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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: LondonTraveller84 on December 17, 2024, 10:13:42 pm

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: LondonTraveller84 on April 14, 2025, 04:28:40 pm

Attached is a gsv showing that it'd take 2/3 minutes for me to walk down from my car to the end of the road, this does not factor in extra time to observe side roads for a P&D machine during the walk, easily making it 3 minutes to get to the end of that road, let alone return back - Not sure if any benefit in adding this.[attach=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: LondonTraveller84 on April 14, 2025, 04:22:23 pm

Hi All,

Final day to response to ajudication, my response to the NTO was:

"I require you to consider my initial challenge as formal representations against the EN - Please cancel the PCN and EN.

The council in their reply are focussing on and enforcing that one can only use Ring Go, while dismissing the fact that there is a option to pay using a Pay and Display machine, this is clearly visible on lamppost signage that day, which is what I chose to do.

As already stated, I went to look for a Pay and Display machine to check the terms and conditions and pay, during this period, I was issued a PCN and that to as stated for a contravention that could not have taken place, as there is no charge due for the 1 hour of free parking."

They have come back further rejecting - https://imgur.com/a/vDNV9z8



Any thoughts on teh appraoch, as my stance still still the same,

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: LondonTraveller84 on March 10, 2025, 08:50:36 pm

Hi All,

I put my defence forward as follows

"I would ask the enforcement authority to reconsider and cancel this PCN, as I was not given sufficient time to obtain a ticket at a pay and display machine. In addition to the above I would like to highlight is that there is no charge for parking for the first hour, so it cannot be said that a motorist was liable to a charge, so the contravention of ‘parking without payment of the parking charge’ has not occurred.

I have noted there are a number of similar cases with the enforcement authority in question, where appellants as a result I will be taking this further to the independent appeal process if this is rejected, with reference to such cases to aid the appeal."

As expected, they rejected with the focus being on a Ringi Pay adn Display ticket - https://imgur.com/a/HJJMSlt

Attached is the sign post the day the ticket was giving, suggesting a pay adn display machine is towards the right direction, having gone past a few days ago to take a photo of this machine, the sign has been changed and neither was a pay and display machine there (I am unsure if it was there on the day the ticket was received as I never got to that far) - https://imgur.com/a/pIn0oOq

I've now waited and recieved the NTO, to which i have a day or two to reply - https://imgur.com/a/WHz9FKd

Any advice, as it stands my only defence is that the signs were misleading, as i had gone to pay and check the terms and conditions on the pay and display machine, in which time a ticket was issued.

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: stamfordman on December 18, 2024, 01:16:17 pm

I don't see any advantage in withholding the 'time to pay' challenge as there are numerous cases allowing this at appeal, while the parking without paying is not a sure thing at tribunal but can probably win with correct argument.

Where there is a chance of getting a cancellation at first stage we should suggest it in my view as otherwise things can go awry later (eg with keeper issues).

As for the free parking issue, this refused case (no surprise by Mr Burke although it isn't clear if the 'charge' issue was properly raised) was overturned on appeal so I agree this should be solid ground but there is only reason to go with this alone if there is nothing else IMO.

------------------

Case Details
Case reference   2240306448
Appellant   Shabana Tasleem
Authority   London Borough of Redbridge
VRM   AV17LVL
   
PCN Details
PCN   AF07320475
Contravention date   13 Apr 2024
Contravention time   17:00:00
Contravention location   High Street
Penalty amount   GBP 80.00
Contravention   Parked without payment of the parking charge
   
Referral date   -
   
Decision Date   17 Sep 2024
Adjudicator   Michael Burke
Appeal decision   Appeal refused
Direction   Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.
Reasons   The allegation in this case is that the vehicle was parked without payment of the parking charge. Miss Tasleem does not dispute this. She explains that the pay and display machines were out of order. She tried to explain to a passing Civil Enforcement Officer that she was locked out of her mobile phone but he just ignored her. She was helping her mother shopping after an injury. Her mother’s mobile phone cannot be used outside the home. She questions what problem she has caused given that the first hour’s parking is free. Miss Tasleem has provided screenshots and video footage as supporting evidence.
The Civil Enforcement Officer’s record confirms that the pay and display machine was out of order. However, it is not unusual for a pay and display machine or payment or validation system to be out of order for one reason or another. In such circumstances the motorist must find an alternative way to park legally, whether by using an alternative machine or payment method or validation method or parking elsewhere.
I cannot know whether an Enforcement Officer heard and ignored Miss Tasleem in the way she alleges. However, even if he did, this would not affect the validity of the PCN.
Miss Tasleem has not established anything which goes beyond mitigation. The Enforcement Authority may cancel a PCN as a matter of their discretion. An Adjudicator has no power to direct cancellation on the basis of mitigating circumstances.
Having considered all the evidence I am satisfied that the contravention occurred and that the PCN was properly issued and served. I am not satisfied that any exemption applies.

Decision Date   14 Oct 2024
Adjudicator   Anthony Chan
Previous decision   Appeal refused
Appeal decision   Appeal allowed
Direction   cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.
Reasons   The Appellant seeks a review of the adjudicator's decision.
The Appellant said that the payment machine was out of order and she was unable to pay by phone.
The adjudicator accepted that the machine was out of order. He found, correctly, that the motorist must find an alternative way to park legally, whether by using an alternative machine or payment method or validation method or parking elsewhere. The adjudicator went on to find, also correctly in my view, that being locked out of one's phone is not a defence.
The point which the Appellant took in this application is that there is no charge for parking for the first hour, it cannot be said that a motorist was liable to a charge so the contravention of parking without payment of the parking charge has not occurred.
The Authority's case is that: " even if a sesslon (sic) is 'free' this still requires to be booked. I note images were taken of the machine however, regardless of the images there was effectively no session to permit parking."
This is not a play on semantics or "mincing on words" as suggested by the Appellant, not least because she is using the same argument in reverse.
The point is that the contarvention is defined by a Traffic Management Order. The Traffic Management Order can define what payment means and it is entitled to go beyond the literal meaning of the word as long as it is reasonable.
For example, Traffic Management Orders requiring "pay and display" can define evidence of payment as displayed in the vehicle or as displayed on the CEO's electronic device to cover payment by phone or app.
It follows that a TMO should say, if it be the intention of the Authority, that a failure to book a free session amount is deemed to be parking without payment. I have therefore directed the authority to make submissions by reference to the Traffic Management Order as to:
•   whether there is no charge for the first hour of parking
•   what Article in the TMO obliges a motorist to register a free parking session
•   how it is argued that a failure to register a free parking session amounts parking without payment.
The Authority has not responded.
Even if the TMO requires the booking of a free session, the requirement needs to be signed. Contrary to the Authority's submission, there were in fact no images taken of the machine and no evidence that motorists have to book a free session.
I am not satisfied that the contravention occurred. I allow the appeal.
   

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: cp8759 on December 18, 2024, 09:48:29 am

Everyone seems to have missed the obvious point: if you can park for free for up to an hour, then there was no parking charge due so you can't have failed to pay it, see John Carmody v London Borough of Redbridge (2210237357, 24 June 2021) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N2RYak_r55cwQFhiRznWqZqU8mhAfR5F/view).

@LondonTraveller84 just make a one line representation as follows:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

The alleged contravention did not occur because no parking charge was due for payment.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and make sure to take a screenshot of the confirmation page. Maybe one day they'll come up with a contravention of failing to have a free pay by phone session or something of the sort, but until then these PCNs are clearly unenforceable. The council will undoubtedly reject but it should be a fairly safe bet at the tribunal, as long as you avoid a postal decision.

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: LondonTraveller84 on December 18, 2024, 09:42:36 am

Quote from: andy_foster on December 18, 2024, 09:30:21 am

So, you had 2 separate PCNs for separate cases where there was no machine where the sign said it was, and it took 5-6 minutes to pay on RingGo?

Didn't think so.

Hi Andy,

The first one I didn't even get a chance to pay wether it had beeen a machine or via the app as literally within 20 seconds I think they had slapped the PCN, yes I hadn't paid while I was in the car is the truth of it, if we're going to go on the basis of the app should have beene used, as is the case many times with these RingGo, where one will make note of the location code, then pay when they get outside or get seated etc..  On this case I had paid via RingGo not knowing the PCN had slapped a PCN on my car already.

Yes there was a sign for a pay and display machine in both cases, I think it's the case across the borough, where they have not changed or updated the signs yet removed the bays and changed observation time to 0 seconds, ie they expect everyone to pay by app before leaving the car.

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: andy_foster on December 18, 2024, 09:30:21 am

So, you had 2 separate PCNs for separate cases where there was no machine where the sign said it was, and it took 5-6 minutes to pay on RingGo?

Didn't think so.

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: Incandescent on December 18, 2024, 01:25:55 am

Oh Dear !

They seemed the same, but if they're different, report to moderator (bottom right of page).

Apropos the PbP/non-existent machine, if they have been too stupid and/or idle to update the sign, then you need to state that you were mislead by their own sign, which you saw and then went to look for the machine to pay for a ticket.

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: LondonTraveller84 on December 18, 2024, 12:19:29 am

I've just recieved a warning, stating I've started a new thread for the same case? although this is a new PCN and a new case? - Should have I re-opened the old thread and picked this up of that?

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: LondonTraveller84 on December 18, 2024, 12:07:29 am

Apologise, have just uploaded.

Agree, only issue is there is no machines, as now they've changed everything to ticketless, so in thoery that principle is out of the window, of giving sufficient time, the councils argument is, you do not leave the car until youve gone onthe mobile app or via phone and bought one.

But here the case Im putting forward I went to find machine and CEO has given a ticket in the time, they will argue sorry no machines and alll ticketless, you had to use mobile/call, I argue your sign said you can pay via a machine, I would only know eventually by taking a walk that there actually was none - simple :)

Only question I would have is, I've had one previous PCN turned on this, if they are clever enough to see the same name, could they counter me with the same reason being used now?

Title: Re: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: Incandescent on December 17, 2024, 11:57:21 pm

There are still no attachments.

The basic principle established at adjudications since 1991, is that time is allowed to go and get a ticket. If it wasn't, nobody could ever park lawfully ! PbP doesn't alter this basic principle. However we have seen cases where people in a rush park and then try to pay using PbP when away from the car park, sometimes 20 or 30 minutes away and are shocked to get a ticket. Well, if one does this, one will struggle !

Please have a read of this and update your thread as necessary: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Title: PCN - Pay and Display Machine Option
Post by: LondonTraveller84 on December 17, 2024, 10:13:42 pm

Hey there!

Think I know how to tackle this, as luckily encountered a similar case, and for those that helped me will be fully aware, but thought I'd get a double take...

Basically parked in a pay and display bay, where 1 hour is free if booked via RingGo, while I did do this online at approx 5/6 minutes after I parked, the warden had already given a ticket within 2 minutes of me parking, as its a 0 minute observation for Redbrdige on this.

The sign however does say you can pay via Pay & Display machine further down, with an arrow in the direction, although there isn't one there, so the case is, went to look for a machine a is an option, but was given a ticket within the time.

Attached is the sign and and PCN - https://imgur.com/a/yokkfOe