Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: nattyht on January 04, 2025, 08:04:29 pm
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However, GSV May 2022 shows these signs which shouldn't be there anymore: -
I can confirm that these repeater signs are still there
Thank you for providing the template. I will send that message in via the Greenwich Council PCN portal fro challenge
ALSO I have now further uploaded the evidence photos they took, none of which show the signage: https://imgur.com/a/wf3MFv8
So, if you had parked and walked back from your car along Meadowside you would have seen these signs, and the text including "....beyond this point". So any motorist would think that he had parked outside the permit area. I suggest you take photos of these signs for use in a formal rep and later, if necessary at adjudication.
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There are some allowed cases here because Greenwich as with other councils sometimes just doesn't provide sufficient evidence.
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Case reference 2240412762
Contravention location MEADOWSIDE
Decision Date 16 Oct 2024
The Appellant is appealing a PCN issued in respect of parking in a specified "KE" permit holder only space at the location.
The Appellant has not attended the hearing today nor provided any explanation of his non-attendance. I therefore find it proportionate to decide the matter in his absence.
The Council relies upon the contemporaneous evidence of the Civil Enforcement Officer, a copy of the PCN, a copy of the relevant legislation and correspondence.
The Appellant contends that the signage at the location is not sufficient.
I have carefully considered all the evidence in this matter.
There is no dispute that the vehicle was parked at the location. The Council contends that the location falls within a Controlled Parking Zone which is in operation between 9am and 6.30pm Monday to Saturday inclusive. However, the EA has not provided any photographic evidence of relevant signage at the Zone's entry points. There are no carriageway markings (such as a yellow line or bay markings) indicating any restrictions. The sign relied upon by the EA, which indicates the restriction relied upon, is behind the vehicle and relatively small and I find it could be easily missed by a driver parking on the street.
I therefore allow this appeal.
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Case reference 2170102144
Contravention location Meadowside
Decision Date 08 Apr 2017
Mr Brice attended today. He appeals as he states that he saw no signs or road markings in Meadowside at the time that he parked his car. Mr Brice provides photographs of the location.
The local authority states that Meadowside is within a permit parking area that is operational Monday to Saturday 9am to 6.30pm. Within a permit parking area there is no requirement for any marked bays. Motorists are alerted to the parking area by a sign at the entrance to the area. There is no requirement for the local authority to erect any repeater signs within the area however it is advisable to erect repeater signs particularly in a long road. The local authority confirms that Meadowside is a long road. Mr Brice estimated that the road is about 500 yards.
The local authority has provided a photograph of a sign at the entrance to Meadowside. I have seen no evidence of the distance of that sign from the location where Mr Brice parked his car. The local authority provides no evidence that there are any repeater signs. The photographs taken by the appellant do not show any signs.
I am not satisfied on the evidence that I have seen that the entry sign to the zone alone is sufficient to alert motorists parking some distance away that Meadowside is a permit parking area.
I allow this appeal.
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However, GSV May 2022 shows these signs which shouldn't be there anymore: -
I can confirm that these repeater signs are still there
Thank you for providing the template. I will send that message in via the Greenwich Council PCN portal fro challenge
ALSO I have now further uploaded the evidence photos they took, none of which show the signage: https://imgur.com/a/wf3MFv8
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The only signs that really count are those where you entered the zone. The GSV view, (October 2024) shows one of the zone signs shifted sideways and thus unreadable, but the other is in plain site. Neither sign is illuminated, so could be missed if you drove there at night. However the council have put up repeater signs that should have alerted you, but there isn't one at the parking location, although there is a suspiciously new pole with no sign on it near your car.
However further virtual 'tootling' around in GSV shows the entry signs at the other end of Meadowside: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/45EiGsVsVCt1mQo48
However, GSV May 2022 shows these signs which shouldn't be there anymore: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NGgUCaXa7wwv4MLb7
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QZS8hnQYYXooX9WWA
So are they now removed ?
Well worth submitting representations in my view. It will give us time to see how dreadful their admin of the enforcement process is, as this can win an adjudication on its own despite any contravention.
At this informal reps stage, there's not point in writing pages of text, just something simple like: -
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at Meadowside
I refute responsibility for liability for the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.
On the late and very dark evening in question, I parked on Meadowside and saw no signs nearby that advised that parking was barred to non-permit holders at the time the PCN was served. As you will no doubt be aware, councils have a duty to place adequate signage advising motorists of parking restrictions. Clearly this duty has not been discharged.
I therefore await your reply telling me that the PCN has been cancelled.
YOUrs faithfully
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Thank you for the response
Okay so the repeater signs are not a reason for a challenge? I thought those repeater signs marked the start of the zone rather than the ones on the east end of Meadowside/ Barlow Terrace (and therefore I thought I was outside).
Is the twisted sign enough for a challenge?
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A quick Look - I can see repeater signs in Meadowside, which there should be in a permit parking area of more than a small size. One of the entry signs on Gerrard Way is twisted on the Google Maps view.
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Parked in an area on Barlow Terrace / Meadowside in south east london SE9 (Google Maps location https://maps.app.goo.gl/3eKDmtxkt5WDX89w6)
Got a PCN for:
"Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge (shared use bay)"
However there was no sign or yellows where the car was parked. The only thing I apparently missed was the sign on entrance to the area that says "permit holders only parking past this point". however I entered, very far from the parking location, on Gerrard street after dark (https://maps.app.goo.gl/mVob4h5T8Tx5VEqw7). The sign nearest to the car is on the east end of Barlow Terrace / Meadowside (https://maps.app.goo.gl/MPMcEZMRvLM7tzCx9).
Confusingly these permit holders restriction signs appear again at the west end of Barlow Terrace / Meadowside (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ssQ5VY5fKAJM6eDz9), leading me to believe I had left the restricted zone when driving south down Meadowside from Gerrard Street.
Do I have a case for challenging?
Images of the PCN and car parked, here: https://imgur.com/a/wf3MFv8