Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: correcthaunt on December 21, 2024, 06:48:21 pm
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I don't think there are any grounds for a review, I cannot see that the adjudicator has made any findings of fact or law that she wasn't entitled to make, nor can I see any procedural failings that vitiate the decision. If I was going to pursue a review I would have waited for the outcome of that before posting the outcome.
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My apologies, I wasn't clear as to whom the post was directed.
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How do these data address the threshold requirements for a review and under which grounds?
Was that aimed at me?
I simply asked @cp8759 whether he was considering an application for review. I did not make any comments or suggestions on the merits or otherwise of doing so. In fact, we don't even have all of the appeal submission so we could not do so.
I then posted a FOI request about this particular location and the contravention as a matter of general interest. Sadly a mere 0.37% of all of the PCNs issued reach the Adjudicator. And only slightly more than half of those that do prevail.
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How do these data address the threshold requirements for a review and under which grounds?
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Are you considering an application for review?
The below FOI request (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/pcn_statistics_11/response/3042950/attach/html/3/FOI%202025%20001089%20EIR%20RESPONSE.pdf.html) might be of general interest. 44 allowed vs 35 refused, for the handful of cases that reached the tribunal.
"EIR Reference: FOI-2025-001089
Date: 6th June 2025
Environmental Information Regulations 2004
Subject: Royal Albert Way E16/Gallions Roundabout
We write with regard to your recent enquiry for information held by the Council under the
provisions of the Environmental Information Regulations 2004.
Request and Response
1. How many PCN tickets have been issued on royal Albert Way E16 - Gallions Reach
roundabout the last 3 years?
21,521 PCNs issued at Royal Albert Way E16 / Gallions Roundabout E16 from
25th August 2023 to 14th May 2025.
2. How many have been appealed and has been successful?
4,357 Formal representations were received of which 218 cases were successful.
3. How many of them went to court and was cancelled by court order?
79 decisions were appealed of which 44 were allowed at Tribunal."
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MGbFddMQrhXkvHa1JAi6vswpBg0aqaNC/view).
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@correcthaunt well this location can be won on the merits of the signage, and on top of that it is possible the council made a procedural mistake (though I can't say for certain at this stage). I will drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you at the tribunal.
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Hi @cp8759 & @Incandescent,
Further to the post from yesterday I just got the below letter from the council acknowledging my Revoking Order.
Revoking Order
(https://i.postimg.cc/PCk2Vtzr/Acknowledgement-post-tec.png) (https://postimg.cc/PCk2Vtzr)
They have also enclosed a copy of the rejection notice that was “posted” to me in November 2024. This is bullshit as the rejection notice for other PCNs arrived together, but this one didn’t? They also never responded to my online submission with the same appeal AND never provided a copy when I asked for it under the Subject Access Request back in late December/January. Not to mention that I was checking the fee amount online troughtout that period and it went down to £65, but from £130 it went up to £195 during that time. So what they are saying just doesn’t add up and not to mention that all of a sudden they found the rejection notice…..
Copy of the Rejection
(https://i.postimg.cc/xcm6Pkm4/Copy-of-rejection.png) (https://postimg.cc/xcm6Pkm4)
I have until 19th of June 2025 if I wish to pay the reduced £65 GBP but this has caused so much heartache and effort that I would like to ask for help with appealing this to the tribunal. Is this something you can help me with? What do you need from me.
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The next step would be for Newham to refer the case to the tribunal, though I suspect they've sent you a letter offering to settle the matter for £65 as they're hoping you'll give up at this point.
You don't want to rely on the post, therefore starting from next week call London Tribunals once a week on 020 7520 7200 and ask them if the PCN has been referred to them by the council. Repeat until it is, once it is get the case number, give them your email address, and ask them to change the communications preference from post to email. And obviously let us know.
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Hi @cp8759 & @Incandescent,
I hope you are both well.
I just checked and the fine is showing as £65 GBP. I do not know when it was changed nor have I had any correspondence from the council and it has been almost 4 weeks since I got the confirmation from the court that I uploaded in my previous post.
What do I need to do now? Still just wait?
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Keep an eye on the amount due on the council website, once it drops to £130 you'll know the court order has been processed. At that point the council will either write to you directly, or refer the case to the tribunal.
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Got it so I do not need to do anything? Like resend my representation or? Now we just wait until they get in touch. Presumably, they will notify me.
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It means you are back to the PCN representations stage. The Order for Recovery, and the Charge Certificate re both cancelled, and the PCN is no longer registered at TEC.
At this point, Newham must seek guidance for the adjudicators at London Tribunals, because you have already submitted representations.
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Hi @cp8759 & @Incandescent,
I hope you are both well.
I have submitted my PE3 form as 13 days ago on Tue 29 Apr, 21:59, and got an auto response/acknowledgment e-mail.
Now I got the below letter from the court.
Postimage servers are down so I uploaded this the letter here as an attachment.
Is this also just an acknowledgment. It just says that the statutory declaration has been filled and (not cancelled) and to get in touch with the council.
What do I need to do now?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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This can definitely be won. Your email is overkill, "please see attached" would suffice.
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Thanks, I saw people defending this successfully, so I hope this can be defended. I will get back to you in DM.
If you think it's too much hassle, then I would just pay the £65.
Is that e-mail I drafted sufficient to be sent?
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Also, what is going to happen next? This gets allocated presumably to a court and then I have to go and appeal it? How will I know what to say?
The case will go to London Tribunals, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
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Also, what is going to happen next? This gets allocated presumably to a court and then I have to go and appeal it? How will I know what to say?
Not quite.
You submitted reps but got no reply. As this is an in-time declaration, TEC will cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery, setting the matter back to the point where you submitted reps. The council must then contact the adjudicator at London Tribunals for what they must do. No court is involved, although you may end up in front on an adjudicator at LT.
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Hi @cp8759 & @Incandescent,
3 courts later and I managed to get this witness signed, please see the picture below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7fW40Cmx/Scanned-20250429-1514-Form-PE3-witness-signed-Redacted.png) (https://postimg.cc/7fW40Cmx)
I have also drafted an email to tec@justice.gov.uk below, please let me know if this needs any amendments. I wasn’t sure if I should add My appeal as pdf to the below e-mail?
(https://i.postimg.cc/VJ08RYVX/My-appeal.png) (https://postimg.cc/VJ08RYVX)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
TO: tec@justice.gov.uk
CC: MYEMAIL@gmail.com
Subject: PN76007402 - Completed and Witnessed PE3 Form
Dear Sirs,
Please find attached my completed and witnessed PE3 form for your attention.
PCN number: PN76007402
Vehicle Registration Mark: HK67XBM
Applicant: London Borough of Newham
Location of contravention: Royal Albert Way E16 / Gallions Roundabout E16
Date of contravention: 19/10/2024
Kindly confirm receipt of this document at your earliest convenience. Should you require any further information or clarification to process this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Thank you for your assistance.
Yours faithfully,
My Name
My Bristol and London Address
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, what is going to happen next? This gets allocated presumably to a court and then I have to go and appeal it? How will I know what to say?
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Hi @cp8759 & @Incandescent,
Thanks for getting back to me and I will get the PE3 witnessed by someone at the court. I will ask around at the Stratford Magistrates' Court and Family Court as I am sure they do these a lot there given how awful Newham council is. If not then I will go to the Royal Courts of Justice and ask around there.
With regards to the form itself, I had printed a blank one months ago in anticipation of needing to do this, so now I will fill it in identically to how they’ve posted it. Once I have it all signed I will post a quick picture to confirm all good before sending over to tec@justice.gov.uk.
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For Form PE3, do remember when filling it in, that the "Applicant", (see top right of form) is the council. You are the "Respondent"
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You can print form PE3 yourself, there's no need to use the one they posted, you just need to make sure you fill it in correctly.
Only form PE3 needs to be witnessed as this is the form you're going to email back to the tec mailbox, the Order for Recovery isn't something that needs to be witnessed or sent anywhere. A county court officer can witness the form and it'll be easier to get an appointment for that, as justices of the peace can witness form PE3 but odds are they never have and they would not be familiar with the process.
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Thank you for your prompt response @cp8759.
I have 1 quick question on the following "If you get an Order for Recovery and a printed PE3 form before you have emailed the sworn PE3 form to TEC, you should fill it in, get it sworn and email it to the tec mailbox as soon as possible."
I do not physically have the copy as this was posted to Bristol and I am in London today.
My 2 questions:
1. Can't I just print one from the internet and have this witness and then submitted? Or does it have to be the one the issued?
2. Do I need to get the justice of the peace to witness the Order for Recovery too?
As soon as I have your confirmation, I will go to the Stratford Magistrates' Court and Family Court and ask for a justice of the peace appointment.
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Please read the guide here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
It hopefully tells you everything you need to know. The key issues are: don't miss the deadlines, and send all the documents to TEC by email rather than by post.
Once you've read the guide please let me know if you have any questions.
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Hi @cp8759,
I hope you are well.
You are correct in saying that there is no point in going back and forwards with the council. That said I do have proof of sending both the physical and electric copies, which I kept just in case I do need to use is/show it in court. Everything is in this thread as a backup too.
Quick update on the 3 from 2021 - Barking Rd/ Opp Oak Crescent :
#4 PN62628875
#5 PN62645400
#6 PN62647643
Nothing has changed here, these are still showing as £195 GBP and after 4 years it was still not registered. I might make that complaint to move this along.
Now, the Royal Albert Way E16 & Gallions Rd i.e. the main one.
On the 6th of January I have received the below letter from the council suggesting to reach out if I am struggling financially to pay the £195 GBP. This is fully documented in my Reply #6 on from January 08, 2025, 05:48:16 pm.
Fast forward to now and I just got the letter (issued 22nd of April 2025) from the court saying that the debt has been registered.
Here is the Letter:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8c7NnFh/Order-for-Recovery.png) (https://postimg.cc/G8c7NnFh)
Here is the updated price to £205.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y4NDbCms/PCN-Review-Updated.png) (https://postimg.cc/Y4NDbCms)
I read through the options and it looks like the “2. You made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of service of notice to owner / Enforcement Notice / Penalty Charge Notice and you did not receive a rejection notice.” option is the one applicable here. Thus my questions:
1. Which process do I need to follow now?
2. And if I need to go to court to get this witnessed signed which court London court can I go to?
a. Commissioner for Oaths/Officer Of the Court appointed by the Judge to take affidavits/Justice of the Peace – do I just ask for one in any court?
3. What else do I need to do?
As always, your help is greatly appreciated.
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@correcthaunt as far as I can see from the thread above, they never issued a rejection to your representations because for whatever reason they never receive the representations. They obviously can't provide a copy of a document that doesn't exist and there's no point in recriminating with them about whether they did or didn't receive the representations and whether a notice of rejection should or shouldn't exist. At this point you just want things to move along.
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Hi @cp8759,
Thank you for your prompt response and understood.
Before making the formal complaint, should I follow up with them regarding the information request they simply ignored?
As you may recall, I have reached out to them to get a copy of their response for my appeal but they never sent one nor sent me the copy (even though they provided copies for the other 3).
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@correcthaunt in practice if the council tried to register the debt after the six years have expired, the debt would still get registered as TEC just follows a tick-box exercise and nothing in their process tells them to check if the debt is over six years old. So unless you get Newham to cancel the PCN, this could be hanging over you for the rest of time.
I suggest you make a complaint asking them to issue an Order for Recovery for each of the outstanding PCNs, otherwise this matter could stay open for years.
https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/make-complaint/2
You must make it clear that you are not complaining about the PCNs as such, just about the fact that there's been such a huge delay in the council taking the next step in the statutory process. The complaint outcome you should ask for is for the Order for Recovery to be issued for each PCN.
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Hi @cp8759,
I hope all is well.
I think we can't really do anything until the 30 January deadline has expired.
Unsurprisingly the council has never responded to my request for information.
They have never registered this debt either. All 4 of the below PCNs are still showing as £195.
#1 PN75748188 – paid and case closed
#2 PN75748213 – paid and case closed
#3 PN76007402 – This is what the post is about re Albert Way
#4 PN62628875 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2 as council sent it to a wrong address.
#5 PN62645400 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2 as council sent it to a wrong address.
#6 PN62647643 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2 as council sent it to a wrong address.
I am honestly not sure how to handle this now. I am worried that leaving this will come back and bite me in the future but also don’t want to necessary force them to handle this and just wait the 6 years until the statutory limitation is up.
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PN76007402: You say that you made representations both online and by post, do you have a screenshot of the confirmation page or an acknowledgment email confirming that you made representations?
They said they would get back to me by 30th of January but nothing since.
I think we can't really do anything until the 30 January deadline has expired.
PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643: for these you really have nothing at all to worry about as the council is guilty of a gross delay in progressing the case, have a read of Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998)
Understood, so I should complain to the council to have this registered with TEC. Once this is done I can appeal. Only way to really get this closed?
Yes. It is possible that they might cancel it at the complaint stage if they realise their case is hopeless, but if they want to carry on then they will have to issue new PCNs to you once the previous ones are cancelled by TEC, if that happens you will have to make a representation based on the delay and then if the council rejects, you'll have to appeal to the tribunal.
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PN76007402: You say that you made representations both online and by post, do you have a screenshot of the confirmation page or an acknowledgment email confirming that you made representations?
Yes I have submitted my defence and got evidence of posting it both via post office as well as online. In the original post of this thread we have a copy of my representation submitted to them, and picture/screenshot of acknowledgments. Proof of the online submission is W26800139 but it doesn’t state the actual PCN on it. That’s just Newham’s system though
Also I note you made a Subject Access Request for this PCN, correct me if I'm wrong but this is still outstanding so for all we know, it might be that the council did receive your representation and it's the Notice of Rejection that got lost in the post?
Correct as per your suggestion I have asked them for a copy of the rejection. They said they would get back to me by 30th of January but nothing since. Even though they have provided the copies of the other request already. They did send me a letter saying to get in touch if I am struggling financially to repay it as they could help. I have posted a copy of that letter too.
PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643: for these you really have nothing at all to worry about as the council is guilty of a gross delay in progressing the case, have a read of Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998)
Understood, so I should complain to the council to have this registered with TEC. Once this is done I can appeal. Only way to really get this closed off?
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So let me summarise where I think we are:
PN76007402: You say that you made representations both online and by post, do you have a screenshot of the confirmation page or an acknowledgment email confirming that you made representations?
Also I note you made a Subject Access Request for this PCN, correct me if I'm wrong but this is still outstanding so for all we know, it might be that the council did receive your representation and it's the Notice of Rejection that got lost in the post?
PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643: for these you really have nothing at all to worry about as the council is guilty of a gross delay in progressing the case, have a read of Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-RndFZ_r1JlVDGvo13wKLGpDCy3OBXqW/view)
That decision has stook the test of time and adjudicator who made that decision went on to become a High Court Judge, then a judge of the Court of Appeal, and is currently the President of Welsh Tribunals, so he knows a thing or two.
Normally a delay of over 3 / 4 months is a bar to enforcement, in this case the delay is several years so there's no real doubt about what the outcome would be.
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@Enceladus, thanks for taking the time and looking into this.
You understanding and summary is correct.
There were 6 PCNs in total.
#1 PN75748188 – paid and case closed
#2 PN75748213 – paid and case closed
#3 PN76007402 – This is what the post is about re Albert Way
#4 PN62628875 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2 as council sent it to a wrong address.
#5 PN62645400 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2 as council sent it to a wrong address.
#6 PN62647643 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2 as council sent it to a wrong address.
Council made a mistake with the first two so when writing to them I found out about the #4, #5 & #6 which are for the car being in the yellow box. I am going to sit tight and wait for them to register the debt with the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
I note that the Ack receipt for your reps doesn't actually quote the PCN number, just an enquiry number. Is that true of the online Ack emails for the other PCNs?
Yes this is true for the other 2. I submitted my defence for PN75748188, PN75748213 & PN76007402. These were then posted to them too. I have 3 different references for that and none of them refers to the actual PCN.
The V5c for your car was last updated 07/09/2021. So I would suggest that the Registered Keeper address was likely incorrect prior to Sept 2021 and this is why you did not receive any of the notices for these three PCNs.
I requested a copy of these PCNs as per advice from @cp8759 and the address they had on file was indeed incorrect. I am not sure how this happened as I have been there since 2012 and because everything else is correct (first line, city and postcode) except the house number. It should be 39 but it’s 33. So, they sent this to a wrong address.
Re PN76007402 I want to appeal to the Adjudicator and I am quite confident it can be won as I have seen quite a lot of people here win this. That said, not so confident regarding the other 3. Although I have no faith that this will get ever registered as it has been so long that they would have done by now. That said I would like to know 2 things regarding them:
1. What would be my line of defence here for PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643?
2. Is there statutory limitation period i.e. an expiration date for council to register this with TEC?
Statutory Declaration (form PE3)
I also would like to clarify the process surrounding the Statutory Declaration (form PE3) & debt registration with the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC). Can I sign and have witnesses sign the PE3 form before the debt is officially registered with the TEC? I.e. can the date on the PE3 form precede the date of registration with TEC ensuring it's ready to submit as soon as the debt is registered? I am aware that I cannot submit the PE3 to the court or TEC until after the debt has been registered as it will get rejected.
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@Incandescent, thanks for getting back to me. Only PN76007402 is at Royal Albert Way E16 & Gallions Round. The other 3 (i.e. PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643) refer to a different location also in Newham but I found out about it while dealing with PN76007402 hence in this thread.
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As I understand the position.
You actually received PCN PN76007402 and
PCN date = 29/10/2024
Reps created = 10/11/2024
Online Representation date = 11/11/2024
Acknowledgement receipt date = 11/11/2024 22:13, Ack Ref = W26800139
Reps physically posted = 12/11/2024 & proof of posting received
Charge Cert date = 19/12/2024
Non statutory letter date = 06/01/2025
So for PCN PN76007402 you received the PCN and you submitted a representation online within the deadlines. You posted via Royal Mail your reps next day for good measure and obtained a proof of posting. The Council then issued a Charge Cert and a non-statutory follow up letter. The PCN currently sits at £195 due on their website.
All of the above being true then you need to sit tight and wait for them to register the debt with the Traffic Enforcement Centre which will add the £10 court fee to the amount due. Registering the debt allows them to issue and serve an Order for Recovery.
When you receive the Order for Recovery you can complete and submit to the TEC the Statutory Declaration (form PE3) that will be included. Tick the box that says "I made representations about the penalty charge to the local authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner/Enforcement Notice/Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice". One box only.
The TEC will order the OfR revoked and the CC cancelled and the case should be referred to the Adjudicator for direction on how to proceed. Standing practice is for the Council to re-serve the Notice of Rejection where one exists. You can then pay or submit an appeal to the Adjudicator. If no NoR exists then the Adjudicator will schedule a hearing, the case will be heard as if it were an appeal. You will be invited to make a submission and to attend in person or by phone.
As you are aware you don't actually have to receive the OfR in order to submit the SD. You can download the form, complete it, get it witnessed and email it to the TEC once you see that the charge due has increased to £205 from the current £195.
I wouldn't bother with any further follow up correspondence with Newham. They've had their chance.
I note the the Ack receipt for your reps doesn't actually quote the PCN number, just an enquiry number. Is that true of the online Ack emails for the other PCNs?
RE: PCNs PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643. These PCNs are all in Feb 2021. The V5c for your car was last updated 07/09/2021. So I would suggest that the Registered Keeper address was likely incorrect prior to Sept 2021 and this is why you did not receive any of the notices for these three PCNs. Sit tight with these as well.
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The signage at the locations for your PCNs has already been subject to damning criticism by one of the longest serving adjudicators in London Tribunals, and the case(s) involved can, and must, be quoted in your reps.
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PN76007402
Why wouldn’t the council get my representations? I posted all 3 together and they responded to the first two.
The post office receipt suggests you sent three separate letters in three separate envelopes. Royal Mail used to be 99.97% reliable back in the day, but that all stopped with Covid and they never really recovered, see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8nkj2k237o and https://www.thecomet.net/news/24098443.anger-rogue-postman-dumped-peoples-letters/ and https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6513571/postman-sacked (I'm sure there's many more).
So, we'll never know why but for whatever reason one of the three envelopes was never received, it is what it is.
As for the Order for Recovery, you could just rely on the Royal Mail delivering it, but if the postie throws it in a hedge you then have a real problem.
You don't need to call TEC, just check the amount on the council website every couple of weeks, once the penalty goes up from £195 to £205 you know that the debt has been registered.
For PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 you could raise a formal complaint on the grounds of undue delay using the complaint form here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/make-complaint/2
If you go down the complaint route you need to make it very clear that you're not complaining about the PCNs or asking them to cancel them, you're only complaining about the undue delay in the council following the statutory process, and make it clear that all you want them to do is carry on with the next statutory step i.e. register the debt with TEC. Maybe post a draft on here first.
PN76007402
I hear you regarding the post office and that's fine, although I would imagine they should have received it. That said, I still submitted it online so either way they should have gotten it somehow.
Checking the website once a week won't be a problem so that should be fine.
PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643
Say I do the complaint, and they proceed to register it. I then do the PE3, and it starts the process again.
What happens then? How do I go about getting it dismissed? I would be happy to pay £65 for the first one only. Had I actually received it, I would have paid the £65 and be extra careful with that box and never let the other two happen.
Also that camera has been since destroyed by someone so not sure if this helps me or not as it clearly worked at the time
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PN76007402
Why wouldn’t the council get my representations? I posted all 3 together and they responded to the first two.
The post office receipt suggests you sent three separate letters in three separate envelopes. Royal Mail used to be 99.97% reliable back in the day, but that all stopped with Covid and they never really recovered, see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8nkj2k237o and https://www.thecomet.net/news/24098443.anger-rogue-postman-dumped-peoples-letters/ and https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6513571/postman-sacked (I'm sure there's many more).
So, we'll never know why but for whatever reason one of the three envelopes was never received, it is what it is.
As for the Order for Recovery, you could just rely on the Royal Mail delivering it, but if the postie throws it in a hedge you then have a real problem.
You don't need to call TEC, just check the amount on the council website every couple of weeks, once the penalty goes up from £195 to £205 you know that the debt has been registered.
For PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 you could raise a formal complaint on the grounds of undue delay using the complaint form here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/make-complaint/2
If you go down the complaint route you need to make it very clear that you're not complaining about the PCNs or asking them to cancel them, you're only complaining about the undue delay in the council following the statutory process, and make it clear that all you want them to do is carry on with the next statutory step i.e. register the debt with TEC. Maybe post a draft on here first.
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@correcthaunt for PN76007402 obviously the council never received your representations. You send a representation by post, that was obviously a mistake: anything you send by post gets scanned into the computer and the paper copy is immediately shredded, so it's a massive waste of time. If you make a representation online it goes directly into the council computer, so as well as being immediate, cheaper and more environmentally friendly you avoid the risk of postal issue. You now for next time. For now, all you can do is wait for the debt to be registered.
For this PCN, follows the process outlined here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
For PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643, there's nothing you can do aside from waiting for the debt to be registered with TEC. Follow the process outlined here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
By law statutory declarations can be done at either the County Court or the Magistrates' Court, but the County Court will be easier because they do it all the time, the staff at the Magistrates' Court might have no idea how the process works so it's not really worth the hassle of having to deal with them. As an alternative, any high street solicitor will normally do this for around £10 / £15.
Once you've made the statutory declarations let me know, but do not submit them before the debt is registered with TEC or they'll just get rejected.
Hi @cp8759,
Thank you for getting back to me, I really appreciate it.
PN76007402
Why wouldn’t the council get my representations? I posted all 3 together and they responded to the first two. Not to mention that I also submitted my representation for all 3 online as well. The proof of submission can be seen on the original post. I feel like this one is going to be registered but I am curious to see what they say to the request for information. Will I be notified of this being registered with TEC or do I need to check with TEC myself on weekly basis?
Thank you for the link I will prepare the PE3 just in case now.
PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643
It’s annoying that there's nothing I can do aside from waiting for the debt to be registered with TEC. Given that these happened in 2021 and haven’t been registered yet I don’t think they will do so any time soon. Last two questions on this
1. Do these things expire or can the council go after this in 20 years from now?
2. Will I be notified of this being registered with TEC or do I need to check with TEC myself regularly?
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@correcthaunt for PN76007402 obviously the council never received your representations. You send a representation by post, that was obviously a mistake: anything you send by post gets scanned into the computer and the paper copy is immediately shredded, so it's a massive waste of time. If you make a representation online it goes directly into the council computer, so as well as being immediate, cheaper and more environmentally friendly you avoid the risk of postal issue. You now for next time. For now, all you can do is wait for the debt to be registered.
For this PCN, follows the process outlined here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
For PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643, there's nothing you can do aside from waiting for the debt to be registered with TEC. Follow the process outlined here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
By law statutory declarations can be done at either the County Court or the Magistrates' Court, but the County Court will be easier because they do it all the time, the staff at the Magistrates' Court might have no idea how the process works so it's not really worth the hassle of having to deal with them. As an alternative, any high street solicitor will normally do this for around £10 / £15.
Once you've made the statutory declarations let me know, but do not submit them before the debt is registered with TEC or they'll just get rejected.
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Re: PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643. Have your received Orders for Recovery for each one? As I understand you all three are still sitting at £195. So I think no OfRs have been issued, so you cannot submit Statutory Declarations (form PE3).
You can get Statutory Declarations witnessed at a Magistrate's Court (or a Solicitor) but you will likely need an appointment and there will be a fee payable for each document. Not sure how much in Stratford, guesstimate £10. That said you can get SD's witnessed at a County Court for free. Some of the Court officials are authorised to witness documents. Any convenient County Court will do. However it's best to phone first and check the opening hours and make an appointment if that's what they want.
Do you want me to create a separate thread for PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643? For the moment leave these three together, until a forum member asks you to separate. As things stand your case(s) and what has and has not happened is too confusing. And some of the members are easily confused.
Re: PN76007402. That's a separate thread already. I'll look into it and post back later.
Re: PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643. I have not received RoF, and this has happened back in 2021.
RE: Statutory Declarations. Got it so it has to be a County Court and not Magistrates' Court.
RE New thread. I only found out about PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 because of writing to council regarding 2 different PCNs as explained above. This case was created for PN76007402.
I tried my hardest to make this as simple as possible but the whole thing is a bit of a mess.
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Re: PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643. Have your received Orders for Recovery for each one? As I understand you all three are still sitting at £195. So I think no OfRs have been issued, so you cannot submit Statutory Declarations (form PE3).
You can get Statutory Declarations witnessed at a Magistrate's Court (or a Solicitor) but you will likely need an appointment and there will be a fee payable for each document. Not sure how much in Stratford, guesstimate £10. That said you can get SD's witnessed at a County Court for free. Some of the Court officials are authorised to witness documents. Any convenient County Court will do. However it's best to phone first and check the opening hours and make an appointment if that's what they want.
Do you want me to create a separate thread for PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643? For the moment leave these three together, until a forum member asks you to separate. As things stand your case(s) and what has and has not happened is too confusing. And some of the members are easily confused.
Re: PN76007402. That's a separate thread already. I'll look into it and post back later.
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firstly what a mess, if you'd appealed everything with our help we could have probably got everything cancelled, you know for next time.
So here are your follow-up actions:
1) Stop all communication with the London Borough of Newham. The more you contact them asking for a resolution, the more they mess things up and the more work we have untangling everything. Even if the council tries to help, they are incompetent and will typically make things worse. Where you need to contact them for a specific PCN, I have said so explicitly below.
2) You posted PCNs PN74748188 and PN75748213 here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/newham-code-52m-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-types-of-vehicle/ and I told you to follow the statutory process to get them reset, instead you accepted the council's "offer" of a discretionary reset which they would have been obliged to give you anyway. Basically you've been mugged, but as I said you know for next time.
3) For PCN PN76007402, there are no "tribunal letters" and if you do nothing you will end up with an Order for Recovery. That is not the end of the world, but it's far better to find out if there is a Notice of Rejection. So, for this particular PCN, make a subject access request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of the Notice of Rejection issued for this PCN to be emailed to you, you will need to provide proof of ID and proof of address as per the lists provided here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/requesting-personal-information
If it turns out a Notice of Rejection does exist (which it almost certainly does) then it will have been lost in the post, but that doesn't matter as an appeal can still be filed, I can also represent you at the tribunal, the location in question is reasonably straightforward to win on appeal.
4) PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643: Two things here: firstly make a separate Subject Access Request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of all information held in respect of these PCNs (you don't want it mixed up with the request for PN76007402). Secondly do not send any other communication to the council about these PCNs, in particular do not "appeal" or make representations against them, and do not ask them to "reset" them to £65 or to any other amount, at the moment you're just on an information gathering exercise.
For these three PCNs even though you have not received a charge certificate we know one has been issued, therefore this time please listen to me and follow the process described here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
We can almost certainly get these three PCNs cancelled altogether, so if were to accept a "generous offer" from the council to close these for £65 each, again you would just be getting mugged.
Hi @cp8759,
Please see an update for each point below.
My action points:
1. Stopped all communication with the London Borough of Newham (LBN).
2. E-mail regarding PCN PN76007402 sent to LBN.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dhNL7Nrq/Subject-Access-Request-Notice-of-Rejection-PCN-PN76007402.png) (https://postimg.cc/dhNL7Nrq)
30/12/2024 09:24 LBN responds saying this was passed to the Parking Enforcement team and I should hear back by no later than 30 January 2025.
07/01/2025 Letter from Newham council arrives suggesting to get in touch if I am struggling to afford to pay the outstanding amount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQmzgCf8/Cost-of-living.png) (https://postimg.cc/hQmzgCf8)
3. E-mail regarding PCN PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 sent to LBN.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8FFsLdmL/Subject-Access-Request-PCNs-PN62628875-PN62645400-PN62647643.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FFsLdmL)
30/12/2024 09:24 LBN responds saying this was passed to the Parking Enforcement team and I should hear back by no later than 30 January 2025.
03/01/2025 11:12 LBN provides me the PDF of both the Notice and the Charge letters that have never been received...
PN62628875
(https://i.postimg.cc/jDnNtQFS/PN62628875-response.png) (https://postimg.cc/jDnNtQFS)
PN62645400
(https://i.postimg.cc/2qpW6bsF/PN62645400-response.png) (https://postimg.cc/2qpW6bsF)
PN62647643
(https://i.postimg.cc/qz5nPZQF/PN62647643-response.png) (https://postimg.cc/qz5nPZQF)
4. Questions:
a) 08/01/2025 I called the TEC on 0300 123 1059 and asked about all 4 PCNs and none of them have been registered.
The owed amount is still showing as £195 GBP on the council website for every single one of them.
What do I do here now?
b. Do I need this PE3 form for each PCN?
c. Could I just go to Stratford Magistrates' Court and Family Court and ask someone to sign this for me?
d. Should I wait for the LBN to respond to my request first before I do the PE3?
e. Can I do the PN76007402 as well just to save myself going back to the court twice? If so, would I need to tick a different option here?
5. Do you want me to create a separate thread for PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643?
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Hi @cp8759,
HNY.
Please can you kindly take a look at my reply from the 27th when you get a moment?
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@correcthaunt firstly what a mess, if you'd appealed everything with our help we could have probably got everything cancelled, you know for next time.
So here are your follow-up actions:
1) Stop all communication with the London Borough of Newham. The more you contact them asking for a resolution, the more they mess things up and the more work we have untangling everything. Even if the council tries to help, they are incompetent and will typically make things worse. Where you need to contact them for a specific PCN, I have said so explicitly below.
2) You posted PCNs PN74748188 and PN75748213 here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/newham-code-52m-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-types-of-vehicle/ and I told you to follow the statutory process to get them reset, instead you accepted the council's "offer" of a discretionary reset which they would have been obliged to give you anyway. Basically you've been mugged, but as I said you know for next time.
3) For PCN PN76007402, there are no "tribunal letters" and if you do nothing you will end up with an Order for Recovery. That is not the end of the world, but it's far better to find out if there is a Notice of Rejection. So, for this particular PCN, make a subject access request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of the Notice of Rejection issued for this PCN to be emailed to you, you will need to provide proof of ID and proof of address as per the lists provided here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/requesting-personal-information
If it turns out a Notice of Rejection does exist (which it almost certainly does) then it will have been lost in the post, but that doesn't matter as an appeal can still be filed, I can also represent you at the tribunal, the location in question is reasonably straightforward to win on appeal.
4) PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643: Two things here: firstly make a separate Subject Access Request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of all information held in respect of these PCNs (you don't want it mixed up with the request for PN76007402). Secondly do not send any other communication to the council about these PCNs, in particular do not "appeal" or make representations against them, and do not ask them to "reset" them to £65 or to any other amount, at the moment you're just on an information gathering exercise.
For these three PCNs even though you have not received a charge certificate we know one has been issued, therefore this time please listen to me and follow the process described here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
We can almost certainly get these three PCNs cancelled altogether, so if were to accept a "generous offer" from the council to close these for £65 each, again you would just be getting mugged.
Agreed and in hindsight I should have reached out here first.
My action points:
1. Stopped all communication with the London Borough of Newham (LBN).
2. E-mail regarding PCN PN76007402 sent to LBN.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dhNL7Nrq/Subject-Access-Request-Notice-of-Rejection-PCN-PN76007402.png) (https://postimg.cc/dhNL7Nrq)
3. E-mail regarding PCN PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643 sent to LBN.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8FFsLdmL/Subject-Access-Request-PCNs-PN62628875-PN62645400-PN62647643.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FFsLdmL)
Got an OOO stating that they are not going to be back until 2nd of January. Not sure how long they have to respond for these requests, but I will chase them by 9th if I haven’t heard back.
4. Regarding following that process, I have a few questions:
a. The owed amount is showing as £195 GBP on the council website, so I don’t think this was registered with TEC. If it hasn’t done you still want me to follow the process? And on Monday I will call TEC on 0300 123 1059 to find out if these were registered.
b. Do I need this PE3 form for each PCN?
c. Could I just go to Stratford Magistrates' Court and Family Court and ask someone to sign this for me?
d. Should I wait for the LBN to respond to my request first before I do the PE3?
e. Can I do the PN76007402 as well just to save myself going back to the court twice? If so, would I need to tick a different option here?
5. Do you want me to create a separate thread for PN62628875, PN62645400 & PN62647643?
-
@correcthaunt firstly what a mess, if you'd appealed everything with our help we could have probably got everything cancelled, you know for next time.
So here are your follow-up actions:
1) Stop all communication with the London Borough of Newham. The more you contact them asking for a resolution, the more they mess things up and the more work we have untangling everything. Even if the council tries to help, they are incompetent and will typically make things worse. Where you need to contact them for a specific PCN, I have said so explicitly below.
2) You posted PCNs PN74748188 and PN75748213 here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/newham-code-52m-failing-to-comply-with-a-prohibition-on-certain-types-of-vehicle/ and I told you to follow the statutory process to get them reset, instead you accepted the council's "offer" of a discretionary reset which they would have been obliged to give you anyway. Basically you've been mugged, but as I said you know for next time.
3) For PCN PN76007402, there are no "tribunal letters" and if you do nothing you will end up with an Order for Recovery. That is not the end of the world, but it's far better to find out if there is a Notice of Rejection. So, for this particular PCN, make a subject access request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of the Notice of Rejection issued for this PCN to be emailed to you, you will need to provide proof of ID and proof of address as per the lists provided here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/contact-information/requesting-personal-information
If it turns out a Notice of Rejection does exist (which it almost certainly does) then it will have been lost in the post, but that doesn't matter as an appeal can still be filed, I can also represent you at the tribunal, the location in question is reasonably straightforward to win on appeal.
4) PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643: Two things here: firstly make a separate Subject Access Request to InformationRightsTeam@newham.gov.uk asking for a copy of all information held in respect of these PCNs (you don't want it mixed up with the request for PN76007402). Secondly do not send any other communication to the council about these PCNs, in particular do not "appeal" or make representations against them, and do not ask them to "reset" them to £65 or to any other amount, at the moment you're just on an information gathering exercise.
For these three PCNs even though you have not received a charge certificate we know one has been issued, therefore this time please listen to me and follow the process described here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
We can almost certainly get these three PCNs cancelled altogether, so if were to accept a "generous offer" from the council to close these for £65 each, again you would just be getting mugged.
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Sorry, but it's not completely clear - how many PCNs are outstanding, (i.e not paid). It would be better if you could list them with date of PCN, and for each one, say what stage it is at.
For PCNs at the Charge Certificate stage, for which you have submitted representations, you have to now wait for the Order for Recovery for each of those, and then submit a Statutory Declaration to the TEC that you made representations, but received no Notice of Rejection of Reps. TEC will then cancel the OfRs and the CCs and the matter then reverts to the PCN stage.
After the end date for payment of the CCs, you need to be proactive, and to check the amount outstanding on the Newham website. When it goes up by £10 to £205, the debt has been registered and you can submit your SD. You don't even have to wait for the Order for Recovery to arrive, because you can download the form from the EC website.
Your case does seem to be a bit of a Dog's Breakfast, and the usual incompetence and stupidity of Newham is on display. Just remember that Newham do not re-offer the discount after rejecting representations, making it a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals where you are sure to win, because these signs have been declared as non-compliant by at least one adjudicator.
Thanks for looking into this for me and I know it’s a lot and I did my best trying to explain everything as there were 6 PCNs and very poor to non-existent communication from Newham.
#1 PN75748188 – paid and case closed
#2 PN75748213 – paid and case closed
#3 PN76007402 – This is what the post is about re Albert Way
#4 PN62628875 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2
#5 PN62645400 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2
#6 PN62647643 – never knew about this until they mentioned it in the e-mail when dealing with #1 and #2
PN76007402
This is the Albert way one where I got the notice about on the 19th of December. I appealed as per original post but never got a response, neither that they agree or rejected my appeal. Then they sent me a Charge Certificate saying I never submitted a representation which is just not true. While dealing with them I found out about the other 3.
If the goal is to wait for Order for Recovery but what if they never register it like they didn’t with the below 3?
PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643
And the other 3 that I found out about from their e-mail. All 3 are from 2021 and I never got anything in post from neither them or the Tribunal so it’s hard to say what stage this is at. I only accidently found out about them on that e-mail from the council.
I never got any Order for Recovery for the above 3 and the council website says that these are still at £195 each after almost 5 years so nothing was registered. I read somewhere that they have only 6 years to act on this and given their incompetence it looks like they won’t do anything re this… Unless the newly elected MP has other ideas!
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Sorry, but it's not completely clear - how many PCNs are outstanding, (i.e not paid). It would be better if you could list them with date of PCN, and for each one, say what stage it is at.
For PCNs at the Charge Certificate stage, for which you have submitted representations, you have to now wait for the Order for Recovery for each of those, and then submit a Statutory Declaration to the TEC that you made representations, but received no Notice of Rejection of Reps. TEC will then cancel the OfRs and the CCs and the matter then reverts to the PCN stage.
After the end date for payment of the CCs, you need to be proactive, and to check the amount outstanding on the Newham website. When it goes up by £10 to £205, the debt has been registered and you can submit your SD. You don't even have to wait for the Order for Recovery to arrive, because you can download the form from the EC website.
Your case does seem to be a bit of a Dog's Breakfast, and the usual incompetence and stupidity of Newham is on display. Just remember that Newham do not re-offer the discount after rejecting representations, making it a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals where you are sure to win, because these signs have been declared as non-compliant by at least one adjudicator.
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Hi @cp8759 & @Incandescent,
Thank you for taking the time to look into this for me.
I have just received a charge certificate dated 19th of December 2024.
Context:
Back in November I received 3 letters from council:
#1 - Charge certificate for entering Manor road
#2 - Charge certificate for existing the Manor road
#3 – PCN for this 52m @ Royal Albert Way
I made a post here on this website for #1 and #2 then I appealed all three with the council (both sending both letters and submitted them online). The council wrote back in two identical letters that they rejected appeal 1 twice… but left 2 untouched. Reduced the fees from £190 each to £65 as I was never provided PCNs for them. I paid this off to not deal with this anymore, more on this below.
For appeal 3 I never heard back.
This is the PCN that I got for #3
(https://i.postimg.cc/yW18jyLF/Original-PCN.png) (https://postimg.cc/yW18jyLF)
And their evidence:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QF2MqLzt/Evidence-from-the-website.png) (https://postimg.cc/QF2MqLzt)
https://youtu.be/F1iC2xXjHzQ
You can see that once the driver has processed that this was in fact a different sign to the regular 40mph they started to break/stop but it was already too deep into the turn.
Here is the location from Street View link in Google Maps, and the sign it’s showing as 40mph:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PA9AZBUZuRedBEQN8
I then submitted the previously mentioned appeal both online and send this via post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sQyDtYsC/My-appeal.png) (https://postimg.cc/sQyDtYsC)
Here is proof of postage – all 3 letters were sent together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YG3qkvCG/proof-of-postage.png) (https://postimg.cc/YG3qkvCG)
And here is proof of the online submission:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CnxMKwRv/proof-of-the-online-submission-W26800139.png) (https://postimg.cc/CnxMKwRv)
Since then, the council has rejected appeal 1 and 2, and as I didn’t want to deal with this anymore, I just paid £130 (2x£65, which was better than the original £190x2 they wanted!). However, the council made a mistake, and only reduced #1 from £190 to £65 and left #2 at £190. As the website allowed you to input whatever amount you wish to pay, I just paid £65 each and wrote to them on their portal to say they have made an administrative mistake and need to rectify that.
A few days later I got this response:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hrcx5WBR/Council-e-mail-response.png) (https://postimg.cc/Hrcx5WBR)
Here they have confirmed that #1 and #2 is resolved but that there are 4 more cases in their system.
Here was my response to them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8FLzKK8b/my-response-to-council-e-mail.png) (https://postimg.cc/8FLzKK8b)
I have heard nothing back in the e-mail or via post, until just now I got charge certificate dated 19th of December 2024
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z0wKMvQX/Charge-Certificate.png) (https://postimg.cc/Z0wKMvQX)
Questions
Now, what do I do here?
Do I write back to the council saying they have never responded to my appeal?
Do I wait for the tribunal letters?
Also, what should I do about PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643, these are from 2021…?
PN62628875, PN62645400, PN62647643
These are 3 charges that as explained in my response to them I was never notified. Their e-mail was the first time I found out about them. All 3 all for the same thing, back wheel was in the yellow box in Newham, but this was in 2021! I checked on the register and no judgements have been registered against me so I have no clue what I need to do with these as paying £570 (£190x3) for something I only found via their e-mail is ridiculous at best. Do I just leave it until a letter from the courts appear?
I understand that there is a lot of info here so thank you for taking the time to look through this.