Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Merc220 on August 29, 2023, 11:23:50 am

Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on January 13, 2024, 06:44:28 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1_W0q_6rxeYzoAthJEw376w_omygFqdRX).
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on November 10, 2023, 06:10:01 pm
I have just responded
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on November 10, 2023, 04:06:09 pm
You've missed the deadline so we need to submit an out of time appeal, this needs to be done today.

Please respond to my PM if you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on November 10, 2023, 01:54:23 pm
https://photos.app.goo.gl/D5j3eRS1wERnKK2r5
Please see the refusal letter
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: John U.K. on November 10, 2023, 12:13:22 pm
Please post up the refusal.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: guest46 on November 10, 2023, 11:09:45 am
What did the refusal say?
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on November 10, 2023, 11:03:44 am
Hi,
They have refused my appeal. They sent me the letter on 11th October. I had 28 days to appeal. I think today is the last day. What should I do now
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on October 03, 2023, 01:04:31 pm
Honestly it doesn't matter what boxes you tick.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on October 03, 2023, 11:44:08 am
Yes, we don't need to add anything.
Do I need to tick the "F (procedural impropriety)"?
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on October 01, 2023, 01:40:49 am
Yes, we don't need to add anything.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on October 01, 2023, 12:40:37 am
Go online and make representations again as follows:

Dear Essex County Council,

I refer you to my informal representations, which I require you to reconsider afresh.

Yours faithfully,

Is that it ?
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on September 30, 2023, 10:32:34 pm
Go online and make representations again as follows:

Dear Essex County Council,

I refer you to my informal representations, which I require you to reconsider afresh.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on September 29, 2023, 10:39:00 am
I have received the Notice to the owner.
Please see attached.
Please advise the next step

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on September 13, 2023, 11:56:23 am
If they still don't accept my appeal, I will have to pay £70 instead of £35.
No, it's not up to the council to decide whether you have to pay or not. If the council rejects your representation, you can appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

In any case as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner promptly the council will reoffer the discount, because they want to give you a discount not to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

If you have to appeal to the tribunal, I'm happy to act as your representative. We don't advise to appeal unless we think you're likely to win.
perfect, thank you
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on September 12, 2023, 11:53:19 pm
If they still don't accept my appeal, I will have to pay £70 instead of £35.
No, it's not up to the council to decide whether you have to pay or not. If the council rejects your representation, you can appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

In any case as long as you challenge the Notice to Owner promptly the council will reoffer the discount, because they want to give you a discount not to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

If you have to appeal to the tribunal, I'm happy to act as your representative. We don't advise to appeal unless we think you're likely to win.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on September 12, 2023, 01:22:16 am
Wait for the Notice to Owner and let us know when you've received it.
Isn't that risky ?
What risks do you have in mind?
If they still don't accept my appeal, I will have to pay £70 instead of £35.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on September 12, 2023, 12:12:54 am
Wait for the Notice to Owner and let us know when you've received it.
Isn't that risky ?
What risks do you have in mind?
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Incandescent on September 11, 2023, 10:31:49 pm
Wait for the Notice to Owner and let us know when you've received it.
Isn't that risky ?
Risky in what way ?
If you want to progress your case to a conclusion, rather than just cough-up the money, you have to wait for the NtO. This allows you to submit formal representations. Then, if rejected again, to register an appeal at the adjudicators.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on September 11, 2023, 09:32:57 pm
Wait for the Notice to Owner and let us know when you've received it.
Isn't that risky ?
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on September 11, 2023, 09:12:28 pm
Wait for the Notice to Owner and let us know when you've received it.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on September 11, 2023, 11:50:27 am
They have refused my appeal . What should I do next. Please see attached

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: H C Andersen on August 31, 2023, 07:31:27 am

Actually it supports my concerns.

In the cited case there was a single 'charging authority' whose development of detailed 'Business Rules' determined by them and required to be used by the single operator was found to be sound. The 2000 Act places no requirement upon the charging authority to have regard to any Statutory Guidance.

The point in my post is not whether the 'partnership' could enforce PCNs, it's whether the local authority with civil parking enforcement powers in this case has considered the revised guidance and imparted their determination on to the partnership as it acts on their behalf.

The partnership is not a 'local authority', it cannot develop its own rules(in the Halton case it was always the council in control)and there must be evidence that the local authority for this location has considered the guidance.

IMO.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on August 31, 2023, 12:12:38 am
The guidance is issued to 'local authorities' (which also have 'civil parking enforcement powers') not parking partnerships. IMO, the local authority in whose area the contravention occurred has to have had regard to the guidance and similarly is the only body which may determine the exercise of discretion.
The law on the delegation of duties under these statutory schemes was blown out of the water by Halton Borough Council, R (On the Application Of) v Road User Charging Adjudicators [2023] EWHC 303 (Admin) (https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2023/303.pdf)
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: H C Andersen on August 30, 2023, 05:52:04 pm
The cited cases are all based in London whereas this PCN relates to outside Greater London.

IMO, an argument around 'Setting Charges' and Annex B to the SoS's Stat Guidance can also be made now that the higher and lower level contraventions and use of suffixes are set in this guidance and not by the previous SI which has been repealed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions#setting-charges

The guidance is issued to 'local authorities' (which also have 'civil parking enforcement powers') not parking partnerships. IMO, the local authority in whose area the contravention occurred has to have had regard to the guidance and similarly is the only body which may determine the exercise of discretion.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 30, 2023, 04:50:51 pm
@Merc220 the council photos confirm that the contravention itself is not open to dispute.
Okay, I will go ahead an challenge the PCN
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on August 30, 2023, 04:43:55 pm
@Merc220 the council photos confirm that the contravention itself is not open to dispute.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 30, 2023, 04:33:46 pm
The email and phone number to contact them is at https://www.parkingpartnership.org/south/

Also, can you please mark on the map where this sign is located?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KQbBpsnVYrtUYa4c6

I have got the pictures from the council


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on August 30, 2023, 02:53:10 pm
The traffic order is The Essex County Council (Chelmsford City) (Prohibition of Waiting, Loading and Stopping) and (On-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement Area) Consolidation Order 2019  (https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Chelmsford/Consolidation-Order_-Chelmsford-2019.pdf) as varied by The Essex County Council (Chelmsford City) (Prohibition of Waiting, Loading and Stopping) and (On-Street Parking Places) (Civil Enforcement Area) (Amendment  No.15) Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1NeRMTnhDX8uYtGdd3EhQ6QC5JlExXOrT).

The location of the signage makes the contravention clear-cut, so at least that's out of the way. The fact that you might not have appreciated the meaning of the signs is obviously irrelevant, and they were quite close to your car so there's no obvious defence to the contravention.

The best argument I can see is around the wording of the PCN, which I would suggest is duplicitous, I would therefore suggest a representation as follows:

Dear Essex County Council,

I challenge liability for PCN XP16750516 on the basis of a procedural impropriety, namely that the PCN fails to adequately particularise the alleged wrongdoing. The wording of the penalty charge lists no less than 6 possible contraventions, and it is impossible to tell from the PCN what it is that I am alleged to have done.

In support of this, I refer you to the following decisions:

Andrew David Rush v London Borough of Southwark (2120562288, 05 January 2013): (link)
Natalie van Dijk v London Borough of Islington (2150275729, 23 September 2015): (link)
Marian Bostan v City of London (2170116728, 13 April 2017): (link)

In light of the above, the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will send you the links to be added to the representation by private message, do not click on the links.

The reason being that if by the time you get the rejection the click count is still zero, we can prove that they have failed to consider the representations.
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 30, 2023, 11:37:07 am
I have marked the location of sign in blue

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on August 29, 2023, 07:03:50 pm
The email and phone number to contact them is at https://www.parkingpartnership.org/south/

Also, can you please mark on the map where this sign is located?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KQbBpsnVYrtUYa4c6
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 29, 2023, 06:36:58 pm
@Merc220 you have until 4 September to preserve the discount, but rather that going in blind it's best to know what evidence the council has. The Essex parking partnerships don't put the photos online, so you will need to contact them and ask them to email you the photos. In the meantime I will get hold of the traffic order.

Also if you could plot on a map where your car was and where the private parking sign was, that would be very helpful.

Map tiles:

https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/msched/TL700%20112_rv1_1.pdf
https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/msched/TL705%20112_rv1_1.pdf
Thank you, I will try to get the pictures.
I am attaching the marked screenshot
Also, how do I ask for pictures. There is no email address

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: cp8759 on August 29, 2023, 06:02:49 pm
@Merc220 you have until 4 September to preserve the discount, but rather that going in blind it's best to know what evidence the council has. The Essex parking partnerships don't put the photos online, so you will need to contact them and ask them to email you the photos. In the meantime I will get hold of the traffic order.

Also if you could plot on a map where your car was and where the private parking sign was, that would be very helpful.

Map tiles:

https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/msched/TL700%20112_rv1_1.pdf
https://store.traffweb.app/essex/documents/parkmap/msched/TL705%20112_rv1_1.pdf
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 29, 2023, 05:50:14 pm
There are private parking signs in your photos which suggest the land is private and the council cannot enforce but lets see the council photos of where you parked

These are the photos of where I parked. The only bays there are have this private land notice. So, although the sign says "except in bay" there are no bays
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RDVQDT34bXGWMF7a7
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Pastmybest on August 29, 2023, 03:58:38 pm
There are private parking signs in your photos which suggest the land is private and the council cannot enforce but lets see the council photos of where you parked
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 29, 2023, 12:07:49 pm
The entry signs are very clear, so it's puzzling you missed them.  I'll bet there are no "marked bays" though. An appeal based on signage could be argued on the basis of there being no repeater signs once the entry signs are passed.
Are there no repeater signs ?

There are no repeater signs
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 29, 2023, 11:59:37 am
Here are the pictures of the PCN


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Incandescent on August 29, 2023, 11:38:24 am
The entry signs are very clear, so it's puzzling you missed them.  I'll bet there are no "marked bays" though. An appeal based on signage could be argued on the basis of there being no repeater signs once the entry signs are passed.
Are there no repeater signs ?

Other equally valid arguments can be developed on the basis of (1) fatal errors in the PCN (2) the TRO establishing the zone being incorrectly drawn up, and (3) failure to consider representations assuming you submit them, rather than paying up straight away.

Your photos of the PCN are no good, we need to see all of the two pages, nice and flat so we can see everything. Appeals have been won many, many, times on fatal errors in PCNs
Title: Ticket issued in PPA
Post by: Merc220 on August 29, 2023, 11:23:50 am
Hi all,
I have been issued a ticket by "South Essex parking partnership". Near Broomfield hospital. The street has no yellow or white lines, no bays or signs where I parked. But I noticed that at the entrance of the street, there is a sign which says "Permit holders only beyond this point except marked bays". I didn't see that sign before I got the ticket. Do I have a defence.
The link below has the pictures of location and the PCN.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RDVQDT34bXGWMF7a7

This is the image from GSV. But this isn't updated. The new sign is installed where the old one is covered in the black plastic sheet
https://maps.app.goo.gl/jsGU59Yr83dp8Zkm9

This is the picture of the PCN
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rNmy35UMEMrNief3A

I have taken pictures of the area.
Below is the link.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9r2VYz64iTBYDzHn7
The street has two entrances and both have the sign which says Permit holders only except in bays. But there are no bays on the street or any yellow or white line. The only bays are In front of the flats, which have a separate sign of private land. I have attached the picture of the sign too.
Below is the link to a screenshot from Google maps, where I have marked where the entrance is and where are the bays. I have also attached a picture of the signs when we exit the street.

Here is the link to map's screenshot

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HM96zkBhXDV7ybcM6

Any help would be appreciated. I have only few days left to appeal