Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Savas on December 20, 2024, 05:32:19 pm
-
PM received. Since when does an EN state when it is served? Not its date?
-
PCN and VRM details please: a must if you wish for our help.
This is an outrageous demand for money:
https://i.postimg.cc/NfP1gxj4/screenshot-2025-02-23-092924.png
Also, you have won more opportunity to make a formal representation.
-
The golden rule: the council have to prove their case. Please do not do it for them.
-
Granted, my interpretation of solid white lines may be a little "extreme" - let's forget about that one.
With regard to the signage, the pic shows the Start of Bus Lane sign & we've already established the End of Bus Lane one exists, but here it is again. As it's one continuous Bus Lane with no breaks for side roads etc there is no need for extra signage along the Lane, particularly as it's only 130m long.
Start: https://ibb.co/3SSWZVq (with usage conditions)
End: https://ibb.co/X78sjgT
(Edited as I was having trouble niserting the pics)
I appreciate the viewpoint and I guess it's vital that there's a bit of a different interpretation in this forums to ensure people stay level headed, I guess, but I think it's best to always side with whatever is logical and if it's a fair on the driver.
For example, the first and only sign which indicates the restrictions is right next to the traffic lights, when I think it should be a further past the lights and closer to the start of the bus lane. When turning from Webber Row, you basically have a split second to see the sign and if you've ever drive around in a city you know there's hazards and things that drivers easily can miss due to distractions and the lack of a second sign is not fair, especially if you missed the first one, in my opinion.
-
Granted, my interpretation of solid white lines may be a little "extreme" - let's forget about that one.
With regard to the signage, the pic shows the Start of Bus Lane sign & we've already established the End of Bus Lane one exists, but here it is again. As it's one continuous Bus Lane with no breaks for side roads etc there is no need for extra signage along the Lane, particularly as it's only 130m long.
Start: https://ibb.co/3SSWZVq (with usage conditions)
End: https://ibb.co/X78sjgT
(Edited as I was having trouble niserting the pics)
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Well, my advice is given in good faith and as a result of experience.
-
Take a look at your Highway Code - you're not (in ordinary circumstances) permitted to cross a solid white line. Bus Lane is active 7-7 & so is the solid white line.
Closest I found:
Rule 129: Double white lines where the line nearer to you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
Maybe you can just be more specific and get to the point on what you're referring to "potentially transgressed further" regarding the solid white lines. Why are you drip feeding what you're getting at.. And is this one of those, you're charged with murder and also attempted murder?
Signage is there on GSV from July 2024
So where's the other signage as you mention "& end of that stretch"? It's a long stretch and if you're just referring to the signage for "end of bus lane" it doesn't state the usage conditions.
-
Signage is there on GSV from July 2024
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Take a look at your Highway Code - you're not (in ordinary circumstances) permitted to cross a solid white line. Bus Lane is active 7-7 & so is the solid white line.
It is up to the council to prove the signage - not a Google link. 8)
-
Also you've potentially transgressed further by crossing a solid white line.
What do you mean?
Take a look at your Highway Code - you're not (in ordinary circumstances) permitted to cross a solid white line. Bus Lane is active 7-7 & so is the solid white line.
-
@Savas
Dear Southwark
1. Your evidence does not show any signage allegedly passed i.e. 958 warning sign and/or 959B bus lane sign.
2. There was inclement weather in any event.
3. The ground stated re there being no contravention is clearly wrong in terms of the contents contained in the brackets - "the details on this PCN are incorrect" - which renders the PCN invalid. This is also rather confusing.
The correct ground is provided at 4(b) of Schedule 1 of the 1996 Act:
that there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4;
Please cancel the PCN in light of the above.
-
The bus lane signage at the beginning & end of that stretch look fine & the legend "BUS LANE" is painted on the road twice, so I don't see any technicality to get out of it.
Also you've potentially transgressed further by crossing a solid white line.
Let's be honest here - it wasn't about you "keeping the traffic flowing", it was impatience on your behalf. I'm all for challenging the system and the jumped-up CEOs that think they're so important, but for this one I'd say "Just take it on the chin and don't do it again".
It wasn't "impatience" as you put. I have a habit of making sure I am in the correct lane in advance and I live local, in fact many years and use the road regularly yet never went on the bus lane, seeing the lane empty where the end of bus lane sign is I try to use bus lanes accordingly. I saw a queue of cars and the left lane empty apart from one car next to the light and as I pre-emptively move onto the left when I see the sign I did so a bit too early on this occasion.
I hate to see bureaucracy beat common sense. If they all want to turn right or go straight, and I want to go left, I find it really hard to just "take it on the chin" for rules that put you in line, ironically. The lights change fast and they all tend to go towards Elephant & Castle so as I am going left it's very silly to get stuck in the queue and not just move over the bus lane. It's a similar situation to move around a vehicle blocking the single lane road. People shouldn't get tickets for just having common sense.
Also you've potentially transgressed further by crossing a solid white line.
What do you mean?
I would go with the signage and light. Also, say there is no signage shown in the video allegedly passed. And put them to strict proof the camera is approved.
Sorry, no issues with the PCN.
The last ground contains in brackets irrelevant and confusing information.
Re send citing this as well, plus no signage allegedly passed, plus proof of camera certification.
Not sure what you're mean to be honest. Which ground do you mean?
EDIT: Oh and I also recieved this email this morning, the attachment is exactly the above letter:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dhKxfJvM/screenshot-2025-01-23-193650-dedacted.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/13g1fzjz/screenshot-2025-01-23-193650-dedacted.png)
-
I would go with the signage and light. Also, say there is no signage shown in the video allegedly passed. And put them to strict proof the camera is approved.
Sorry, no issues with the PCN.
The last ground contains in brackets irrelevant and confusing information.
Resend citing this as well, plus no signage allegedly passed, plus proof of camera certification.
-
The bus lane signage at the beginning & end of that stretch look fine & the legend "BUS LANE" is painted on the road twice, so I don't see any technicality to get out of it.
Also you've potentially transgressed further by crossing a solid white line.
Let's be honest here - it wasn't about you "keeping the traffic flowing", it was impatience on your behalf. I'm all for challenging the system and the jumped-up CEOs that think they're so important, but for this one I'd say "Just take it on the chin and don't do it again".
-
So this came through the post. The letter is dated 10/01/2025, however I received this on the 20th.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ctM5XzkN/screenshot-2025-01-22-190425-dedacted.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/rsvXFXSz/screenshot-2025-01-22-190425-dedacted.png)
I am pretty sure I wrote my challenge as I remember proof reading it then sending it through. I luckily have a copy. Shall I just send it via the online page again?
When I made the challenge, I received an email with an attachment, after checking that also seems blank I guess maybe it is indeed a bug in their system.
-
I would go with the signage and light. Also, say there is no signage shown in the video allegedly passed. And put them to strict proof the camera is approved.
Sorry, no issues with the PCN.
-
Whatever TfL may say in business rules is surely irrelevant, because this is a Southwark PCN. Nowadays all London councils, (and TfL for that matter), are extremely greedy for money, so ruthlessly game the system to make sure it rolls in. So if you want to fight your case, the only place you will get a reasonably fair hearing is London Tribunals, with the full PCN penalty in play.
I measured your distance in the bus lane by matching the photo of your car entering it with the bus stop markings on a satellite view in GSV and then to the end of the bus lane. It came to just under 40 metres.
You are probably better with Hippocrates who has a strong 'technical' appeal argument.
-
Well, you need to get that impression out of your head pronto, because there is no such allowance, other than claiming "de minimis" at the adjudicators, who may well not agree with you. In fact some adjudicator don't recognise "de minimis" at all.
For so many years I've been assuming there's a little leeway.. See here, specifically 1.15:
Eops Schedule 2 (SoR) Appendix 9 TfL Business Rules
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-appendix9-tfl-business-rules.pdf
"A representation is made on the basis that the driver had to temporarily drive in a bus lane, in order that they could turn left to access a side road or driveway."
"if distance within the Bus Lane is less than 20 metres, accept."
A look at GSV compared to the photos shows you were in the bus lane for about 40 metres, way over any possible "de minimis" argument, sorry to have to say it. So the contravention is made out, I'm afraid.
Thanks for your honesty, although wouldn't say 40 metres, if I remember correctly about 4 cars. Getting a fine because all the vehicles in front of you want to go ahead and you want to turn left thus keep the traffic flowing.. This is going to make me question the next time I go into a bus lane only to move around a vehicle when they're turning into a side road. I've seen people do this and it's quite woeful.
However, this may not be game over, because experts on here have found many "technical" appeal arguments based on poor management by the council, (or TfL), of the enforcement process, so wait a bit for more contributions.
Anyway I can confirm or check if this is the case? Also would the lack of a blue sign near the middle be a case to go on as it is a bit long, because mistakenly as it was dark part of me at the time thought it was way passed the usual time a bus lane is operational.
I also turned from Webber Row (opposite side) so many things to look for when turning and that sign I did not see. I've been at this road before and wondered why there wasn't a sign.
See - Case 5 – Inadequate signage
Adjudicators decisions and case studies for a bus lane PCN
https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/bus-lanes/adjudicators-decisions-and-case-studies-bus-lanes/
The post here (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4994996,-0.1067666,3a,35.5y,108.89h,89.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAj59pEQ9oRUdjT_-2KLbyg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8560913901599605%26panoid%3DAj59pEQ9oRUdjT_-2KLbyg%26yaw%3D108.89474430632131!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) seems like a sign existed before.
-
Back later. Hi Southwark guys if you are watching or got nothing better to do. 8)
-
I was under the impression you can enter bus lanes as long as it's one or two car lengths from the end of bus lane sign to get into the correct lane.
Well, you need to get that impression out of your head pronto, because there is no such allowance, other than claiming "de minimis" at the adjudicators, who may well not agree with you. In fact some adjudicator don't recognise "de minimis" at all.
A look at GSV compared to the photos shows you were in the bus lane for about 40 metres, way over any possible "de minimis" argument, sorry to have to say it. So the contravention is made out, I'm afraid.
However, this may not be game over, because experts on here have found many "technical" appeal arguments based on poor management by the council, (or TfL), of the enforcement process, so wait a bit for more contributions.
-
Greetings
I would like to challenge this, any advice would be appreciated before I formulate an informal challenge.
Details:
I was waiting at the traffic lights and there was a bit of traffic in front, as I was turning left the left lane was clear where the sign says "end of bus lane" so instead of waiting for the light to go green then switching to the lane last minute I decided to switch lane and wait just before the next vehicle.
I've checked Google maps (link below) and can't actually see any times signs for when this bus lane is not allowed to be used and I was under the impression you can enter bus lanes as long as it's one or two car lengths from the end of bus lane sign to get into the correct lane. I can see I pushed it a bit, however on this road everyone is going right of the roundabout ahead so I was not pushing in, hence why none of them wanted to join the left lane and hence queue had formed.
It seems quite harsh to get a £130/£65 ticket just because I wanted to join the correct lane and moved to the end of the bus lane..
282 Waterloo Rd - Google Maps
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4991398,-0.1063108,3a,75y,94.47h,76.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D13.500123940541854%26panoid%3DT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw%26yaw%3D94.47003024310214!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4991398,-0.1063108,3a,75y,94.47h,76.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D13.500123940541854%26panoid%3DT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw%26yaw%3D94.47003024310214!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
(https://i.postimg.cc/235kFVMT/screenshot-2024-12-20-170457-dedacted.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/9XdD29p3/screenshot-2024-12-20-170457-dedacted.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/q6gpk5yW/screenshot-2024-12-20-170511-dedacted.png) (https://i.postimg.cc/1XrXKxtR/screenshot-2024-12-20-170511-dedacted.png)
Their images
1.jpg (720×576)
https://i.postimg.cc/zBXq1LXN/1.jpg
2.jpg (720×576)
https://i.postimg.cc/pdBP7Qvk/2.jpg
3.jpg (720×576)
https://i.postimg.cc/MHnxvhQr/3.jpg
4.jpg (720×576)
https://i.postimg.cc/90s2TJPX/4.jpg