Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: C_H_R_I_S on January 06, 2025, 04:36:41 pm
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here are photos in attached pdf of the poor signage. It is very vague messaging and the signage is difficult to read and see. As many have said the full messaging can only be read once you have already turned into the road... [attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4]
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I had my a response to my email (sent 12th Jan) and my PCN cancelled today. Here's the body of the email I sent:
I understand this to be due to breaching the recently introduced LTN on Rivercourt Road. As someone who does not live locally and does not visit the area frequently I was not aware of the introduction of this and it was my first time driving on this road. On further research, I understand that drivers using the road earlier on in its implementation, only a few weeks before I visited, were issued a warning instead of a PCN to make them aware of the change, but as a visitor this would not have included myself.
I would like to make the following observations regarding the restriction and its corresponding signage:
- Approaching from the A4 westbound (meant to say from the west, oops), there was no previous signage regarding the LTN to inform of the upcoming restriction on Rivercourt Road. There is only one sign on the turn into the road notifying drivers of the restriction. Due to the nature of exiting a dual carriageway to a side road and therefore faster traffic approaching from behind as I turned in, my focus was on the road and turning safely as I entered Rivercourt Road. Due to the height and location of the sign I expect it was only briefly in view, and did not notice it on approach. This is why I believe it would be effective to have earlier warning on the A4 when there are not as many fast changing factors that can make it easy to not register the sign, particularly considering that it is one of multiple restriction signs on entry to the road, despite this particular sign having relevance to the most people.
- Had I noticed the sign indicating the restriction, I would not have been comfortable using the area described as a turning bay to exit back to the A4. I do not believe that the area is sufficiently large, given the turning circle of my car, to turn the car around safely and quickly. It would also present a safety hazard for any following cars that wished to turn into Rivercourt Road as I would be blocking the entry as I performed the manoeuvre leaving them stationary and exposed to the moving traffic on the A4 for longer than necessary. This therefore would only leave the option of reversing back on to the A4, however as seen in the video attached to the PCN, there is continuous, fast, traffic on the road and as a result would be unsafe, not to mention in breach of Rule 201 of the UK Highway Code.
Considering the above circumstances, I kindly request that the PCN be reviewed and the matter closed. I will ensure to use alternative routes when travelling in the area in future.
Their response essentially reiterated the nature of the restriction and that a picture there are indeed signs there. I did think the picture did a great job supporting my point that it's not easy to take in all the signs at once, to be fair.
(https://i.imgur.com/WumfxTV.png)
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Just catching up with this thread.
I haven't yet had a reply to my email sent to LBHF parking Services so I'll send it again plus I'll have to submit the PCN challenge so I don't get walloped with the higher penalty charge.
But it would be really helpful to see the letter/email exchange between CHRIS and the parking team at LBHF as further support for my challenge.
Many thanks in advance.
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Well done ;D
Please to post up their letter to help others.
+1
we really do need to see that letter.
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nice work! well done
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Well done ;D
Please to post up their letter to help others.
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UPDATE:
THey have cancelled the PCN from my informal email..
I just received it when about to appeal :)
Still this road restriction is going to cause a lot of chaos..
I hope a few people go to court on this and get it lifted
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I sent an informal letter but havent heard back yet so Im going to make the first appeal with the usual process.
Could you help me draft it on the grounds of their being poor signage on a fast road and no way to turn back around?
Thank you.
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I've sent an email to Parking Services to request that the PCN is revoked as their own website referred to first time contraventions leading to a warning notice and that's clearly what they did for other motorists.
Was this email sent as a formal representation against the PCN ? It's important to follow the process, so you get, (inevitably), a letter of refusal that then allows you to register an appeal at London Tribunals
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Hi, I posted on the original thread about being served with a PCN for a "contravention" on 21.12.24.
I found Raj's very helpful information about their experience, so I've sent an email to Parking Services to request that the PCN is revoked as their own website referred to first time contraventions leading to a warning notice and that's clearly what they did for other motorists.
And of course I've also mentioned the completely inadequate/non-existent warnings/ signage on the A4 ahead of the turn into Rivercourt Road.
I'll let you know how I get on.
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totally agree with @H C Andersen. this system is not viable as it stands. warning signs should be on the A4 regarding this and also a turning circle should be built incase people have to turn away.
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Using an iPad I simply get two photos but no video.
OP, I want to see the complete layout of signs located at the entrance. Your photo suggests a traffic sign restricting the entry of lorries above four associated plates, the flying motorcycle sign and what appears to be another 'zone' sign (I can just make out the end of 'zone').
How a motorist would be expected to take in all this info, I don't know.
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if nothing works perhaps you could appeal stating you haven't received a warning letter for the 1st contravention as the council did confirm that 1st timers are being letoff with a warning letter.
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Correct I have drove down this road many times.
Attempting to reverse and turn out of that road would be extremely dangerous and is a very good point.
I have informally emailled them asking for a warning instead but otherwise will mention the non existent warnings and the inadequate signage at entrance
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Has the OP posted the video?
No, but I looked at it using the info on the PCN, and it shows the OP driving in without any hesitation.
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Has the OP posted the video?
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Google and Apple Maps haven’t updated yet. This new road layout is setup around the end of nov 2024 I believe.
https://www.hammersmithsociety.org.uk/rivercourt-road-a-new-two-way-ltn/.
Another point of appeal could be the lack of new turning circle/ bay for reversing out of the road. But for this argument, footage of subject pausing at the entrance or attempts to turn back would prove a strong case.
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Having now looked at GSV September 2024, it seems there are no signs warning of the upcoming restriction, which for a 40 mph road is quite disgraceful, so I suggest you submit representations that the signage for this restriction is totally inadequate. The only approach is a left turn from the Great West Road (A4), which has a speed limit of 40 mph, and there is no warning whatsoever of the restriction on approach.
The previous street on the left, Weltje Road is only an exit with No Entry signs, but here, the junction has been remodelled to only allow exit, the entry space has been removed and the footway extended: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5Axt1bfRHjvQUA7a6
In addition, the No Entry signs are clearly visible on approach, so advance warning is not so important.
It is quite clear here that the council have failed in their duty under LATOR Regulation 18, to place adequate signage for the restriction. This may be because signage on the Great West Road is the responsibility of Transport for London, and the council have failed to involve TfL in the signing of this restriction, or indeed, to even engage in consultations with them in accordance with LATOR Regulation 6
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents
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This is the signage at the entrance of the road. To my knowledge no other permanent signs on the main road leading to this.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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How many times have you driven over this road since dec 1st 2024 ? Been told that 1st offence is being let off with a warning .
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I am willing to go to court for this as the restriction is ridiculous and the signage even worse.
There is no "court", but you can take them to London Tribunals. The restriction may be ridiculous to you, but will be within a Traffic Regulation Order, so saying it is ridiculous will not win any appeal. However the council have a duty under LATOR Regulation 8 to place adequate signage to indicate the restriction.
Note that the signage is not "tiny", but quite large, and there are normally two of them one each side of the restriction. For access off this very busy road, the council should have placed an advance warning sign on the main road, so is there one there ?
The video shows you charging in at quite a pace so it seems clear you didn't notice the signs, that are commonly called "Flying motorbike " signs, because there is a diagram of a motorbike above that for a car. It seems to me that this is what caught you out: -
Turned left off a 40mph Busy A road which ive used for years
Anyway, if you can confirm whether there is any advance warning sign, please, as GSV is not sufficiently up-to-date it seems.
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H&F is often forgiving of a first time PCN for moving traffic contraventions at newish restrictions so a polite ask may do it plus a note about signage.
Were you going anywhere local?
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Seems this same area is getting a lot of traction:
Same in this thread:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-hammersith-london-rivercourt-rd/
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Turned left off a 40mph Busy A road which ive used for years
Turns out there is now a tiny sign there AFTER the turn saying you cant unless you have a resident permit!
What is happening to our roads these days! :'( >:(
Images of PCN:
(https://i.ibb.co/w09dF4M/IMG-9379.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/hMWcvnd/IMG-9380.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3Sz8MWv/IMG-9381.jpg)
Coordinates of turn - Google Not updated with latest sign post: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4913991,-0.2365586,3a,75y,95.37h,83.83t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9upYEORyBaITDvU1DLs9iQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D6.174312605000438%26panoid%3D9upYEORyBaITDvU1DLs9iQ%26yaw%3D95.36975487709302!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
My reason to appeal would be insufficient signage but im not sure how to word it or add anything else.
I am willing to go to court for this as the restriction is ridiculous and the signage even worse.