. If I could explain you are not being charged for not answering or receiving the notice of intended prosecution.
Your case has been passed to court in line with Sussex Police process and if you wish to change your plea to guilty you can ask the court to consider your mitigation (reasons).
 
The offences put to you and which require your confirmed pleas are;
 
   1   Speeding offence on 22/07/2024 at Worthing
 
You have admitted to the speeding offence and provided your mitigation (reasons) for the court to consider. Can you confirm whether you wish to change your plea to guilty to the offence of speeding to allow the court to consider your reasons (mitigation).
 
   2   S172 notice on 26/08/2024 please confirm if you wish to maintain your not guilty plea
 
S.172 Notice – Failing to provide the police with the identity of the driver
 
If you are intending to plead not guilty to this offence, you will need to provide supporting evidence at your trial.
 
Your options
With the additional information that has been provided to you above, please can you tell the court what you want your plea to be and whether you still want to come to court.
 
You can do this in an email to:surreysussextrafficplea@justice.gov.uk
 
You can:
 
   •   tell the court that you want to change your plea to guilty and ask the court to deal with your offence under the Single Justice Procedure. The court will decide if it can take your guilty plea and sentence you without a hearing. If the court cannot deal with your case without you there you will receive a summons to go to court.
 
   •   tell the court you are still not guilty. You will then get a summons to go to court for a trial hearing.
 
   •   not reply to this email. You will still get a summons to go to court.
 
If you are sent a summons, you must go to court on the date and time you are given. If you do not come to court the court may deal with you in your absence.]

Thanks in advance for your advice!
Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: NewJudge on January 07, 2025, 04:35:09 pm
The offer you have made in your opening paragraph above is she standard reply we would suggest in your circumstances. You need not have gone too deeply into the reasons why you did not respond to the s172 request.

Quote
My concern is whether I should now confirm my guilty plea for speeding, or should I continue with my not guilty plea for both and try to negotiate a deal with the court during a hearing. I’m trying to avoid focusing only on the speeding charge and would like the failure to provide charge to be taken into account, given my circumstances.

If the "deal" is accepted the circumstances surrounding the FtP charge are irrelevant. I will be dropped simply in return for your guilty plea to speeding and you will need to offer neither mitigation nor a defence.

At present it does not seem that you have an agreement to drop the s172 charge in return for a guilty plea to speeding and until you get that I would not enter such a guilty plea.

Your alternative is to defend the s172 charge on the basis that it was not "reasonably practical" for you to provide the required information because you did not receive the request and were not aware of it. If you succeed with that defence the speeding prosecution cannot succeed because the police have no evidence that you were driving. If you fail the court will impose a hefty fine and surcharge, costs in the region of £650, six points and an insurance-crippling endorsement which will see you face increased premiums for up to five years.
Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: Ranger on January 07, 2025, 04:10:13 pm
To clarify, when I submitted my online plea, I initially pleaded not guilty to both charges (speeding and failure to provide), and I provided my reasons for each in the online boxes. However, in the same submission, I also indicated that I would be willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence if the failure to provide charge (S172) is dropped.

The reason I am asking for the failure to provide charge to be reconsidered is due to personal circumstances described above.

My concern is whether I should now confirm my guilty plea for speeding, or should I continue with my not guilty plea for both and try to negotiate a deal with the court during a hearing. I’m trying to avoid focusing only on the speeding charge and would like the failure to provide charge to be taken into account, given my circumstances.


You’re right to point out the confusion about the email’s wording. To clarify, the email from the court mentions the Section 172 notice, but it doesn’t explicitly say what the charge is. The email says:

“You are not being charged for not answering or receiving the notice of intended prosecution.”

Then it lists the offences like this:

“The offences put to you and which require your confirmed pleas are;
   1.   Speeding offence on 22/07/2024 at Worthing
   2.   S172 notice on 26/08/2024.”

It doesn’t clarify whether the second offence is about failing to respond to the notice or something else, such as failing to provide the driver’s details.

I mistakenly added an asterisk (*) in my previous response, which wasn’t in the original email from the court. I now realize that this was an error on my part, and I apologize for any confusion it may have caused. There’s no asterisk in the email itself, and it doesn’t explain anything further about the Section 172 notice.

I’m assuming the second charge refers to the Section 172 offence, which typically relates to failing to provide driver details, but the email doesn’t specify this. I hope this clears things up.
Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: NewJudge on January 07, 2025, 03:49:18 pm
Quote
I am admitting to being the driver of the vehicle that was speeding.

When you say "I am admitting to being the driver..." do you mean you are willing to do so, or do you mean that you have already done so (and if so, to whom and how)?

Their explanation makes no sense:

Quote
If I could explain you are not being charged for not answering or receiving the notice of intended prosecution.

Then...

Quote
*The offences put to you and which require your confirmed pleas are;
  1.  Speeding offence on 22/07/2024 at Worthing
  2.  S172 notice on 26/08/2024*

Does it say anything about the section 172 notice or does it leave you to presume the charge is failing to respond to it? Is there anything to explain what the asterisks (*) mean?
Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: Ranger on January 07, 2025, 03:48:21 pm
Here’s the court’s latest response:

Thank you for your response. If I could explain you are not being charged for not answering or receiving the notice of intended prosecution. Your case has been passed to court in line with Sussex Police process and if you wish to change your plea to guilty you can ask the court to consider your mitigation (reasons).

*The offences put to you and which require your confirmed pleas are;
   1.   Speeding offence on 22/07/2024 at Worthing
   2.   S172 notice on 26/08/2024*

If you wish to change your plea to guilty to this offence, you will need to provide your reasons (mitigation).

Please confirm if you wish to maintain your not guilty plea to S.172 and whether you still want to come to court.

The court has given me the option to plead guilty to the speeding charge and provide mitigation. However, I still want to challenge the S.172 charge because I didn’t receive the NIP and I wasn’t living at my usual address when the notice was sent.

My question:
Should I reply to the court’s email confirming my guilty plea to speeding and ask for mitigation, or should I maintain my not guilty plea for both offences and go to court to argue my case for the S.172?

I’m worried that if I plead guilty to speeding now, the court might focus on the S.172 offence and won’t fully consider my personal circumstances (such as being evicted and not having a fixed address during the time the NIP was sent).

Thanks for any advice!
Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: Ranger on January 07, 2025, 03:40:52 pm
I am admitting to being the driver of the vehicle that was speeding. However, I did not receive the Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) or the Section 172 request to identify the driver because, during that time, I was in a temporary housing situation after being evicted from my mother’s home. As I was unable to collect any mail, I did not receive the notice in time to respond. I did not intentionally fail to respond, but due to these circumstances, I missed the opportunity to provide the requested information.
Title: Re: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: andy_foster on January 07, 2025, 03:31:49 pm
On the face of it, you have clearly set out the relevant facts, variously as bullet points and number lists. "On the face of it" being the operative term.

You have told us very clearly that you did not receive the NIP or incorporated s. 172 requirement.
You subsequently (albeit in the same post) tell us that the court acknowledged your admission of being the driver.

This is not Twin Peaks, and you are not David Lynch. Also, most of us are not dentists and are not qualified to pull teeth.
Title: Advice Needed: Speeding (37 in a 30) and S.172 (Failure to Notify) Charges
Post by: Ranger on January 07, 2025, 03:17:15 pm
Hi all,

I’m seeking advice on how to handle my case involving two charges:
1. Speeding - 37mph in a 30mph zone
2. Failure to provide driver details (S.172)

Here’s the timeline of what happened:
• July 2024: The speeding offence occurred.
• August 2024: A Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) and S.172 request were sent to my previous address. This address was my mother’s house, but I had been evicted by her shortly beforehand. She did not allow me anywhere near the property, so I was unable to collect my letters. During this time, I did not have a fixed address or a stable place to stay and was temporarily moving between friends’ homes. This situation made it impossible for me to receive or respond to the notice.
• November 2024: I became aware of the case when further communication reached me through other means.
• December 2024: I pleaded not guilty to both charges via the online system, explaining that I didn’t receive the NIP/S.172 notice due to my eviction and unstable living situation.

Court’s Response
The court acknowledged my not guilty plea but provided clarification that the case has been passed to court in line with police procedures. I was asked to confirm my plea for both charges:
1. For speeding, they acknowledged my admission of being the driver but wanted me to confirm whether I wish to plead guilty, as the speeding offence would then be dealt with based on my mitigation.
2. For S.172, they outlined what evidence or defences would be required to contest the charge at trial.

Their email noted that I can either:
• Change my plea to guilty for the speeding offence and provide mitigation, while the S.172 charge would proceed to trial.
• Maintain a not guilty plea for both and attend court for a full hearing.

My Circumstances
At the time the NIP and S.172 were sent, I was dealing with a very difficult personal situation. I had been evicted by my mother and was not allowed anywhere near her property, so I could not retrieve my post. I did not have a fixed address or a stable place to stay, moving between friends’ homes and trying to arrange stable housing. It wasn’t until November that I became aware of this case.


My Current Thoughts
I understand that courts sometimes drop the S.172 charge if someone pleads guilty to the speeding offence, but this hasn’t been explicitly stated. I’m worried that if I plead guilty to speeding via email now, I might lose the opportunity to explain my circumstances in person and negotiate for the S.172 charge to be withdrawn.

I want to resolve this fairly and am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence, but I also want to avoid the harsher penalties of the S.172 charge, which would add six points to my licence and increase my insurance premiums significantly.

My Question:
Should I plead guilty to the speeding charge via email now and deal with the S.172 separately, or should I maintain a not guilty plea for both offences and attend court to negotiate a resolution (e.g., plead guilty to speeding in exchange for the S.172 charge being dropped)?

I’d really appreciate your advice on the best way to respond to the court’s latest email. Thank you in advance!