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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: blad4 on August 29, 2023, 03:58:00 pm

Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on November 14, 2023, 03:54:02 pm
Thank you so much again Ivan! You completely relieved me of the stress of appealing, then most probably losing, as well as the money saved. And all executed with extreme precision and professionalism!! Thank you
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on November 05, 2023, 11:46:04 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1uO4vGI2oqMEn4AfG0PX8a90jO0Imon3E).
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on September 23, 2023, 07:37:40 pm
Definitely! I would be so grateful.

And yep, I’ll send you the PDF confirmation of the appeal they sent me which includes the two links whenever convenient.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on September 23, 2023, 03:03:22 pm
Well we now have the council on the hook for telling you a blatant lie. Providing you put the links I sent you by PM to add into the representation, they've not clicked on them and the below time-stamped screenshot shows that as of right now they've still not looked a them:

(https://i.imgur.com/TDeBxUS.png)

Paragraph 1(7) of Schedule 1 to the 2003 Act says:

(7)It shall be the duty of the enforcing authority to whom representations are duly made under this paragraph—
(a) to consider them and any supporting evidence which the person making them provides; and
(b) to serve on that person notice of their decision as to whether they accept that the ground in question has been established.

They've obviously not fulfilled their duty to consider "any supporting evidence which the person making them provides", so I think an appeal on this point should succeed.

It's obviously an untested strategy, but it should work (I don't see how an adjudicator would say it's OK for the council to not only ignore but not even bother looking at your supporting evidence) and as they've not reoffered the discount, it's a no-brainer to carry on.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on September 22, 2023, 07:51:09 pm
Rejection received, seems like a cookie-cutter response because they're just mentioning all the routes including Bonfield Road which I never even knew of before.

(https://i.ibb.co/dg0V0Fg/photo-3-2023-09-22-19-42-29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dg0V0Fg)(https://i.ibb.co/Ctbh6vW/photo-1-2023-09-22-19-42-29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ctbh6vW)(https://i.ibb.co/VwgGbxm/photo-2-2023-09-22-19-42-29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VwgGbxm) (https://i.ibb.co/bvQcV4v/photo-7-2023-09-22-19-42-29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bvQcV4v) (https://i.ibb.co/4pdk6SB/photo-6-2023-09-22-19-42-29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4pdk6SB) (https://i.ibb.co/mNN8bM2/photo-4-2023-09-22-19-42-29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNN8bM2) (https://i.ibb.co/FwbyB6c/photo-5-2023-09-22-19-42-29.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FwbyB6c)

Here is the map of what I described in green, the red marker shows the junction they are talking of

(https://i.ibb.co/Rvm9M1r/bonfield-way.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TvSknZj)
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on September 11, 2023, 12:20:06 pm
I've sent you two links, one for fig 1 and one for fig 2, just add the links directly into the text of your representation.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on September 11, 2023, 12:14:43 pm
They are not in the folder sorry, I drew them while writing the appeal, so I've PM'd you a link to both the files. If you could kindly add them into there, I've modified the appeal this way to accomodate:

Dear Sirs

PCN x VRM x

I make these representations on the following grounds:

<<Not sure what to put here, as specifically I will be clicking the 'I wish to challenge my PCN for another reason' option in the appeal form?>>

Fig.1 is Lewisham council's first photographic evidence in their PCN. It is edited it to display a green rectangle to show exactly where the driver was parked stationary as the driver had reason to leave the car, and a red line indicating where the first frame of the Lewisham council's video footage begins. The two red circles indicate the two lamposts displaying the signage specific to this case.

The driver parked here after turning into Lewis Grove from Lee High Road, and the only signage until then was a warning of a Bus, Cycle and Taxi lane 240 yards ahead. The next sign, infront of the parked position in fig.1 and in the google street view image (fig.2) states the lane is now 160 yards ahead, but the lane marking is now solid white (marked in red).

As the solid lane marking ends at the junction with Mercia Grove, and in the driver's perspective the assumed final warning sign of the impeeding restriction is also in clear view, one naturally assumes the safest thing to do is to turn back on oneself toward Lee High Road. At this point, it is impossible to assume that the other lane is also restricted.

During the turn, in which the space in Mercia Grove as well as the broken lane markings are utilised, the signage is only visible once the driver is face on having completed the turn. Using the council's own video footage in the earliest stage of the recording (red line, fig.1) it is clear to see the driver is too close to the signage to have actually had ample time to react to them. This can be simplified by asking why the council's cameras do not begin recording at a reasonable distance from the signage as to effectively rule out this situation from occurring. Images GSV 1,2,3, and 4 are depicting the entire route, and only in the last one does the driver have a chance to view the signs. Please note these are angles taken from Google street view, and were not the exact angles of the driver, who also had to navigate this road at ~1am, with no signs of other traffic as to have obtained any forewarning of any restriction on the adjacent lane. The images can be found here * link *.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on September 11, 2023, 11:53:37 am
Quote from: blad4 on September 11, 2023, 11:35:57 am
Sorry to be a pest, just confirming that's OK to send in the thread? I'm struggling a tad with the heading/section to refer to, but if it doesn't matter too much also then if you kindly confirm for me it will help, and I'll submit it today
Which image in your dropbox folder is "Fig.1" and which one is "fig.2"?
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on September 09, 2023, 12:33:02 am
Quote from: blad4 on September 06, 2023, 03:20:19 pm
I can send this, and attach my own photos referred to as fig 1 and 2?
No, the whole point is that you tell them the photos are at that link I sent you. If you simply attach them to the representation, they'll claim they carefully considered them and you'll have no way of knowing (let alone proving) whether they did or not.

Just replace fig.1 and fig.2 with the names of the files in your dropbox folder.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on September 06, 2023, 03:20:19 pm
I can send this, and attach my own photos referred to as fig 1 and 2?

Dear Sirs

PCN x VRM x

I make these representations on the following grounds:

<<Not sure what to put here, as specifically I will be clicking the 'I wish to challenge my PCN for another reason' option in the appeal form?>>

Fig.1 is Lewisham council's first photographic evidence in their PCN. It is edited it to display a green rectangle to show exactly where the driver was parked stationary as the driver had reason to leave the car, and a red line indicating where the first frame of the Lewisham council's video footage begins. The two red circles indicate the two lamposts displaying the signage specific to this case.

The driver parked here after turning into Lewis Grove from Lee High Road, and the only signage until then was a warning of a Bus, Cycle and Taxi lane 240 yards ahead. The next sign, infront of the parked position in fig.1 and in the google street view image (fig.2) states the lane is now 160 yards ahead, but the lane marking is now solid white (marked in red).

As the solid lane marking ends at the junction with Mercia Grove, and in the driver's perspective the assumed final warning sign of the impeeding restriction is also in clear view, one naturally assumes the safest thing to do is to turn back on oneself toward Lee High Road. At this point, it is impossible to assume that the other lane is also restricted.

During the turn, in which the space in Mercia Grove as well as the broken lane markings are utilised, the signage is only visible once the driver is face on having completed the turn. Using the council's own video footage in the earliest stage of the recording (red line, fig.1) it is clear to see the driver is too close to the signage to have actually had ample time to react to them. This can be simplified by asking why the council's cameras do not begin recording at a reasonable distance from the signage as to effectively rule out this situation from occurring. Images GSV 1,2,3, and 4 can be found here * link * depicting the entire route, and only in the last one does the driver have a chance to view the signs. Please note these are angles taken from Google street view, and were not the exact angles of the driver, who also had to navigate this road at ~1am, with no signs of other traffic as to have obtained any forewarning of any restriction on the adjacent lane.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on September 05, 2023, 04:29:24 pm
Dear Sirs

PCN x VRM x

I make these representations on the following grounds:

<<Not sure what to put here, as specifically I will be clicking the 'I wish to challenge my PCN for another reason' option in the appeal form?>>

Edit: deleted until tomorrow
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on September 04, 2023, 11:11:20 pm
I have PM'ed you a link, all you need to do is submit a representation referencing that url. Honestly it doesn't matter too much what you say so feel free to draft something yourself.

If the council doesn't look at the evidence (which is a distinct possibility) the click count of the short URL will be zero, and we can then prove they failed to consider the representations, which will win at the tribunal regardless of anything else.

Feel free to put a draft on here first.

Of course there's no guarantee that they won't open that link, but in the absence of any better ideas it's worth a shot.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on August 31, 2023, 12:38:35 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on August 31, 2023, 12:18:09 am
I might have hatched a plan, can you please put all the photos you've got in a google drive or dropbox folder and post a link on here?

I made a tidied up collection and PM'd you for now, as my DP account shows my full name etc.

I made a zip of the folder for the purpose of the thread: https://we.tl/t-JM6N3ozsTQ

If any issues let me know, I'll make a new DP account or something
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on August 31, 2023, 12:18:09 am
I might have hatched a plan, can you please put all the photos you've got in a google drive or dropbox folder and post a link on here?
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on August 30, 2023, 07:11:49 pm
Thanks for the reply. So you would deem this not worth appealing? Even if one could argue the first frame of the video shows the car, at maximum, 5 or so metres past the signs? After doing a 3-point-turn, how would one be expected so see and then even react to it correctly?
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: Incandescent on August 30, 2023, 04:14:35 pm
I have to say, looking carefully at the video, it starts with your car coming round the curve by the junction with the side street, so you must have passed the two signs, and your U-turn was much further away than you thought.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on August 30, 2023, 03:19:12 pm
Yep sorry, point #2 explains my intent to turn. I was parked up there in the lay-by. If I had turned there, it would have been fine. However, I went up the road and turned, and I can't remember exactly where I did this? I just know what I did and why, but not the exact positioning/coordinates?
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on August 30, 2023, 02:06:07 pm
Quote from: blad4 on August 29, 2023, 03:58:00 pm
#2
Depicting from a daytime google streets screenshot, my intent to do a U-turn after parking here (infront of the white van)
(https://i.ibb.co/6PNHKGJ/5-pics.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6PNHKGJ)
The first frame of the video shows that you were much further back than that:

(https://i.imgur.com/Mqkf3Lv.png)

This places you in line with the northern kerb line of Mercia Grove, meaning you would have been more or less here (https://goo.gl/maps/WiseBu5AunCpkGqv9).

Where exactly did you perform this u-turn please?
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on August 30, 2023, 01:07:55 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on August 29, 2023, 09:54:17 pm
So, U-turning as you did, you never actually passed the two signs in your daylight photo.

It seems I didn't. The off-side sign is next to the second green shop away from the blue shop. Near side is even further away than that

Here are all remaining pages of the PCN:

(https://i.ibb.co/mG4F5rH/letter3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mG4F5rH) (https://i.ibb.co/JyXV9w6/letter4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JyXV9w6)
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: Incandescent on August 29, 2023, 09:54:17 pm
So, U-turning as you did, you never actually passed the two signs in your daylight photo.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: cp8759 on August 29, 2023, 08:11:07 pm
Please could you either put the VRM on here, or DM it to me? I'd like to check something.

Also please post the remaining pages of the PCN.
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on August 29, 2023, 04:21:10 pm
Thanks, edited and added
Title: Re: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: Pastmybest on August 29, 2023, 03:59:45 pm
we need to see the video
Title: Lewisham, NSL, code 33 e, bus, cycle lane, Lewis Grove
Post by: blad4 on August 29, 2023, 03:58:00 pm
Hi all, basically the same situation as here http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=102692

I have gone back to the location to take my own pictures at night. https://goo.gl/maps/kNJ5EsfuQMk1ztJf8

#1
Their correspondence
(https://i.ibb.co/zrB3K17/1-pics.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zrB3K17) (https://i.ibb.co/SBWs6sh/letter1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SBWs6sh) (https://i.ibb.co/rGsB3sp/letter2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rGsB3sp)
Their video
https://streamable.com/ba4so0

#2
Depicting from a daytime google streets screenshot, my intent to do a U-turn after parking here (infront of the white van)
(https://i.ibb.co/6PNHKGJ/5-pics.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6PNHKGJ)

#3
An up to date picture taken at night, the 'express nails' shop is circled in green, because it seems that is where the first photo is taken of my car.
(https://i.ibb.co/s6Dr45D/6-pics.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s6Dr45D)