Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Pothole_Percy on December 22, 2024, 03:13:10 am
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Hello again,
I finally received a reply from Haringey regarding the representations I submitted last month.
The bad news is they refused to cancel my PCN, but the good news is they have re-offered the discount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYs77vSF/Rejection-of-representation-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kD10cNs4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL7S5kj9/Rejection-of-representation-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zVy9PL2k)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rgKMPW8/Rejection-of-representation-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0rygDXpF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLdxFrCr/Rejection-of-representation-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LnGrdHrF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rp0kfHvL/Rejection-of-representation-5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZgX1chv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L80SBSQT/Rejection-of-representation-6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yD92sMHg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhfWvqLH/Rejection-of-representation-7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8Fm3rLsT)
I've now got a few days to decide what to do next. I'm inclined to accept the discount because I'm just not sure if I'd succeed at the tribunal.
stage.
@Hippocrates - What do you think I should do next?
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Happy to represent you.
Thanks so much. That would be fantastic!
No worries and thanks for signing my petition.
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Happy to represent you.
Thanks so much. That would be fantastic!
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Happy to represent you.
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Thanks @Hippocrates. That does not surprise me at all.
I've submitted my representations now and will certainly be taking this to the tribunal stage if the discount is not forthcoming. I'll report back with the council's response as soon as it turns up.
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Haringey do not reoffer the discount BTW.
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/london-councils-who-do-not-reoffer-the-discount-in-the-formal-notice-of-rejectio/msg57920/#msg57920
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Hello,
I need to submit representations today (Thursday 13 February 2025) for the outstanding PCN. That's the one that was blown away by the wind.
Here's a draft version of my submission:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the issuance of Parking Charge Notice ZN14947996 on the grounds that it was not served in accordance with Regulation 9 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007. Below, I provide details to support my representation and respectfully request the cancellation of this PCN.
Background:
- Permit Renewal Issue: I have always ensured that I hold a valid parking permit since moving into my current home. After receiving the reminder, I attempted to renew my permit but was unable to do so due to technical issues with the council's permit website. Unfortunately, as only one reminder was sent, I did not remember to renew it later.
- Rare Use of On-Street Parking: I primarily use off-street parking, and I only parked on the road under the belief that my permit was still valid.
- Issuance of Two PCNs for the Same Contravention: My vehicle did not move between the issuance of two separate PCNs for the same parking contravention. However, I only became aware of this PCN when I later checked the evidence online for the other PCN.
- Failure to Properly Serve the PCN: This PCN was missing from my vehicle when I discovered the other PCN. The PCN that I did find still had all its adhesive backing paper intact, meaning it was not originally affixed using its full adhesive surface. Given the particularly windy conditions at the time, it is reasonable to conclude that the missing PCN was not securely attached and was likely blown away.
- Lack of Response from the Council: Before receiving the Notice to Owner, I had written to the council seeking details of the missing PCN, but despite confirmation of receipt, I did not receive a formal response.
Grounds for Challenge:
I wish to challenge the PCN on the basis that it was not properly served as required under Regulation 9 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007. A PCN must be affixed to the vehicle or handed to the driver. In this case, it is highly probable that inadequate adhesive was used, and due to the windy weather conditions, the PCN became detached and was lost. This prevented me from being notified of the charge in a timely manner, thus removing my opportunity to pay at the discounted rate.
Additionally, the issuance of two PCNs for a single continuous contravention is unfair, particularly when the council failed to link them together on its system at the time. Furthermore, I took proactive steps to seek information about the missing PCN, but my request was not formally addressed.
Request for Cancellation:
Given the above, I respectfully request that this PCN be cancelled on the basis that:
- The PCN was not properly affixed to my vehicle, meaning it was not served correctly.
- The loss of the PCN prevented me from exercising my right to pay at the discounted rate.
- The circumstances surrounding the issuance of two PCNs for the same contravention were unfair and disproportionate.
- A technical issue with the council’s permit renewal system contributed to the contravention.
I would appreciate your prompt consideration of this matter, and I kindly request confirmation of the cancellation of the PCN.
Your faithfully,
Is there anything you think I should add or remove to increase my chances of a successful outcome?
Thanks.
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Hello again,
I decided to pay the first PCN at the discounted rate.
I'm now going to make representations for the second PCN that was blown away. I'd like to use most of my draft above and add this to the end:
I would l like to challenge the PCN as being not being served in accordance with Regulation 9 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007. This is because I believe that the PCN was not affixed to my windscreen with an adequately amount of adhesive. This probably resulted in it being blown away by a gust of wind. The reason I believe this to be the case is because the other PCN, served for the same parking contravention, had all its adhesive backing paper still in place when I removed it from under a windscreen wiper. Had that PCN not been moved there, it may have also blown away. I fail to understand why any PCN would be served in this way, especially during such windy weather, which was the case during the week when both PCNs were served. I request that this PCN be cancelled.
Is there anything else you think I should include? I have to submit this by the end of Thursday 13 February.
Thanks.
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I've been looking over the London Tribunals case list and I starting to feel less confident about being able to get any of the PCNs cancelled. With that in mind, I now believe my best option is to submit reps to the council for the NTO that I have received for the blown away PCN, with the aim of getting it either cancelled or the discount re-offered. Then pay both PCNs at the discounted rate.
Here's my draft reps for the PCN that was blown away, and for which I have recently received the NTO.
I would like to please request that this PCN be cancelled.
After receiving my parking permit reminder, I logged onto renew my permit. Due to a problem with the permit website, I was unable to complete the renewal process. Had more than one renewal reminder been sent out, I would have remembered to renew it again later.
There is off-street parking where I live, so I rarely need to park my car on the road, yet I have always made sure that I have had a parking permit since moving in. My permit renewal records will show this. On this occasion, I parked my car on the road only due to believing I had a valid permit.
Two PCNs were issued for the same parking contravention. My car had not moved at all between the two PCNs being issued. I did not notice the PCNs because I did not pass my car on my journey to work. Had I notice the first one before it was blown away, I would have moved my car immediately.
This PCN was not present on my car when I found the other PCN. I only knew of this PCN from viewing the evidence supporting the other PCN. At that stage the two PCNs were not linked together on the parking portal. Before the Notice to Owner arrived, I had written to the council to find the details of the first PCN. Even though my letter was received, I did not receive a formal reply.
The PCN I found on my car still had all its backing paper intact. This means that during a particularly windy period of weather, PCNs were affixed to cars using a limited amount adhesive. To me, this feels wrong. The other PCN was only there because someone had placed it under my windscreen wiper to stop it from being blown away. I have photographic evidence of this.
I would be very grateful if this PCN could be cancelled. I have received two PCNs for one parking contravention, which was partly due to a technical issue with the parking permit website. I also feel I have been unfairly penalised further due to the civil enforcement officer not affixing the PCN properly to my car, so it was eventually blown away in the wind and thus removing my option to pay at the discounted rate.
Are there any changes I should make to increase my chances of getting the PCN cancelled or just the discount re-offered?
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cp8759 has won a case recently on their website. 224044582A.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HFrUPGylRoFSWld2VemCsSvA8wmU5exX/view
It's reassuring to hear that their website has been recognised at being poorly designed. Do you think my experience of trying to renew my permit, but having issues in the process, might hold some weight now?
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Once you pay the discount, the case is closed for that PCN, and you cannot appeal to the adjudicators simply because they will not then serve a Notice to Owner. Only when reps against an NtO are refused can one appeal to the adjudicators.
I do understand that if I fold and pay at the discount, that's the end of one of the PCNs. But I do have another, which is now at the full amount, so I will take that all the way to the tribunal stage if required.
Do you think it will reduce my chances of getting the "blown away" PCN cancelled if I opt to pay the other PCN at the discounted rate? Does it weaken my case at all and might possibly be interpreted as some sort of admission of guilt?
My case for fighting the blown away PCN (after paying for the other PCN at the discounted rate) would be that it was not affixed properly to my car and I have already received a PCN for the same violation (I did not move my car between PCNs).
I need to decide whether to pay at the discounted rate by 22 January.
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cp8759 has won a case recently on their website. 224044582A.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HFrUPGylRoFSWld2VemCsSvA8wmU5exX/view
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Once you pay the discount, the case is closed for that PCN, and you cannot appeal to the adjudicators simply because they will not then serve a Notice to Owner. Only when reps against an NtO are refused can one appeal to the adjudicators.
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Thanks.
As I see it, there are four points in my defence.
- Website issues.
- Only sending one reminder.
- The first PCN being blown away due to not being affixed properly to my car.
- Getting two PCNs for effectively one transgression of the rules.
I feel the website issues will get throw out at every stage. I've not got any proof of the problem and I'd be really surprised that even if the site was faulty, I'd be able to get hold of any.
The "one reminder" process feels just like a blatant money making attempt. It feels so wrong. I just can't see the council letting me off due to this. I plan to speak with my local councillors about this after everything is concluded.
For the blown away PCN, I feel this is the most likely to get some clemency from the council, by getting the option to pay it at a discount. If this went up to the London Tribunals what are they likely to do?
I'm not sure about the two PCNs for one mistake. I imagine the Council would throw it out. How much of a chance is there that London Tribunals might agree with this being unfair? I have read that there is no guidance on how often a car can be ticketed, so that means the council is still within their rights to issue multiple tickets in one day. So two in three days starts to feel not so bad!
I'd like to understand what will stand to lose by paying the discounted PCN before the cut off date. As far as I can see, I am unlikely to get off both tickets, so paying one now would lock in the discount. I think my goal here is to try to reduce the amount I have to pay, so paying the discount makes sense to me. Am I missing anything?
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It all depends on how much you are prepared to fight. If the contravention they claim is fairly solid, then best result is probably getting the discount for PCN 2,and paying discount on PCN 1. However, you have the absolute right in law to take them all the way to London Tribunals, with the maximum amount in play the penalties of the two PCNs. No discount at London Tribunals, I'm afraid, its a double-or-quits gamble.
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Thanks @Incandescent. That's a good point. Worst case is this will cost me an extra £65, but I do feel it's important to tackle injustice when it occurs, which I feels has happened here.
So, should I wait for the NTO to arrive for the currently discounted PCN and them make reps for both NTOs together? What happens if the second NTO doesn't arrive in time?
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I feel I should fight the PCN that was blown away, but probably pay the other one before the cut off date, because I can't think of a good reason not to.
No point in paying until you've had reps rejected, and they may re-offer the discount when rejecting. Don't be confrontational; what you are after is to get the discount re-offered so make the point about the PCN not being on the vehicle, (blown away in the wind or something). The little neds seem to enjoy taking them off too.
If they don't reoffer the discount it's a no brainer to take them to London Tribunals using the narrative in your first post as your basis. Councils need to recognise their permit systems are not perfect.
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Hello again,
A Notice to Owner finally arrived on Saturday for the PCN that was blown away by the wind:
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6PJh3PH/Notice-to-Owner-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8FwkJX5h)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdF9qP4F/Notice-to-Owner-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sB3D2CVj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgDRRQyw/Notice-to-Owner-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/68JpDGgG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZcG35s4/Notice-to-Owner-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RW7Z9Zxp)
I've checked on the Haringey parking web portal and now conveniently both PCNs are linked together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jsc88Lg/Associtated-PCNs-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Here are the pictures from the newly revealed PCN:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBfG45P7/ZN14947996-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqTxz1WB/ZN14947996-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh6VVdmn/ZN14947996-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTJ81n82/ZN14947996-4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX0gr8kr/ZN14947996-5.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I have until 22 January 2025 to decide what to do about the PCN that was still suck to my car. That one is still at the discounted rate of £65.
For the PCN that was blown away, I need to send in representations by 13 February 2025. This is one is now at £130.
I feel I should fight the PCN that was blown away, but probably pay the other one before the cut off date, because I can't think of a good reason not to.
Any suggestions about what I should do?
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As expected, my challenge to the PCN failed. I have now been given a further 14 days to pay the discount charge of £65. This expires on 22 January 2025.
According to the letter below, there is another PCN associated with my car, and that will soon be posted to the registered keepers address. I'm hoping that will arrive before the 14 days is up.
Here's the letter I received:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFpZ2XWr/PCN-Challenge-Reply-1.png) (https://postimg.cc/N9TtH88b)
(https://i.postimg.cc/85zCyqPB/PCN-Challenge-Reply-2.png) (https://postimg.cc/kVL9GYSB)
I'll report back as soon as the other PCN arrives in the post.
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Well let us know when you get an answer, don't be surprised if they reject and don't let that discourage you.
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@cp8759 Sorry, I submitted the challenge for the PCN that was stuck to my car, I did this on the Haringey parking site after entering the PCN and my reg details. The cut off date for the reduced charged was 31st December. As no one had commented on my text, I thought it was alright to submit.
I don't have any screen shots of attempting to pay for the permit. I just remember what happened. When I looked back at my emails for that date, all were unread, except for the email reminding me to renew. That brought back the memory of my struggle with their renewal system.
If there are any other PCNs issued, they will have blown away. So your point about, "the necessary degree of adhesion", would be appropriate for them.
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@Pothole_Percy I hope you have not challenged the PCN yet? Unfortunately nothing in your initial draft is a statutory ground of appeal, so we need to find something better.
A key issue seems to be whether there was "the necessary degree of adhesion or attachment between the PCN and the vehicle to amount to fixing it to the vehicle", see Gbenga Ogunyemi v London Borough of Barnet (2190288340, 17 August 2019) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kpltkbg9ubWzBYapa1BTPnvDVZHZ8IHd/view).
Do you have any screenshots of when you first attempted to renew your permit?
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I sent you a PM saying don't worry about a missing PCN as you can deal with it at NTO stage provided your logbook address is correct.
Thanks for the IM. I appreciate the help.
My letter enquiring about any other PCNs recently issued for my car was delivered at 06:43 this morning to Haringey Council's Sheffield office. I've not had a response from them yet. I included my email address, postal address and phone number.
I also submitted my representation this evening for the PCN that I know about. The system confirmed it had been received with an automatic email.
I'll post an update here as soon as a I get a response.
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I sent you a PM saying don't worry about a missing PCN as you can deal with it at NTO stage provided your logbook address is correct.
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observation time on PCN 14.27 to 14.41
but the first pic is time stamped 14.27 with PCN already attached so must have been issued before 14.27 observation
last pic at 14.42 showing 2 x PCN
this seems wrong.
My thinking here is that there was already a PCN attached to the windscreen when the CEO observed the car. This then blew away as soon as the wind kicked up, leaving the latest PCN attached by a sliver of adhesive. I think that might have also nearly been blown away but some kind passer by probably grabbed it and placed it under the windscreen wiper, which is the only reason I have it now. knowing how this works, if I ever see a PCN flying by, I'll grab it and make every effort to re-unite it with the car it came from.
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Just to be extra sure, today I wrote a quick letter to Haringey's Sheffield address, asking if there are any other PCNs outstanding against my car. It was probably a waste of time, but you never know. They can't say I've not tried! I sent my letter First Class and Signed For, so at least I'll know when it arrives. It's such a shame they don't have phone number to call. That would have been so much quicker and easier. I included an email address and phone number in the letter, so there is a small chance someone might call or email me with the details, before the discount cut-off date runs out. Fingers crossed!
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observation time on PCN 14.27 to 14.41
but the first pic is time stamped 14.27 with PCN already attached so must have been issued before 14.27 observation
last pic at 14.42 showing 2 x PCN
this seems wrong.
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Thanks for the suggestions and the advice.
I misunderstood how the Haringey parking ticket viewer worked. I now understand that other PCNs issued for my reg should also be listed there. As there aren't any, it does now appear that only one was issued.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NgTgdJW/Associtated-PCNs.jpg)
I've written out my challenge statement below. I would be grateful if you could let me know if anything should be changed, before I submit it.
I would like to plead for clemency regarding this PCN.
I have been a Haringey resident since February 2023 and have always renewed my parking permit in good time. The last permit renewal arrived at 06:17 on Tuesday 2 July. The permit was due to expire on 5 August 2024. Quite soon after the renewal notice arrived I logged into the permit renewal portal in the early hours of the morning to renew the permit. I entered all my details, but as much as I tried, I could not get the site to complete the transaction. I believe I had reached a far as entering my credit card number. I tried this multiple times and from a different browser but it just did not go though. I made a mental note to try again the next day, but unfortunately I completely forgot and then later falsely remembered that I had successfully completed the process. I have since spoken to my bank to check if they have any record of a failed transactions around this time, but they were unable to find anything.
Since I have lived at my address, I have had access to off-street parking. Even though I mostly park there, I have always thought it prudent to pay for a resident's parking permit, just in case I needed to park my car in the street.
On Sunday 15th December, I returned from driving my car and found that a neighbour had parked in the place where I usually park, so I decided to park on the street instead. I had thought that I had a valid parking permit. I would never have left my car parked in the resident's parking bay if I had knew that my car was not covered by a valid permit. This is the reason I did not move my car back to the off-street parking before Monday's parking restrictions became active.
On the morning of Thursday 19 December, whilst I was leaving for work, a neighbour told me of the problem with my car. I checked my car and after seeing I had been issued with a PCN, I immediately moved it back to the off-street parking. The reason I did not notice the PCN on my car sooner is because my car was parked pointing away from my usual walking route to work.
I ask for clemency due to the problems renewing my parking permit. I did not intentionally leave my car parked in a resident's parking space without a valid resident's parking permit. I do understand that this issue is partially due to me forgetting to renew, but I would not have been in this position had the parking permit portal accepted my booking on the morning when I attempted to renew it.
Hope it's not to wordy. I'm trying to as honest as possible, and to give as much detail as I can.
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There are no other associated PCNs on Haringey's site so you seem to have only one.
There are appeals allowed where a system fooled people that they thought they had renewed a permit but you just forgot so I don't think you have anything other than. plea for discretion.
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Presumably you left the car parked for about 3 days, maybe more, so there will be more than one PCN. You need to contact the council straightaway to find out how many PCNs are outstanding against your car registration. Once you know this, you can submit reps based on your narrative here, and ask that they cancel all bar one of those PCNs provided you pay the first one served. Point out you are a resident and regularly update your parking permit. It is important not to be confrontational, but do mention that you received the update email, and tried to pay, but their system would not accept your payment.
You will need to submit the same reps for each PCN, with all the PCN Numbers on the reps.
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Hi everyone,
I'd like some advice regarding a PCN that was left on my car on Wednesday 18th December for parking in a resident's bay without a valid permit.
I thought I had a valid parking permit but I was obviously wrong. Back in July I opened the renewal email soon after it arrived late one night and tried to renew, but the system just would not accept my details. I gave up and planned to do it the next day, but completely forgot, thinking instead that I had already dealt with the permit. I have since checked with my bank, but they have no record of any failed attempts at paying for the parking permit.
The email for the permit renewal arrived at 06:17 on Tuesday 2 July and the permit was due to expire on 5 August 2024. Before this time I had regularly renewed my parking permits every six months. This was to be my fourth permit from Haringey. Haringey only sends out one reminder by email, so if you miss that, and forget to renew your permit, you are destined to get a ticket when you next park in a residents parking bay. There are no other reminders sent out. It's also not possible to auto renew a parking permit.
Where I live there is off-street parking, so I hardly ever need to use the permit. Last Sunday (15 December) I returned from a drive to my usual off-street parking place, where I found it being used by a neighbour. So, believing that I had a valid permit, I parked on the street.
Along with the PCN detailed here, there appears to have been at least one other PCN issued, but there was no sign of any others when I moved the car on Thursday morning (19 December). This is according to a neighbour who alerted me to the PCN stuck to the windscreen. The final picture taken by the CEO (below) shows two PCN plastic wallets attached to the windscreen. What I do not understand is why the CEO did not use the full adhesive backing to stick the wallet to the windscreen. On the wallet I have, all the adhesive protective backing is still intact. It looks like they stuck the wallet to the windscreen with the smallest amount of adhesive possible, so it's almost certain to be blown away. When I moved my car, a single PCN yellow wallet was tucked under the windscreen wiper on the drivers side.
Haringey does not provide any opportunity to locate a lost PCN. Their information states that if you lose a PCN, you must wait for the Notice to Owner, and there will be no option to pay at the discounted rate.
Here's summary of the above points:
- I tried to renew my permit but the system would not accept my details and then I forgot to renew later.
- I don't think it is fair to get issued with multiple PCNs for one parking violation.
- I imagine that the missing PCN(s) were blown away due to the way they were affixed to the windscreen.
- Haringey's process is not fair. It should be possible to get more than one reminder, locate lost PCNs and pay for permits automatically when they run out.
What's the best way to approach this now? Ideally I'd like to pay as little as possible, but I also feel so aggrieved at how Haringey treat their residents that I'm tempted to mentally write off the possible £390 charge and take this all the way!
Here is the Google Street View location:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ym825WctMHJj5b268
This is the PCN:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4L1NXKH/PCN-ZN14995285-front.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qgBq7pvY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhc9FGsz/PCN-ZN14995285-back.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0bFyZm0R)
These are photographs taken by the CEO:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTnFNVmJ/ZN14995285-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qJGBsRJ/ZN14995285-2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXCtZmqW/ZN14995285-3.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMGCH5vS/ZN14995285-4.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8Qgk39T/ZN14995285-5.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm4198tw/ZN14995285-6.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPBKc8tL/ZN14995285-7.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBWVtdQd/ZN14995285-8.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
This is the wallet with the backing still in place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFDkgVZ4/ZN14995285-wallet-back.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/65q2H4jG/ZN14995285-wallet-front.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Please let me know if you need any more information.
Thanks.