Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: highspiritz on January 01, 2025, 10:50:04 pm

Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: Hippocrates on May 11, 2025, 11:53:21 am
That's brief! 8)
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on May 11, 2025, 11:44:46 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/12w8VVjuo3CUwBheJhBr6yK1W2pV-KXnP/view).
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on February 05, 2025, 10:35:39 pm
Yes he did, we're off to the tribunal.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: John U.K. on February 05, 2025, 04:46:58 pm
Did you reply to @cp8759 s Private Message (reply #27) ?
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on February 05, 2025, 01:11:39 pm
I would rather pay you then pay the council £55.

But if I have to pay the council £110 I may as well pay them £55 now.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on February 05, 2025, 12:51:57 pm
@cp8759

Sorry I meant you are going to the tribunal on my behalf. I meant ‘we’ as in you and me.

My question to you was:

Is it on the basis of no signage? We sure to win?
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on February 04, 2025, 10:25:54 pm
Best of luck, let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on February 04, 2025, 12:19:05 pm
@cp8759

Just to confirm we are going to the tribunal on the basis of no visible signage as a defence.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on January 29, 2025, 09:40:02 pm
The next step is the tribunal, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 29, 2025, 12:21:02 pm
@cp8759
Yes just as you mentioned it was here on Monday but dated 23/01/2025.
14 days to pay from 23/01/2025. £55
Letter attached below from Bromley.



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on January 28, 2025, 11:38:55 pm
There is no court, the next step would be an appeal to London Tribunals but first we need to know if a Notice of Rejection exists.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 28, 2025, 11:03:14 pm
@cp8759

Will do that. What do we do next? Take them to court? And face them?
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on January 25, 2025, 03:23:38 pm
Quote from: highspiritz on January 25, 2025, 12:19:14 pm
I have not received a reply as of yet from Bromley. Is this normal? Should I make contact with them on the phone? Or ignore any contact until they reply?
The outstanding penalty is showing as £55, this suggests a Notice of Rejection has been issued. If it doesn't come in Monday's post contact the council and ask them to email you a copy.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 25, 2025, 12:23:19 pm
Quote from: SITR on January 16, 2025, 02:30:40 pm
Chaps, just something to be aware of - the PCN refers to Bus Stop T, whilst all the streetview links that have been added to this thread are of Bus Stop U.

Stop T is over the road outside Boots.

Thanks for the update. I am of the understanding that this should still not change the challenge. I will however go and check bus stop T and update here. If my memory is correct the bus stop T also is long and have no signs until the very end where the actual bus stop shelter is located.

Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 25, 2025, 12:19:14 pm
@cp8759 @CITR

I have not received a reply as of yet from Bromley. Is this normal? Should I make contact with them on the phone? Or ignore any contact until they reply?

Bus Stop T it is.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: SITR on January 16, 2025, 02:30:40 pm
Chaps, just something to be aware of - the PCN refers to Bus Stop T, whilst all the streetview links that have been added to this thread are of Bus Stop U.

Stop T is over the road outside Boots.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 04, 2025, 05:35:21 pm
@cp8759

I just sent them another appeal online as it allowed me to do so.

Thanks once again.

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Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: stamfordman on January 04, 2025, 03:36:51 pm
Quote from: highspiritz on January 04, 2025, 03:16:15 pm
I have in the meanwhile replied to Bromley council stating the TFL handbook for drivers and that as a private hire we are allowed to pick and drop customers as long as we do not continue on the bus lane after pick up or drop off.

You are confusing bus lanes with bus stops. You are not allowed to stop on a bus stop clearway as the handbook states:

You must:

Not stop at 'bus stop clearways' marked with a wide yellow line by the kerb. On red
routes, you cannot stop at bus stops marked with a wide red line by the kerb. You
should try not to stop at other red route bus stops to avoid delaying or obstructing
buses

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/phv-driver-handbook-v1.pdf
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on January 04, 2025, 03:22:54 pm
@highspiritz send another representation now based on my draft if the Bromley website allows you to do so.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 04, 2025, 03:21:24 pm
@Incandescent

Thank you very much.

The (Mathew Mathai vs.....) case is exactly the same situation as mine here.

When I reply to the council do I mention this case for reference or wait for the next stage and use this at the court?

Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 04, 2025, 03:16:15 pm
@cp8759

Thank you and the rest of the gang here. This seems to me the way forward. I have in the meanwhile replied to Bromley council stating the TFL handbook for drivers and that as a private hire we are allowed to pick and drop customers as long as we do not continue on the bus lane after pick up or drop off. I have also included evidence of my private hire vehicle license and my TFL licence to drive a private hire vehicle. I also spoke to a representative at the council and they advised me to sent in the evidence. They said once they see the evidence they will reply appropriately.


I personally do not have any faith in them and expect them to simply decline the appeal without even looking at the evidence.

Now should I sent in another email with the wordings regarding the sign being not visible at the front of the bus lane? or should I wait for a rejection and then sent in this email?

Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on January 03, 2025, 06:59:21 pm
@highspiritz I'm not sure much of the above discussion is useful, here's a draft representation for you:

Dear London Borough of Bromley,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. This is because the signage is inadequate, I refer you in particular to paragraph 13.2.9 of Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual which states that "Where the bus stop marking has been extended to accommodate two or more buses, it might be preferable to mount the sign close to the beginning of the bay. In these circumstances an additional sign, mounted parallel to the kerb, might be required near the centre of the bay."

On this occasion there is only one sign at the far end of the bus stop and the driver could not possibly have seen it, it follows that the signage is inadequate and for that reason there was no contravention.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online via https://parking.bromley.gov.uk/live-3sc-user/ and take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: H C Andersen on January 03, 2025, 06:34:45 pm
I understand, but although it might come as a surprise to TfL they don't define the prohibition. And the issue of incorrect grounds used by councils is another issue i.e. it is a 'clearway' not a 'restricted bus stop....' whatever the hell this might be.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: stamfordman on January 03, 2025, 01:43:53 pm
You are not misreading this I think but it seems clear that the regs only allow licensed black cabs to pickup/drop off on yellow (not red) bus stop clearways and not PHVs as with the OP. The Westminster policy as I said allows for black cabs but the confusion arises because it's not stated in the London Councils guidance I think. But it is in TFL's (see below).

As for the OP, there are two PCNs - Bexley and Bromley - so a new thread should be started for Bexley should they wish to pursue this one.

My feeling is that for a professional driver the bus stop layout may not be as strong a case as the cited ones but should standalone as being compliant or not.

----------

Private hire vehicles cannot stop at 'bus stop clearways' marked with a wide yellow line by the kerb. On red routes both taxis and private hire vehicles cannot stop at bus stops marked with a wide red line by the kerb. At other red route bus stops, taxi and private hire drivers should avoid stopping to avoid disruption to the bus network.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/parking-information
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: H C Andersen on January 03, 2025, 12:10:31 pm
I'll be guided as to whether this aspect should be continued in the Flame Pit.

London Councils doesn't list a taxi exemption for code 47....

The road marking given and described at item 9 is a 'Clearway'.

(a)“clearway” means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight lines provided for at item 9; (a rather circular reference because 'item 9' simply refers to this paragraph!).

However the markings comprise a broad continuous line adjacent to the kerb for the length of the clearway which forms one side of a 4-sided rectangle whose other sides are formed by the 'continuous and broken' lines. When placed on a road which is not a Red Route the markings are yellow, but on a Red Route they're red.

If these markings are placed then the prohibition is given in the Regs, not by London Councils' codes or grounds.

As far as I can see, the nearest relevant grounds are 46 and 47, neither of which accords with the TSRGD description or exemptions.

Am I misreading this?





Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: Incandescent on January 03, 2025, 10:37:58 am
Quote from: cp8759 on January 02, 2025, 11:47:11 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on January 02, 2025, 01:00:08 am
This bus stop is exceptionally long at 63.25 metres, and there is only one sign right at the end by the bus stop sign and shelter.
That's the basis for a winning appeal, see these two recent cases:

Matthew Mathai v London Borough of Redbridge (2240426053, 4 November 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hjKDbmgF6LbE2tJS2vL2B21AzpCzm-gC/view)
Rafiuddin Syed v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2240376545, 23 December 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bLvPW0TH_QAvabqJdN2FQ3glB_Ow7-kH/view)

@highspiritz of course no appeal is guaranteed to succeed, but these seem like reasonably solid grounds to me. Of course the council will never accept anything you say, so you'll have to make a representation, wait for the rejection and then appeal to the tribunal (we can help with that).
And this Orpington bus stop is 206 feet !

Here is an obvious pole to put a sign on at the start of the bus lane : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ySTmM9pv5hdLKwB87
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: cp8759 on January 02, 2025, 11:47:11 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on January 02, 2025, 01:00:08 am
This bus stop is exceptionally long at 63.25 metres, and there is only one sign right at the end by the bus stop sign and shelter.
That's the basis for a winning appeal, see these two recent cases:

Matthew Mathai v London Borough of Redbridge (2240426053, 4 November 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hjKDbmgF6LbE2tJS2vL2B21AzpCzm-gC/view)
Rafiuddin Syed v London Borough of Waltham Forest (2240376545, 23 December 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bLvPW0TH_QAvabqJdN2FQ3glB_Ow7-kH/view)

@highspiritz of course no appeal is guaranteed to succeed, but these seem like reasonably solid grounds to me. Of course the council will never accept anything you say, so you'll have to make a representation, wait for the rejection and then appeal to the tribunal (we can help with that).
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: H C Andersen on January 02, 2025, 03:35:30 pm
Unless someone can find a flaw, the regs seem clear even if a little convoluted.

Again from the Regs:

“bus”
 unless the context requires otherwise—
a motor vehicle constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver); or
a local bus

"local bus”
 a public service vehicle used for the provision of a local service not being an excursion or tour

“local service”
 has the meaning given in section 2 of the Transport Act 1985

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/67/part/I/crossheading/meaning-of-local-service

Straight forward??

In any event, if a PHV is not a PSV therefore not a "local bus' the exemption doesn't apply under these grounds and if the OP doesn't meet the definition of 'taxi' in the Regs then they are not covered by the grounds which include 'taxis'.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: stamfordman on January 02, 2025, 02:48:47 pm
London Councils doesn't list a taxi exemption for code 47 and neither do most councils but taxis aren't mentioned in any exemption apart from on a taxi rank. There is a general exemption that could be almost anything:
A vehicle on the service of the local authority providing that it is being used in the exercise of a statutory power or duty of that, and it is necessary for the vehicle to wait in that location.

The regs listed by Mr Anderson suggest an exemption should apply provided the taxi meets the relevant acts.

Westminster says in observations (not exemptions) for bus stop clearway:

Give 2 mins observation to licensed Hackney Carriages to ascertain whether picking up/setting down and/or loading/unloading passenger luggage is occurring. If so, give as long as necessary.

suggesting London councils should allow such licensed taxis and it may be wrongly excluded from exemptions but only for those that meet the acts.

Generally of course the exemption Setting down and/or picking up of passengers, or to load or unload any personal luggage does not apply.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: roythebus on January 02, 2025, 02:25:40 pm
A private hire vehicle is NOT a taxi regardless of where it is licenced. therefore is cannot stop on a restricted bus stop to set down or pick up passengers.

A taxi CAN be a bus providing it is on a registered local bus service and carries the word BUS and the destination in the front. Certain dial-a-ride/demand-responsive services use black taxis as well as saloon car taxis on such services. So in this case unless there's a flaw in the upright signage, I rckon a fair cop sorry to say.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: H C Andersen on January 02, 2025, 01:56:21 pm
According to the Regs:

As I understand it:

Clearways (diagram 1025.1)
1.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (3) and paragraph 4, the road marking provided for at item 9 of the Part 4 sign table conveys the prohibition that a person driving a vehicle must not cause it to stop within the clearway—

(a)if the relevant upright sign placed in conjunction with the marking does not show a time period, at any time; or

(b)if the relevant upright sign shows a time period, during that period.

(2) For the purposes of this paragraph—

(a)“clearway” means an area of carriageway bounded by the continuous and broken straight lines provided for at item 9;

(b)“relevant upright sign” means an upright sign which includes a stopping prohibited symbol and indicates that stopping by vehicles other than buses or local buses is prohibited, or prohibited during the period indicated;

(c)in respect of paragraph 1 only, a taxi which is stationary only for so long as may be reasonably necessary for a passenger to board or alight and to load or unload any luggage of the passenger (but this exemption does not apply in relation to a marking on a red route where paragraph 12 of Part 5 applies);

4.
...
(2) The prohibition in paragraphs 1(1) and 3 does not apply in respect of—

...
(c)in respect of paragraph 1 only, a taxi which is stationary only for so long as may be reasonably necessary for a passenger to board or alight and to load or unload any luggage of the passenger (but this exemption does not apply in relation to a marking on a red route where paragraph 12 of Part 5 applies);

And:
The Schedule 7 General Directions

1.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the signs provided for in this Schedule must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic.

(2) Sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to the road markings provided for at the following items in the sign table in Part 4—

(a)6, but only where the marking—

(i)does not include a word or phrase; and

(ii)is not in a controlled parking zone

(b)9;

So, IMO starting from the bottom:
The prohibition is created solely by the markings themselves and does not need a traffic order, therefore it is the meaning prescribed by the Regs which applies(I have not included any Red Route-specific info).

Item 9 is a Clearway:
Diagram 1025.1

Clearway at which, as described in paragraph 1 of Part 6, vehicles must not stop (exceptions apply for buses and taxis)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made


It appears that 'taxis' are excluded from the prohibition.

“taxi”
 
(a)
in England and Wales, a vehicle licensed under—

(i)
section 37 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847(43); or

(ii)
section 6 of the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act 1869(44);

or under any similar enactment;
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 02, 2025, 01:48:10 pm
@stamfordman

Stopping and waiting
Private hire drivers can stop to pick up or drop off passengers in many areas where there
are rules in place to limit waiting or stopping. You need to remember that:
• PHV drivers should not stop in any place where they might stop other vehicles
moving or be a danger to other road users.
• PHV drivers must not stop on zig-zag lines (for example, by pedestrian crossings,
outside schools)
You should check what signage is displayed about stopping or waiting and make sure you
understand and follow the instructions:
• You can pick up or drop off passengers:
- On single and double red lines
27
- On single and double yellow lines
- In places where loading is not allowed (shown by markings on the kerb)
- In most parking bays
- In most bus lanes, although you should avoid this if possible as it might delay
or obstruct buses
But remember you cannot wait for passengers in these areas.
• You can stop in the above locations only long enough for the passengers to get in
or out of your vehicle. This includes the time to help passengers who need
assistance, for example wheelchair users, including the time needed to make sure
the wheelchair is in the right position and safely secured
• You should not stop on taxi ranks, even when picking up or dropping off passengers
• If there are waiting or parking restrictions, you cannot stop for longer than is needed
for the passenger to get in or out of the vehicle. (There is no general permission
that allows you to leave your vehicle to help a passenger to or from a building.
However, some councils understand and accept that this is an important part of
your job. If your passenger needs help, you should spend only a short time away
from your vehicle, if possible, and make a note of the passenger’s details/booking,
just in case you get a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). It will be down to the council
who issued the PCN to decide whether to accept this evidence and cancel the PCN

Extracts from TFL Handbook for Private hire vehicles and drivers:
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/phv-driver-handbook-v1.pdf
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 02, 2025, 01:31:34 pm
@Incandescent

My vehicle is a TFL authorised Private hire vehicle. I have a PCO badge to drive as a pre booked taxi.
Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: stamfordman on January 02, 2025, 11:43:48 am
There is no exemption for any type of taxi to stop on a no-stopping bus stop clearway as far as I know, and this restriction is used on almost all London borough bus stops.

However, TFL red route bus stops only have the usual red route stopping restrictions and I believe you can stop and pick up at their bus stops.

Title: Re: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: Incandescent on January 02, 2025, 01:00:08 am
Here is the bus stop, and the sign, which bars all except buses. So is your vehicle a bus ?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/84iewS5y745o3RY79
This bus stop is exceptionally long at 63.25 metres, and there is only one sign right at the end by the bus stop sign and shelter. However your narrative says you expect with your vehicle to be able to stop and board/alight passengers, so either Bromley are wrong or you are.  I'm not up-to-speed on the detail of what is allowed at restricted bus stops, so hopefully somebody who knows will be on soon to advise you.
Title: 47J Stopped on a Restricted bus stop or stand
Post by: highspiritz on January 01, 2025, 10:50:04 pm
Date of Notice 19/12/2024
PCN: BY97177686
Vehicle: DK18 FFV
WWW.BROMLEY.GOV.UK/PARKING

I am a PCO driver authorised by TFL and drive a authorised PHV. I stopped at the bus stop to pick up a couple of customers and exited the bus stop without continuing on the bus stop.
Although I have done this many times I have never received a PCN until now. And I have now received 2 in the same month one from Bexley Council and this one from Bromley council.

The penalty is £55 if paid early.

Help me understand whether I have a chance to beat these PCN's.
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