Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Miffed on December 30, 2024, 08:14:07 pm
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As I posted earlier:
OP, probably as many appeals to the adjudicator are won on procedural grounds arising from a Notice of Rejection of formal representations as are won on more standard issues e.g. contravention did not occur, inadequate signage etc.
And yours is a case in point.
Dreadful performance by council officers who can't submit proper evidence, and good support from cp.
But don't rely on the former, sometimes they get it right
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gqIXXyQhPeuUOfkqDzKbmKKv1sqsAzcD/view).
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The only evidence i'd have would be a witness statement from my sister, and as I haven't mentioned it during this process except on here, would that not be acceptable to mention it at this late stage now?
It's not that late, you're still at the representations stage. A witness statement must provide the full name and address of the witness, if you're happy putting something together then great, if not please PM me and I'll do my best to assist.
The main point of getting a statement (or any document for that matter) is illustrated by the case of Nashrin Master v London Borough of Hackney (2240537076, 19 February 2025) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hu-p41Pvxehyuky0GpFJ7bt6_YdR-tuy/view).
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Hello,
The only evidence i'd have would be a witness statement from my sister, and as I haven't mentioned it during this process except on here, would that not be acceptable to mention it at this late stage now?
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The smoothie was made by my sister, and the vomiting that night was unexplained, it was only a few days later that I learnt about adverse reactions to spirulina.
Again, what evidence do you have to support this? As a last resort it may have to come down to a witness statement from your sister, but the reason I mention this is illustrated here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/ealing-cumberland-road-w7-code-53j-failing-to-comply-with-a-restriction-on-vehic/msg56444/#msg56444), the most recent outcome based on this was Nashrin Master v London Borough of Hackney (2240537076, 19 February 2025) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hu-p41Pvxehyuky0GpFJ7bt6_YdR-tuy/view). This gives you another angle of attack entirely separate from the signage issues, and having two grounds of appeal is much better than just having one.
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No requirement for 2 signs:
See 13.10.3 (which gives a reflection of the law but is not law in itself)
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
The law is:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18/made
See s18.1(a).
'..authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;'
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@HCAnderson, I'm not used to having to fight these things, never having got one before. Is it not a matter of procedure that if they are required to put up a pair of signs, that both of those must be visible? If not, why 2 then? When a single would suffice ...
I'm not at all sure what other reasons to fight the PCN I would have, but have carried on in this process, after being encouraged to do so on here.
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@cp8759 re: the smoothie, I did mention it, in reply to you, on December 31st. The smoothie was made by my sister, and the vomiting that night was unexplained, it was only a few days later that I learnt about adverse reactions to spirulina.
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OP, I urge you to read your draft as if you were a critical reader looking for holes like, say, a council!
Your photo simply demonstrates how clearly the restriction is signed, not how badly. So what if two signs aren't clear when the one placed adjacent to your traffic lane is as clear as a bell?
Now, if you approached from the road on the left which we can see in the photo then IMO the position of both signs comes into play. But if you did then your photo is hardly germane because you were never at this point.
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The night before the PCN was issued, I did park there as I had been suffering a bout of vomiting after drinking a smoothie with spirulina powder in it. Apparently, some people are violently allergic to spirulina, and I must be one of them, as I had a nasty bout of vomiting for several hours before returning home. I thought I was recovered, but, as I drove home, I could feel the nausea rising again...
Well this is all new information, how come you didn't mention it before?
Do you have any supporting evidence? For instance, what's the name of the smoothie? Are there any witnesses that can confirm the symptoms? Did you call 111 or seek advice from a pharmacy?
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Apologies, my previous picture of the obscured sign is now visible, I often have trouble with this site. For instance, it will freeze up and become unable to scroll through, I'm using my phone perhaps it doesn't like that. Anyway, this is what I've written. I look forward to your thoughts, and am grateful once again:
"
To whom it may concern,
I write in reference of the PCN HR76270141, that was issued on 18/12/2024, and the subsequent NTO just received yesterday, on 20/02/25.
I wish to challenge this PCN, on the basis that the restricted area is poorly sign posted, with one of the two signs at either side of the road where the PPA ZONE begins being obscured by a type of conifer tree, and this sign is only visible when just about to pass where it is located. The road narrows dramatically at this point, so much so, that cars are directed to park on the pavement, and one must pay extra attention to navigate this part of the road. A sign that is obscured until the last moment, is easily missed, there being only one in view on the left hand side could easily be taken to refer to the road that turns left at that point.
I live on the road adjacent, at ** Stanmore Hill, and would have thought residents who live less than 100 m away from this new parking arrangement would have been notified of this drastic change to the neighbourhood. I have lived here since May 2021, but have only occasionally driven up Green Lane, and usually only do so when there are roadworks in my road. I think I've parked in Green Lane on no more than 4 occasions in that time.
The night before the PCN was issued, I did park there as I had been suffering a bout of vomiting after drinking a smoothie with spirulina powder in it. Apparently, some people are violently allergic to spirulina, and I must be one of them, as I had a nasty bout of vomiting for several hours before returning home. I thought I was recovered, but, as I drove home, I could feel the nausea rising again, and so when I did see many free spaces to park, in Green Lane, some 50m before the place I normally park in Spring Lake, I took the earliest opportunity to be out of the car.
The normal arrangement for residents bays in this area, including down the hill much closer to Stanmore Broadway where all the shops are, is that the bays are only patrolled between 3 and 4 pm, Monday to Friday. Is this portion of Green Lane zoned any differently than the rest of the roads in the area? Again, why is this change not being broadcast?
I offer that it would be reasonable to make an assumption that all resident's bays in the area, operate under the same conditions, unless there has been notification to those that live nearby, to the contrary. I have never received any such notification of a change.
This being a new type of arrangement, not commonly seen, I would have thought it only just to ensure that all are aware there is a new type of parking enforcement, especially as it's one that is not concurrent with all those that surround it."
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Thank you cp8759, I hadn't considered that, and ask if you could also do the same on the original rejection letter I posted on January 8th?
For some reason the pic I posted of the obscured sign yesterday, is not showing here, so will post it now again.
Will draft my representation, and post it later .
Many thanks again
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I've redacted your postal address from the NTO above, as you don't really want that to be published on the internet.
In the first instance please draft a representation and put on here for review, and we'll tidy it up for you.
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Pic of the view of the signs further down the hill
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hello again,
At long last, I've received the NTO today, and will attach it here.
Coincidentally, I did drive up that road on my way home today, for the first time probably since the contravention, and I was surprised to see further down the hill, about 30 feet from the signs, the right hand sign is completely blocked from view by an evergreen tree. I did not see this when I sent the pics of the signs as I'd just walked down the hill to the signs. Does the fact that only one sign is visible in warning to approaching cars, until you are nearly upon the sign, warrant the notice being invalid? I'll post a pic of this view also.
(https://i.imgur.com/UF9z8P7.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/mjaI3DU.png)
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Very good, I'll follow your advice, and wait for the NTO. In my 40 years of driving I've never once had a parking ticket, so have not had to engage in this process. I can see I'm in good hands, and will follow the guidance helpfully offered here.
Thank you again
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@Miffed the council always rejects everything, that's not really the point. Once you appeal to the tribunal it's no longer up to them, and the odds are in your favour: probably a third of appeals are not resisted by authorities, a third are won and a third are lost, so you have a 2 in 3 chance of a positive outcome even if you didn't have any assistance from anyone.
On top of that, motorists who are represented by one of us regularly win in 90%+ of cases. If the Notice of Rejection turns out to be procedurally defective, you could have a winning appeal no matter what the signage situation is.
So frankly it would be a bit silly to give in and pay now.
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OP, probably as many appeals to the adjudicator are won on procedural grounds arising from a Notice of Rejection of formal representations as are won on more standard issues e.g. contravention did not occur, inadequate signage etc.
But you don't have a NOR and won't get one unless you make formal reps against a NTO and cp suggests this could be financially risk-free as regards your current situation i.e. discount being re-offered.
Which would seem to lead to ...make formal reps within 14 days beginning on date of service of a NTO.
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Hello again,
Given that the previous appeal posted here did fail, and the challenge I've made against the pcn was rejected for a similar reason is it worth going further, if they're already minded to reject?
Is there any faulty element of either the traffic order or the pcn? And if not, should I just give in?
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As long as you challenge the NTO within 14 days of the date of issue the discount is normally reoffered anyway upon rejection, so there's limited risk in carrying on.
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From what I can see, you were parked within a parking place defined by item 3 in Table 1. The order seems to cover each of the parking place areas although the residents of 101 to 107 might be surprised to know that GL permit holders could park by their dropped footways.
Technically the contravention alleged in your case is incorrect. The order allows a range of permit holders to park, not just GL residents permit holders. But on its own I doubt this would persuade an adjudicator, see what others post.
Their response to your reps is numerically illiterate as it states that they could serve a NTO when the discount is still available..
'[pay £55]within 14 days of' 3 Jan is 17th....
whereas '[pay £110] within 28 days of date of PCN' is 15th at which time they could serve a NTO demanding £110 from the owner despite £55 being the penalty until 17th.
But again this is unlikely to win on its on.
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Hello again,
Does that order look to be faulty in any way? I'm completely surprised to see it's been in effect since 2022,and I'm certain I will have parked there since then, again, unaware of this change.
I've just received the notice rejecting my appeal, which was expected.
(https://i.imgur.com/fV7VMS3.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/00FYfOG.jpeg)
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For later:
The Harrow (Parking Places) Traffic Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JA7T805jfccPCmSK4dp53N7vSvcnk-LP/view)
The Harrow (Parking Places) (Amendment No. 16) Traffic Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GMho5gCgSxN-qCiT7ijsIUAfMfCqkdnl/view)
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Here's an example of a PPA order:
https://www.harrow.gov.uk/downloads/file/32553/22_25_Accessibility_documents_approved___FINAL.pdf
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Once again, I'm grateful for all the input and the different people weighing in.
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So, unless there's an error in the parking order, it looks like pursuing an appeal is a waste of time.
There might also be an issue in Harrow's enforcement process, most appeals are won on technical grounds of this sort.
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So the success of any appeal does not look likely. My position is similar to the appellant, in that I rarely use the road, and have possibly parked there only 3 times in 4 years. Without knowing about the change (no other changes have been enacted in the neighbourhood) it's not difficult to make the presumption that all was as before.
So, unless there's an error in the parking order, it looks like pursuing an appeal is a waste of time.
I still find it cynical that they're allowed to say it's legal without any notifications near to where the parking is to take place.
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Only one case I can see. Apparently the forum software thinks the **** is. rude word - it's actually ********.
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2240008938
Green Lane
Decision Date 19 Feb 2024
I was able to conduct the hearing of this case by telephone on 19 February.
The Council did not participate in the call I made to the appellant. The appellant car had been ticketed on the first day of several when re-painting nearby tenanted premises where the landlord had used his frequently (between tenancies for example). In support of his case I heard from another tradesman Mr Grainger as a witness. He had been on the same site and had attracted a similar ticket which had been challenged but not yet reached tribunal stage.
Since the appellant had last been to where recorded the Council had introduced new parking restrictions enabling permit holders to park within the zone, but restricting parking by others.
It had not painted bays in connection with these new restrictions. It relied on a pair of signs erected at the only point where cars could be driven in to the permit zone.
The officer issuing the PCN was thus not at fault in his decision to ticket.
The appellant argued that the pair of signs indicating the permit requirement beyond them was unfair and very easily missed.
I have accepted the appellant failed to see the new signs but this resulted from the confidence he had about free parking, confidence developed from long but intermittent use. Crucially I did not accept his argument about inadequate signage. This signage was in my finding legally sufficient to put drivers on notice of the permit requirement. This sort of signage arrangement is now lawful without painted bays or the еrection of additional signs having passed zone boundary. Such arrangements are no longer scarce but increasingly found.
I have decided the contravention occurred and I must thus record this appeal as refused.
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I'm sure the council will reject which means you will have to make a formal representation once you get the notice to owner, please don't submit formal representations without putting a draft on here first.
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May have helped if you'd said you are a local resident. I'll check the tribunal for any cases here.
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Thanks again for your help here.
No, I think it was from a smoothie my sister had made me at hers a few hours earlier. She put spirulina powder in it, and it caused me to have projectile vomiting, which I didn't know was a thing, but apparently people can be violently allergic to it.
I challenged the pcn through Harrow Councils online portal and sorry, I didn't take a screenshot of what I wrote. At that time I was unaware of any signage at all, and I wrote that the notice is invalid without any signs. It was only after my neighbour mentioned the signs much further down, that I knew of them. I mentioned having walked for at least 80m and could see not a single sign on either side of the road. I also mentioned the signpost without a sign.
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No, I don't have a dash cam. Not sure if it's a mitigating circumstance but that night, I was ill with suspected food poisoning. Hence just parking there and not a little further on, where I normally park. I was glad to be getting out of the car at the first opportunity.
Do you have any evidence of that? A call to 111, a complaint to the restaurant or takeaway, anything like that?
Parking order, is that the legislation from the council?
Yes, I've already requested it so you don't need to worry about that.
I have challenged the pcn, as soon as I saw it
Please show us a copy of what you sent.
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OP, a Permit Parking Area is defined as follows:
"permit parking area”
an area—
(a)
into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)
where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)
And this represents the law and would be applied by an adjudicator.
It's possible that the traffic order has not been drafted correctly, but as posted you wouldn't find out until later in the process. These orders need careful crafting because every unmarked(with prescribed traffic signs) length of street is presumed to be a parking place reserved for permit holders GL and must therefore be defined as such in the order. Here there are lengths with no markings, lengths with markings which are not prescribed(the footway parking markings and the white markings by vehicle crossovers) and lengths with prescribed markings(the DYL and School Entrance).
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Hi,
No, I don't have a dash cam. Not sure if it's a mitigating circumstance but that night, I was ill with suspected food poisoning. Hence just parking there and not a little further on, where I normally park. I was glad to be getting out of the car at the first opportunity.
Parking order, is that the legislation from the council? As I say parking there was not a problem before, not that I've done it very much, and certainly not for a while. The GSV showing the new signs is 8 months old, so it's been that long this new arrangement has been in place.
All other residents bays in the neighbourhood even those 500m down the hill and close to The Broadway where all the shops are, are only in operation from 3-4pm Mon to Fri. This is a completely incongruent arrangement.
I have challenged the pcn, as soon as I saw it
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@Miffed well the obvious next step is for me to get hold of the traffic order, but obviously we have to put a challenge in first as getting the TMO will take some time.
In the meantime do you have any mitigating circumstances, especially anything unrelated to the contravention itself? And do you have a dashcam by any chance?
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Hello all, thanks for the input.
I've just taken pics of the signs, and I've paced them out from where I parked, a total of 190 elongated steps away.
Is this catch all sign enough notification, for so many car spaces when as per my earlier message, I'm used to each bay having it's own sign, so as to be clear. I pride myself on never having had a parking ticket, and this just seems manifestly unfair. I note there is a side road halfway up to the left signposted "Park Cottages 1-4" and anyone coming out of that road would not see any sign at all.
Indeed there isn't, but to get a vehicle into and out of Park Cottages, you have to pass the signs, because the other way in has been blocked off: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/J3nWRoi33wXfVPRb8
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The view onto Green Lane from Park Cottages 1-4. There is a signpost with no sign. Also, aren't they supposed to include in the pcn a photograph of the signage notifying anyone parking there of the restriction?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hello all, thanks for the input.
I've just taken pics of the signs, and I've paced them out from where I parked, a total of 190 elongated steps away.
Is this catch all sign enough notification, for so many car spaces when as per my earlier message, I'm used to each bay having it's own sign, so as to be clear. I pride myself on never having had a parking ticket, and this just seems manifestly unfair. I note there is a side road halfway up to the left signposted "Park Cottages 1-4" and anyone coming out of that road would not see any sign at all.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@Miffed can you get us some updated photos?
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@Miffed where are these two inconspicuous signs?
We can normally beat an inadequately signed PPA, and looking on GSV I can't see any zone entry signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4fAAqaBckkDwuVph8
The zone is only a short section of Green Lane just past Culverlands Close. Here are the signs: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/segztacJi9JTMkTx8
One cannot drive in from the other end, as it's now blocked off, so no signs needed. There is, however, an "End of Zone" sign for those driving out of Green Lane: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qUmJAUCTLYXMBaqz5
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Signs are here - a bit sneaky putting them in at that point in the road. Turning left out of the side road may be a reason not to see them.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/dyK2UV5NTLciL77Z8
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@Miffed where are these two inconspicuous signs?
We can normally beat an inadequately signed PPA, and looking on GSV I can't see any zone entry signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4fAAqaBckkDwuVph8
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Thank you John UK, I've added the GSV link to my original post, and here is the pcn[attach=1][attach=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up here both sides of the unredacted PCN and a GSV link to the location.
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The road is in Stanmore, part of Harrow Council, and no other road I know of nearby, has this arrangement
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I've just been given a pcn for parking in a residents only bay, in the street directly behind where I've lived for 4 years. Location is opposite 115 Green Lane, HA73AD.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ziy7vURKBWDbBggG9?g_st=ac
https://maps.app.goo.gl/BqpEhsJnmnFKPat59
In the past, I've only occasionally parked there when the spaces closer to me are all full. It used to be marked bays, adjacent to single yellow lines, that had no restrictions of any kind.
I parked the other night, and came out in the morning to find the pcn. There are no signs at all, next to any of the bays, there is even a signpost that is empty of any sign. That day I walked down the hill for about 80 metres and could not see a sign of any description on either side of the road. I queried the pcn with photos showing no signs.
Today I was told by a neighbour there are in fact 2 signs, much further down the hill, it's a one way road, and I've gone to see that they simply say entering a residents only parking area, past these signs. I've never seen this arrangement before, apparently it's called a PPA, but are they allowed to cover this large area of bays, with only 2 inconspicuous signs, which are in total contradiction to all other arrangements for resident's bays in the area, and without any signs next to the specific bays as has been normally the case as long as I've lived in London, some 40 years? I live 50 metres away, in a different road, and shouldn't letters have been sent to nearby residents notifying of the change?
[attachment deleted by admin]