Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Shurikenger on August 23, 2023, 06:07:41 am
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I trusted you that you knew what you were talking about, but now it looks like I'm going to loose because I followed your advice. So thanks a bunch for that!
I did tell you on Friday to request a hearing? Throwing your toys out of the pram is not going to help.
No, there was never that option on the website.
Yes there was, it's what the "select your decision option" button was for (although I have to admit that the TPT website doesn't show everything if you're trying to do this on your phone, but really you should use a computer for something like this).
As DancingDad says, just ring the TPT in the morning (0800 160 1999) and say you would like a hearing. A hearing is a statutory right and the tribunal is normally quite accommodating.
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Phone TPT in the morning.
Explain that you seem to have done something silly and managed to register for a hearing on papers when you wanted a live hearing.
B polite and a little confused does no harm.
They are usually accommodating.
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Have you requested a hearing? You might as well do it now if you haven't already, or you risk the case going into the postal decision list. Heagins are being listed for the first & second weeks of October at the moment, so you have a bit of time.
No, there was never that option on the website.
Now it says I've requested them to decide without a hearing, which I didn't.
I was going on you saying I would likely have until tomorrow, but it looks like because I didn't reply by last Wednesday they've gone ahead and automatically done it.
I trusted you that you knew what you were talking about, but now it looks like I'm going to loose because I followed your advice. So thanks a bunch for that!
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I thnk I've solved the mystery of why that turn.
Google maps has just now directed me to make the turn onto Lister Street.
It's not a route I would choose nor expected but seems to be cutting a common bottleneck and slow traffic in the tunnels.....the route it showed last night.
Even without that turn, based on my playing about, you would have carried straight on to a major island, turned left there to go towards city and entered the zone then.
To avoid the zone you would have had to have carried on straight at the major island.
Google maps does indeed seem to take you over to Spring Hill area.
I cannot find any option in google maps to avoid CAZs.... I can avoid tolls, such as London's congestion charge.
This may seem irrelevant but is actually helpful, as are the three pictures and videos showing the approaches to the turn you made. I assume the videos are included to cover the options that you would have had and to show not only the entry signs but the pre warning, blue signs.
I think Birmingham have put all three in to show the approach signs (blue) and the zone entry signs.
But seem to be a little disingenuous with the information provided.
Only one of the three warning signs shown has distance information, the two on the main road more or less saying the CAZ is to the Left/Right...not if you turn left/right you will be entering the zone.
Which the distance on the one sign does imply.
The main road is a busy road BTW, not beyond the realms for the blue signs to be blocked by a lorry or bus.
Now compare Video 1 to the other two and the photos of the junction entry sign.
You approached as per Video 1 (car 1). The video shows a brief glimpse of the side of the sign and it is not clear what the sign says or is. The video stops before the lights change and the car makes the turn, we have no chance to see how clear the sign is.
Vid 2 and 3 show the progress across the lights and that the entry sign is very clear.
The photos of the entry sign are from straight ahead, ie from the viewpoint of Vid 2 and 3, there is no photo of the sign from the viewpoint of Vid 1.
Nor does google streetview show this sign clearly as you approach or static at lights, even with the ability to scan.
The sign does become clear as you make the turn but really too late and no guarantee that a driver will see it, concentrating on the turn and whether the road is clear.
I will point to the CPZ signs on Lister Street..... they are some 50 yards from the junction and on both sides of the carriageway, a far more visible position.
Once in the zone, there are no repeater zones so realistically, if you miss that sign, you have no way of knowing that you have inadvertently entered the zone.
Putting it all together there are the bones of a defence, how an adjudicator would view it is another matter.
A stranger to the city with no knowledge of the CAZ
Signs not in Highway Code or generally known outside of CAZs
Pre warning signs not seen, possibly due to a large vehicle.
Google maps choosing to direct you to a turn in the only direction where the zone entry is not clearly visible
Birmingham seemingly aware of this lack of clarity as this direction is the only one where their car footage or photos do not show the sign. Their car footage (car 1) ending before the turn in contrast to Car 2 and 3.
That's all very helpful, thanks. Sadly it looks like it's too late.
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Have you requested a hearing? You might as well do it now if you haven't already, or you risk the case going into the postal decision list. Hearings are being listed for the first & second weeks of October at the moment, so you have a bit of time.
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I thnk I've solved the mystery of why that turn.
Google maps has just now directed me to make the turn onto Lister Street.
It's not a route I would choose nor expected but seems to be cutting a common bottleneck and slow traffic in the tunnels.....the route it showed last night.
Even without that turn, based on my playing about, you would have carried straight on to a major island, turned left there to go towards city and entered the zone then.
To avoid the zone you would have had to have carried on straight at the major island.
Google maps does indeed seem to take you over to Spring Hill area.
I cannot find any option in google maps to avoid CAZs.... I can avoid tolls, such as London's congestion charge.
This may seem irrelevant but is actually helpful, as are the three pictures and videos showing the approaches to the turn you made. I assume the videos are included to cover the options that you would have had and to show not only the entry signs but the pre warning, blue signs.
I think Birmingham have put all three in to show the approach signs (blue) and the zone entry signs.
But seem to be a little disingenuous with the information provided.
Only one of the three warning signs shown has distance information, the two on the main road more or less saying the CAZ is to the Left/Right...not if you turn left/right you will be entering the zone.
Which the distance on the one sign does imply.
The main road is a busy road BTW, not beyond the realms for the blue signs to be blocked by a lorry or bus.
Now compare Video 1 to the other two and the photos of the junction entry sign.
You approached as per Video 1 (car 1). The video shows a brief glimpse of the side of the sign and it is not clear what the sign says or is. The video stops before the lights change and the car makes the turn, we have no chance to see how clear the sign is.
Vid 2 and 3 show the progress across the lights and that the entry sign is very clear.
The photos of the entry sign are from straight ahead, ie from the viewpoint of Vid 2 and 3, there is no photo of the sign from the viewpoint of Vid 1.
Nor does google streetview show this sign clearly as you approach or static at lights, even with the ability to scan.
The sign does become clear as you make the turn but really too late and no guarantee that a driver will see it, concentrating on the turn and whether the road is clear.
I will point to the CPZ signs on Lister Street..... they are some 50 yards from the junction and on both sides of the carriageway, a far more visible position.
Once in the zone, there are no repeater zones so realistically, if you miss that sign, you have no way of knowing that you have inadvertently entered the zone.
Putting it all together there are the bones of a defence, how an adjudicator would view it is another matter.
A stranger to the city with no knowledge of the CAZ
Signs not in Highway Code or generally known outside of CAZs
Pre warning signs not seen, possibly due to a large vehicle.
Google maps choosing to direct you to a turn in the only direction where the zone entry is not clearly visible
Birmingham seemingly aware of this lack of clarity as this direction is the only one where their car footage or photos do not show the sign. Their car footage (car 1) ending before the turn in contrast to Car 2 and 3.
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You need to change the sharing settings to public.
I'd already done it, but didn't realise I had to do it for each new folder! 🤦 I never use it, so it's all new to me. Should work now.
It does....will be reading through later tonight.
Can we see the cover sheet (contents) as well please.
Also confirm that a copy of the PCN and NOR are in there?
What's in Google drive is all that was in it. There was no cover sheet.
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You need to change the sharing settings to public.
I'd already done it, but didn't realise I had to do it for each new folder! 🤦 I never use it, so it's all new to me. Should work now.
It does....will be reading through later tonight.
Can we see the cover sheet (contents) as well please.
Also confirm that a copy of the PCN and NOR are in there?
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You need to change the sharing settings to public.
I'd already done it, but didn't realise I had to do it for each new folder! 🤦 I never use it, so it's all new to me. Should work now.
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You need to change the sharing settings to public.
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Anyway, I've uploaded to Google Drive. I think I've done it correctly!
Where's this google drive link?
Honestly, you want to upload everything the council has provided.
I edited my post to say it'd be posted at a later time as I was having issues with it. It's there now.
Everything I downloaded from the evidence pack is included, save for the original PCN which is identical and the three videos already posted as they weren't in the pack. There was nothing more in the pack.
Cheers!
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Anyway, I've uploaded to Google Drive. I think I've done it correctly!
Where's this google drive link?
Honestly, you want to upload everything the council has provided.
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OK, I've been through the evidence pack they provided, which honesty isn't helping me much.
They've provided some maps showing where I entered the zone. Like I said, I remember going left, so this must be it. They've shown the route in the zone in red. It looks like I was only in it for a few meters. Which is something I suggested in my first post.
It then looks like they're showing me going into the same road twice more, which they also seem to alude to in the three videos they sent. I can 100% guarantee that did not happen! And I know it didn't because if it had I would have had a meltdown and believe me those I remember!
I don't know why this is all over the place. I can't work it out and I've been trying for over an hour now. I'm sure it's simple for anyone living in Birmingham, but I can't make head nor tail out of it. I've been on Google maps, but I'm none the wiser. I can see now why most people cough up, it's needlessly complicated!
Anyway, I've uploaded to Google Drive. I think I've done it correctly!
I've not reuploaded anything I've already posted, just the new bits.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1cwOLGF_FMTSqrB0EOFzJn7gAuUHnGeuz
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Looking at your dashcam footage..... where in the world was googlemaps trying to take you?
Cos you seem to have been going round in circles.
All the clips are at the same junction?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4889217,-1.8853052,3a,75y,335.68h,71.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPVZ7uBfYTiYu1lIYKdsgJg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
this is the location and direction at clip one...the zone entry sign just visible to the right of the lights and possibly able to argue that it was not clear for a motorist making that turn.
Clip two is same junction but crossing from the right
Clip three.... turning from opposite direction.
Looking back at where the enforcement camera located you. I cannot see any reason for this circling, had you carried straight on and straight over Dartmouth Circus you would have not entered zone and got over to the west side that you seemed to be aiming for.
Which is easy for ma to know being a native of Birmingham but likely not so obvious for a visitor.
Going back to your original post, you were aiming for a hotel on the Hagley Road.
Which one pls.
I should be able to work out obvious route if nothing else and may be able to come up with what Google was up to.
I am not a fan of "following the satnav" as a defence cos it isn't one, drivers are still expected to be aware of signs.
But a combination of stressed by an errant satnav in a strange city, poorly located sign (dashcam footage Car 1) and signs not common or shown in Highway Code may be enough for a sympathetic adjudicator.
Thanks for the reply.
That's not my dash cam footage, I don't own one! ;D I don't know whose it is, I assumed it was Birmingham's, that they sent some poor sod out to drive around that part of the city in an effort to show where I went. I don't know, but it's not mine.
Like I said previously, I do pay attention to road signs, I've been driving for years before sat navs were a thing! I don't like using them for the most part, but because of my disabilities I've been using Google to help get me where I'm going with fewer incidents of getting lost/ending up somewhere I don't want to be, thus leading to fewer meltdowns. I don't know why it sent me down that left hand turn but it did. The right hand one though I have no recollection of.
The hotel was the Strathallan.
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The real deadline isn't the 13th, if you had more than one case on your foam account you'd be able to see the real date (not on a phone, but on a computer) but it's usually at least 3 days later and the TPT is closed at the weekend, so you likely have until 18th to request a hearing.
Anyway, I suggest you download the whole evidence pack and put it somewhere we can access it. You'll want to either redact your personal details, or just send the link via private message to those who have contributed to this thread so far.
Thanks, will get on to this shortly.
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Looking at your dashcam footage..... where in the world was googlemaps trying to take you?
Cos you seem to have been going round in circles.
All the clips are at the same junction?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4889217,-1.8853052,3a,75y,335.68h,71.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPVZ7uBfYTiYu1lIYKdsgJg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
this is the location and direction at clip one...the zone entry sign just visible to the right of the lights and possibly able to argue that it was not clear for a motorist making that turn.
Clip two is same junction but crossing from the right
Clip three.... turning from opposite direction.
Looking back at where the enforcement camera located you. I cannot see any reason for this circling, had you carried straight on and straight over Dartmouth Circus you would have not entered zone and got over to the west side that you seemed to be aiming for.
Which is easy for ma to know being a native of Birmingham but likely not so obvious for a visitor.
Going back to your original post, you were aiming for a hotel on the Hagley Road.
Which one pls.
I should be able to work out obvious route if nothing else and may be able to come up with what Google was up to.
I am not a fan of "following the satnav" as a defence cos it isn't one, drivers are still expected to be aware of signs.
But a combination of stressed by an errant satnav in a strange city, poorly located sign (dashcam footage Car 1) and signs not common or shown in Highway Code may be enough for a sympathetic adjudicator.
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The real deadline isn't the 13th, if you had more than one case on your foam account you'd be able to see the real date (not on a phone, but on a computer) but it's usually at least 3 days later and the TPT is closed at the weekend, so you likely have until 18th to request a hearing.
Anyway, I suggest you download the whole evidence pack and put it somewhere we can access it. You'll want to either redact your personal details, or just send the link via private message to those who have contributed to this thread so far.
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Hi again
Right, I have... Something back from the tribunal. They don't make this easy to follow do they?!
I've attached screen grabs of what's been provided. I don't know which of these you would need to see, so please let me know and I can upload/link.
There are three that are just videos of a car driving around, presumably the route I took. I'll link those here as they seem the most pertinent.
I am a bit late with this. I thought I'd get a letter, but it was an email that came on Tuesday that I've only just seen. (Tuesday was the 3rd anniversary of my Dad's death, I do nothing on that day for obvious reasons.)
Here's the list of items they provided:
https://ibb.co/FW3X9Rr
https://ibb.co/WsMJxkV
https://ibb.co/Q9ytfYD
Car 1: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/Birmingham/Lister-St-Inbound-via-Dartmouth-Middleway-anticlockwise.mp4
Yes, I can see the blue sign now, but have no recollection of it at the time. I do think Google took me down that road though. There was so much road funature it was really confusing.
Car 2: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/Birmingham/Lister-St-approach-2.mp4
Car 3: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/Core%20Documents/Birmingham/Lister-St-approach-3.mp4
This seems to have jumped from one place to somewhere else. I don't recognise that turn at all.
I don't know if all of those roadworks were there at the time. If they were then I'd have definitely been focusing on those and not random blue signs!
Anyway, I'm not sure what I have to do with all of this. It has boxes for comments but other than that I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with it now. It's really not set up for ND people like me!
Cheers!
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Appeal online, not by post. Don't give any detailed grounds, just say "I rely on my formal representations", for CAZ cases the portal asks you 3 supplemental questions about whether your vehicle is complaint, whether you drove in the zone and so on. Those questions are all prejudicial and should not be asked, so I'd recommend you answer "I don't know" to all three.
When the council provides its evidence pack, put it on here for us to review.
The tribunal website will encourage you to opt for a decision on the papers, and will tell you that a hearing is not required in most cases. That's a complete pile of BS, as illustrated by this case (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149680), you should therefore request a video hearing.
If, when the evidence pack comes through, any arguable grounds emerge, I might be able to act as your representative at the hearing. Your best bet is probably going to be on the issue of signage.
Thank you so much! I would have over thought those to the point of obsession, so now I don't need to!
Will do it now and post back when I have more news.
Thanks again!
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Appeal online, not by post. Don't give any detailed grounds, just say "I rely on my formal representations", for CAZ cases the portal asks you 3 supplemental questions about whether your vehicle is complaint, whether you drove in the zone and so on. Those questions are all prejudicial and should not be asked, so I'd recommend you answer "I don't know" to all three.
When the council provides its evidence pack, put it on here for us to review.
The tribunal website will encourage you to opt for a decision on the papers, and will tell you that a hearing is not required in most cases. That's a complete pile of BS, as illustrated by this case (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149680), you should therefore request a video hearing.
If, when the evidence pack comes through, any arguable grounds emerge, I might be able to act as your representative at the hearing. Your best bet is probably going to be on the issue of signage.
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Basically you have nothing to lose. At least they will have to work for your money.
In preparing your representations it may be worth searching PPP for those few that have been successful based on first time visitor, not local etc and adapting one to your particular circumstances.
+1
If the council won't reoffer the discount despite your reasonable reps, it is a no-brainer to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, as the penalty remains the same.
When we refer to the "double-or-quits" gamble, is refers to the fact that the discount option, available for a restricted time after service of the PCN, is lost if the matter is taken to adjudication, where the full PCN penalty is payable if the case is lost. Birmingham have decided not to reoffer the discount when refusing all representations whether submitted inside the discount period of not. They therefore have made a rod for their own back because if one is asked to pay the full amount, why not wait until an adjudicator tells you to.
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Basically you have nothing to lose. At least they will have to work for your money.
In preparing your representations it may be worth searching PPP for those few that have been successful based on first time visitor, not local etc and adapting one to your particular circumstances.
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I'm not sure what you mean by adjudication costs doubling?
If you lose at adjudication you have to pay the full, rather than the discounted, penalty. BUt you are already liable for the full penalty, as Birmingham CAZ don't re-offer the discount when they reject reps.
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YOu didn't know what the signs meant, but looked at the Highway Code after getting the PCN to find there is nothing at all about these signs in the HC. Unfortunately in cases like this you have to take the double-or-quits gamble and take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
You need to emphasise that you rarely visit B'ham and knew nothing about the CAZ, and whilst you saw the signs did not know what they meant, and checking the HC was unable to find out
I'm afraid many millions of pounds are being generated by these CAZs and as adjudication costs double, most people just quietly cough up.
Yes, I am taking it to tribunal, that's why I was asking for help.
I've never driven in the city before. I go to the NEC three or four times a year and that's all.
I'm not sure what you mean by adjudication costs doubling? There was nothing to say I have to pay for the tribunal in the letter, nor on PPP where I first posted this.
Thanks for the reply though.
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All you really have is a plea for discretion.
The plain fact is that you are supposed to know what the clouds mean. And know that it means charges.
In general there is plenty of signage.
As to how you are meant to know ....
I don't know. There are loads of radio ads when zones start up. And press coverage. But it's not a deal of help to many. I doubt it got much mention in your local press or radio.
I don't think the highway code even mentions clean air zones at all. It should.
The situation is not helped by the fact that there are differing CAZ standards charging different vehicle classes.
Not a lot of help I know. The tribunal can rule on adequacy of signage (unlikely to win, especially since you seem to agree you saw the signage just didn't understand it). They can't apply mitigation.
Birmingham could have accepted mitigation, but they haven't (they have sometimes, but rarely).
Obviously you can try the tribunal, there is a chance Birmingham may fail to contest. There is a theoretical risk of costs if your appeal is entirely unreasonable.
I appreciate the reply, thanks.
I did not say I saw any signs, I said I did not see them. I only knew about them after the letter arrived and I looked it up on Google. I have no recollection of them on the day.
I also said I suffer from fibromyalgia, which means I have to focus on the important stuff like directions and speed limits along with coping with several lanes of traffic. It's very taxing!
Again, I don't live in, or around, Birmingham. I don't get Birmingham papers or radio stations. We get Anglia news on the TV. Unless there was something on there one day (unlikely) then I wouldn't know.
There were no banners on bridges or any other info telling people on their way into the city that this exists either. Small blue signs with random clouds on is, imo, not proper signage.
If that's all I can send to tribunal then that'll have to be it I guess. I'm not giving into this, I won't be made to feel I did something wrong!
Cheers.
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YOu didn't know what the signs meant, but looked at the Highway Code after getting the PCN to find there is nothing at all about these signs in the HC. Unfortunately in cases like this you have to take the double-or-quits gamble and take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.
You need to emphasise that you rarely visit B'ham and knew nothing about the CAZ, and whilst you saw the signs did not know what they meant, and checking the HC was unable to find out
I'm afraid many millions of pounds are being generated by these CAZs and as adjudication costs double, most people just quietly cough up.
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All you really have is a plea for discretion.
The plain fact is that you are supposed to know what the clouds mean. And know that it means charges.
In general there is plenty of signage.
As to how you are meant to know ....
I don't know. There are loads of radio ads when zones start up. And press coverage. But it's not a deal of help to many. I doubt it got much mention in your local press or radio.
I don't think the highway code even mentions clean air zones at all. It should.
The situation is not helped by the fact that there are differing CAZ standards charging different vehicle classes.
Not a lot of help I know. The tribunal can rule on adequacy of signage (unlikely to win, especially since you seem to agree you saw the signage just didn't understand it). They can't apply mitigation.
Birmingham could have accepted mitigation, but they haven't (they have sometimes, but rarely).
Obviously you can try the tribunal, there is a chance Birmingham may fail to contest. There is a theoretical risk of costs if your appeal is entirely unreasonable.
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No-one can help? Do you not deal with Birmingham? Lots of replies to other cases in London.
If you can't help me here then could someone at least point me to a forum that can? I've only a couple of weeks left to take to tribunal.
Cheers.
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Could really use some help if anyone can. 🙂
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Hi all,
I started this over at PPP but was advised to post here. I'm just going to copy/paste my post from there. If there's anything I've missed or more info required please let me know!
First post:
I'm hoping to get some help with what I should put in representations to Birmingham City Council in regard to a PCN from them saying I was using my car in a Clean Air Zone. They say the "offence" took place at Summer Hill Road at Spring Hill (outbound) which is a road leading up to a roundabout.
Some background:
I went to Birmingham for a one day convention. The location was much further into the city than I'd expected. I've only ever been to the NEC before, never further into Birmingham. I don't usually use GPS/SATNAV as my car doesn't have one, so on this occasion I decided to use Google Maps to get me to the event.
The hotel the event was taking place in is on Hagley Road. I went into Birmingham from the east via the A47.
I spent a good couple of hours yesterday trying to work out where I could have entered the CAZ. Again, I've never been into Birmingham before so I had no Earthly idea where this was! I finally found it on Google Maps, and it's right over to the west side of the city.
This leaves two possibilities:
1: Google sent me straight through the middle of the city, thus entering on the east side and driving through.
2: I somehow entered the zone on the west side, where the photo suggests.
I tried to retrace the route and I don't think I drove through the city, I think I went around it. I remember some kind of "Midway" on signs. I do recall either taking a wrong turn, or Google sending me down a side road, I can't remember exactly, so I think what happened was I went down a street that has a CAZ and then got back onto the main road and carried on to my destination. (I know this sounds a bit wishy washy but I have Fibromyalgia and brain fog is a large part of my life!)
As a visitor to Birmingham I had no idea a CAZ was in operation, I didn't even know it existed until I got this PCN a couple of days ago! It certainly wasn't on Google Maps. I live in rural Lincolnshire, we don't have anything like that here. It's only by looking at Google Street View I now know what the signs look like! I don't remember seeing any, but when you're driving around a city you've never been to before at half nine on a Saturday morning, using a SATNAV you're not used to I can see how I could have missed it.
So I was basically going to write the above and see if that gets it cancelled. What do you think my chances are?
PCN:
https://ibb.co/ynZRxTx
https://ibb.co/PZyNJBX
https://ibb.co/cJqSSJN
https://ibb.co/LnD2mq2
Thanks in advance!
Shurikenger.
Second post after rejection:
Well, my appeal was rejected. Apparently I'm supposed to psychically know what the little cloud symbols are, despite never driving in Birmingham or any other city with a CAZ before! 🙄
Obviously I'm going to take it to tribunal. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a first time visitor to know what these symbols are! It's all good and well saying I should know, but how am I supposed to?
Regardless, just posting to see if there's anything I should say to help my case other than what I already wrote in the appeal.
Rejection letter:
https://ibb.co/M86txm4
https://ibb.co/fvhWhdp
https://ibb.co/Yknym1B
https://ibb.co/cgzD6qH
Cheers.
Supplemental:
I have checked the Highway Code and these cloud symbols aren't in it, and we don't have any CAZ's in Lincolnshire, so I maintain that there's no way I could reasonably know what they meant. When driving in a place I've never been before I only take notice of road furniture that is in the Highway Code or ones that are important, like diversions and such. I don't even remember seeing one of these cloud signs!
Anything specific I should add to the appeal/tribunal?
Cheers!
Shurikenger.