Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: DolbyAtmos on August 23, 2023, 10:22:47 am

Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: cp8759 on November 30, 2023, 09:21:28 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1EXiNSAi2QP_d_jKV7o2tYX0IiO3OwM5l).
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: cp8759 on September 22, 2023, 11:54:47 pm
I'll drop you a PM.
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: DolbyAtmos on September 22, 2023, 11:52:01 am
Quote from: cp8759 on September 21, 2023, 11:37:39 pm
To make things significantly simpler, would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?

Hi cp8759,

Thank you for your offer of representing me, If you insist on representing me than i would be obliged. However if you are busy but can point me to the correct reference material i can represent myself at the tribunal.  :)

Please PM me with best way to take this forward. Thank you.
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: cp8759 on September 21, 2023, 11:37:39 pm
To make things significantly simpler, would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: DolbyAtmos on September 20, 2023, 07:54:07 pm
Quote from: cp8759 on September 12, 2023, 11:05:44 am
Just had this from TFL:

The camera located outside 121 Stoke Newington Road is a TfL Streets CCTV Camera No. 04/011417.

This is a Bosch Security MIC IP Starlight 7100i camera.


I don't believe TFL have a certificate for this particular model of camera, if the camera isn't approved by the Secretary of State then there is no power to serve a postal PCN. Therefore service of the PCN is a procedural impropriety.

That is good to know, is there somewhere i can refer to this info as evidence as i have Received the Notice of Reject today !

(https://i.imgur.com/zTw1CZu.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/cTSsZ4A.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tLWSz0i.jpeg)
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: cp8759 on September 12, 2023, 11:05:44 am
Just had this from TFL:

The camera located outside 121 Stoke Newington Road is a TfL Streets CCTV Camera No. 04/011417.

This is a Bosch Security MIC IP Starlight 7100i camera.


I don't believe TFL have a certificate for this particular model of camera, if the camera isn't approved by the Secretary of State then there is no power to serve a postal PCN. Therefore service of the PCN is a procedural impropriety.
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: cp8759 on August 30, 2023, 11:58:00 pm
Just say "the contravention did not occur", don't mention anything else.
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: DolbyAtmos on August 30, 2023, 04:39:41 pm
Hi cp8759,

Thank you for your response, i appreciate the trouble you have gone through to get the details.
I will make representations denying the contravention.
Just to add my Registration number is YT66 HJA and the PCN number is GX07059631.

Hopefully you get some information sent to you regarding the make and model of the CCTV camera, which you can share.  :)

Just to add, in the appeal section -after I have chosen the contravention did not occur a further question is asked;

Supporting Evidence
Tell us more about why you want to challenge this PCN.

Should I mention the the CCTV camera is not approved + the traffic order does not prohibit the vehicle stopping there ? Not sure if i can leave that space blank.
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: cp8759 on August 27, 2023, 02:40:51 pm
So there's a few interesting points here. The traffic order is The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Hackney) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1nKIasnoMqHziJSAr2N9ClJfbAK76Wwbg) and the relevant entry is number 183 on page 33:

WALFORD ROAD, the north side from the extended southern building line of No. 121 P.H. Stoke Newington Road to a point 13 metres west of the extended eastern building line of No. 121 P.H. Stoke Newington Road

It is certainly arguable that the traffic order does not prohibit stopping where the vehicle stopped:

(https://i.imgur.com/slLES17.png)

It would turn on whether the "extended eastern building line" includes the extension that's been added to the eastern end of the building. However even if we include that, the road markings are wrong, though not as much:

(https://i.imgur.com/4B5J1Q6.png)

It's unfortunate you didn't park on the other side of the road, as The GLA Side Roads (London Borough of Hackney) Designation Order 2007 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1ijMIBsqTPxhd2Wwdbbrd29_JxQKQXQGZ) suggests that the southern side isn't a GLA side road at all, see page 24.

Anyway, the other issue that could win the day is the question of camera approval, as happened yesterday in Anish Raj Shrestha v Transport for London (2230256263, 26 August 2023) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1dFUa8HEcUh2HyuDprMyvoP1NZ67kMZWA), I have therefore requested details of the make and model of the CCTV camera.

For now I would urgently make a representation simply denying the contravention, otherwise TFL might simply claim that you didn't make representations within the 28 day period (which expired months ago as far as I can see), I know they say the PCN is put on hold when you request the DVD but whether they honour that can be a bit hit and miss.

It would be helpful if you could give us the PCN number and number plate so that we can check the online status of the penalty.
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: DolbyAtmos on August 23, 2023, 11:46:20 am
Quote from: John U.K. on August 23, 2023, 11:05:08 am
EDIT:
As far as I can see, re-reading the panel decision, camera enforcement by TfL IS permissible on Double and single red lines, but see what the experts here say. BUT you must find out the deadline for reps. I also note that the upright sign governing the SRL has been twisted away from sight since at least 2021.


Mr Milton trying it on again.... words fail me.
Have a read of this
Panel decision:

Commercial Plant Services Ltd and others v Transport for London
Date:
25 May 2023
Case no:
2230060716 + Others
Subject:
CCTV

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf

That said, the letter with the DVD says nothing about the process - it has been on hold, presumably now no longer so.
Check the status online and/or ring TfL to ask when is the deadline for paying discount/making reps (not that you should pay at this stage).

Thanks for your response, you bring up a valid point that they should provide next step guidelines and a deadline for paying\ challenging which they have not done so ! I have logged onto the website with my PCN number to see deadline details when i go to the "challenge a PCN" tab, again no deadline information there. Will wait to see if there are any other comments from the board.
Title: Re: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: John U.K. on August 23, 2023, 11:05:08 am
EDIT:
As far as I can see, re-reading the panel decision, camera enforcement by TfL IS permissible on Double and single red lines, but see what the experts here say. BUT you must find out the deadline for reps. I also note that the upright sign governing the SRL has been twisted away from sight since at least 2021.


Mr Milton trying it on again.... words fail me.
Have a read of this
Panel decision:

Commercial Plant Services Ltd and others v Transport for London
Date:
25 May 2023
Case no:
2230060716 + Others
Subject:
CCTV

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf

That said, the letter with the DVD says nothing about the process - it has been on hold, presumably now no longer so.
Check the status online and/or ring TfL to ask when is the deadline for paying discount/making reps (not that you should pay at this stage).
Title: TFL 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clear way), North Kerb Walford Road N16
Post by: DolbyAtmos on August 23, 2023, 10:22:47 am
PCN number GX07059631

Hello, I managed to get caught by a TFL device as i went to pick up my pre-ordered pizza from the nearby shop, was parked on the single red line for less than 3-4 mins.
Is there any discrepancy on the paperwork TFL sent to me or on the attached DVD video clip they sent to me 3 months after my initial request ?

I have also attached a google location link.
Hoping the experts on this forum can find any inconsistencies.

TFL PCN Letter (https://imgur.com/a/hBum6n9)

Google Maps Link (https://goo.gl/maps/uvuZE4QwFrrCuScx7)

TFL CCTV Footage (https://vimeo.com/855960768)

Letter with TFL DVD Footage (https://imgur.com/a/I58rBzZ)

They don't have footage of the part where i exit the car, the only footage you can see is of me returning to the car after 1 min of the CCTV locked on my car.