Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: ixo on December 19, 2024, 01:02:18 pm

Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: DWMB2 on March 11, 2025, 02:56:23 pm
It means that after all their nonsense and bluster, they've backed out before they had to pay the POPLA fee, meaning you win. Good result, and thanks for the update.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: b789 on March 11, 2025, 02:19:53 pm
Yup... that's a win.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on March 11, 2025, 11:49:00 am
Just had response from POPLA. Had to read it a few times to be sure but looks like a success.

"The operator has contacted us and told us that they have withdrawn your appeal.

If you have already paid your parking charge, this is the reason your appeal will have been withdrawn. Unfortunately, you cannot pay your parking charge and appeal, which means that POPLA’s involvement in your appeal has ended. You will not be able to request a refund of the amount paid in order to resubmit your appeal to us.

If you have not paid your parking charge, the operator has reviewed your appeal and chosen to cancel the parking charge. As the operator has withdrawn your appeal, POPLA’s involvement has now ended and you do not need to take any further action.

Kind regards

POPLA Team"


Massive thanks to all who helped me out with this. Much appreciated 👍

Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: DWMB2 on March 04, 2025, 11:02:15 pm
Even amongst parking companies, Britannia do have a unique proclivity for BS.

My money is on them withdrawing to avoid paying the POPLA fee, but then again, they might be stupid enough not to.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: b789 on March 04, 2025, 10:51:01 pm
Just respond with... "Are you rally that effing stupid?" Pass this to a responsible adult and see if they really want to waste their court and hearing fees. Mention VCS v Edward 2023 [HOKF6C9C] (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zra61px7l3if53o3bp9c4/VCS-v-EDWARD-Transcript.pdf?rlkey=bv4bba389nau5qpfglqkpjq5l&st=5h12sb24&dl=0). Idiots.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on March 04, 2025, 02:29:54 pm
I submitted the appeal on popla a week or so back with the wording provided above.

I have today received a further email from Britannia Parking with the following:

"Good Afternoon,

Further to you email, we raised your email to DCBL's legal department and they have responded with the following - "if it's non-POFA and they haven't nominated a Driver, we can pursue on the balance of probabilities that if they were not the Driver, they would inform the client who was."

I can see that you have raised a POPLA case, therefore, your next step is to wait for their outcome.

Regards
Amey Richardson
Compliance Manager
Britannia Parking"

Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: DWMB2 on February 11, 2025, 09:48:24 pm
We sometimes advocate something of a 'kitchen sink' approach to POPLA appeals, but given the open and shut nature of the lack of PoFA compliance, I'd be tempted to keep things short and straightforward, and force Britannia to engage with the issue at hand (or, more likely, withdraw).

There's no rush to submit anything, so await other views, but here's a basic starter:

Quote
POPLA Appeal
[NAME] (Registered Keeper) (Appellant)
-Vs-
Britannia Parking Group Limited (Operator)
Vehicle Registration Mark:[VRM]
 POPLA Reference Code: [POPLA REFERENCE]
 Parking Charge Notice Number: [PCN REFERENCE]

Case Overview:
I, the registered keeper (“I”/“the Appellant”) of the above vehicle (VRM: _______), received a parking charge notice via post from Britannia Parking Group Limited (“the Operator”), which purported to be a Notice to Keeper. I appealed to the Operator, who acknowledged and subsequently rejected my appeal. It is my position that as the registered keeper of the vehicle I have no liability for the parking charge, and that my appeal should therefore be upheld. My appeal is on the following ground:

No keeper liability: the Parking Charge Notice does not comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (“PoFA”/“the Act”):
The operator does not not know the identity of the driver and is therefore seeking to recover the charge from me, the registered keeper of the vehicle. In order to be able to recover any unpaid charges from me as the registered keeper, the operator must comply with the requirements outlined in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Britannia have chosen not to do so. Helpfully, the operator confirmed this in writing, when responding to my appeal:

"This Parking Charge is not POFA compliant"

Even if they had claimed to be seeking to hold me liable using the provisions of PoFA, they have failed to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended, as specified by 9(5) of the Act.

Date of Parking: 28/11/2024
Date of PCN issue: 16/12/2024
Date of presumed service: 18/12/2024
Elapsed time period: 20 days

As Britannia concede that they are not seeking to rely on the provisions of PoFA to hold me liable as the keeper, and as there is no evidence as to who was driving, I cannot be held liable for the charge, and my appeal should be upheld.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on February 11, 2025, 08:41:12 pm
Thanks for that, much appreciated.

I have blanked out personal details from the rejection letter and uploaded pages at the following links

https://imgur.com/a/jiTBLax - page 1
https://imgur.com/a/ZGOUY4n - page 2
https://imgur.com/a/n0Lsvcw - page 3
https://imgur.com/a/3ky3fSK - page 4
https://imgur.com/a/cuhW1xY - page 5
https://imgur.com/a/52TIWaJ - page 6
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: b789 on February 11, 2025, 08:28:46 pm
None of their waffle or photos mean anything as long as the they don't know the drivers identity. You, as the Keeper, cannot be liable for the charge.

You have 33 days from the appeal rejection date to submit your POPLA appeal. Someone will provide you with advice on your POPLA appeal soon. Remind us in a couple of days to assist if you've not had a response. No rush.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: DWMB2 on February 11, 2025, 08:25:39 pm
You might want to re-upload that letter without your full name and home address visible.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on February 11, 2025, 08:22:08 pm
Just received a reply from Britannia Parking. They have rejected the appeal and gone to a lot of trouble to include maps, images of signage and full photos of entry and exit.
They have provided a POPLA verification code : [Removed by mod]


Pages of the rejection letter are at the following links

[Removed by mod]

Would appreciate advice on progressing to POPLA appeal stage. Presumably there is no risk that the appeal will not be successful since the original PCN was not issued within 14 days of the alleged infringement?

Thanks
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on January 25, 2025, 08:12:40 am
Received the following email from Britannia parking yesterday.

"Good Afternoon,
 
Thank you for your email, your additional correspondence for your appeal has been logged to our system.
 
Someone will review this as soon as possible and take into consideration what you have said. A decision will be made and sent out to you.

We do have an internal 28 day deadline in which to reply to appeals, however as we have requested additional evidence to be provided our response may exceed this deadline. 

Please regularly check your spam/inbox for correspondence."
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on January 15, 2025, 08:21:03 pm
That's brilliant 😁
Thanks again, I'll send the above as a response to them. Cheers
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: b789 on January 15, 2025, 08:17:35 pm
Let them try that old argument in court... I’d love to be a fly on the wall when that gets before a judge. Nothing like watching a legsl rep getting a spanking in court.

Respond with the following:

Quote
Dear Appeals Department,

Thank you for your letter dated 15/01/2025 in response to my appeal regarding Parking Charge Number [insert PCN number].

Your continued reliance on outdated arguments about "implied contracts with the driver" demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the legal framework governing private parking charges. As clearly established in VCS v Edward [2022], no presumption or inference can be made that the registered keeper was the driver. Your attempt to pursue the registered keeper in this way is legally baseless, farcical and destined to fail.

If you are unable to locate a competent adult within your organisation who can grasp this basic legal principle, you are welcome to reject my appeal and issue a POPLA code. Britannia can then waste money paying for an independent assessor to confirm what I have already explained to you in as few syllables as possible, to make it easier for you to understand.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Name]
Registered Keeper
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on January 15, 2025, 06:39:05 pm
Just had a PDF letter attachment in an email response from Britannia PArking.

They admit that their PCN is not POFA compliant but claim payment can still be sought under the old ‘implied-contract-with-the-driver’ rules used prior to POFA.

They have asked me to disclose the name of the driver at the time of the incident.

Full response doc from Britania PArking is at the following location:

https://imgur.com/a/Yj8hUEp

Would appeciate advice on where I should go from here.

Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on December 19, 2024, 01:19:42 pm
That's brilliant, thanks very much for your reply. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: b789 on December 19, 2024, 01:17:07 pm
It must be "issued" in time for it to be deemed as "given" within 14 days. Allow two working days for delivery, and then that is the date it is "given".

With a contravention date of 28th November and an issue date of 16th December, you don't even have to try and calculate it to see that it has not been "given" within the timescale defined in PoFA. It would have had to have been issued no later than 10th December to comply.

So, an easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Britannia has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. Britannia have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
Title: PCN issued more than 14 days from event
Post by: ixo on December 19, 2024, 01:02:18 pm
Just received today 19 Dec 2024.
Date of notice is shown on letter as 16 Dec 2024.
Date of contravention is shown on the letter as 28 Nov 2024.

It is issued by Britannia parking and letter shows logo of BPA.

It is my understanding that PCN must be issued within 14 days of the incident, is this the case, and is this in itself a valid reason to have the PCN overturned?

Link to notice to keeper is at the following link.
https://imgur.com/a/SmCJIht