Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: jsit00 on August 22, 2023, 05:48:45 pm
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tvfF0CgEGSzUL-UFu-h7LDFgjL4R0-k6/view).
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This was the amoeba argument:
Preamble
I withdraw the original representations criticising the PCN made by my client.
Submissions
1. There has been an unconscionable delay and unnecessary correspondence concerning the conduct of this appeal by the council.
2. Their photographic evidence is of little or no evidential value. And it leaves much to conjecture.
Therefore, notwithstanding the contents of my Preamble above, in light of my submissions I ask that the appeal be allowed please.
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I also contacted Mad Mick Redux the night before who gave me some cases in support as extra ammunition. But, I never usurp the prerogative of the Adjudicator to make their own mind up.
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Another good result.
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BIG THANK YOU TO PHILIP,
;D
The EA has provided photographic evidence of the signage which it contends faced the driver
as he approached the restriction. This shows what appears to be blue and white bus, cycle
and taxi only signage, although the photographs are of poor quality, and an advance warning
sign denoting a width restriction. The quality of this evidence is such that the dates of these
photographs cannot be readily determined. However, having expanded the photographs on
both my screen today, and on Mr Morgan's laptop, it appears that they date back to 2021.
8. Whilst it is not reasonable to expect an EA to provide contemporaneous photographs of the
signage upon which it relied, it is nonetheless incumbent upon that EA to provide photographs
which can be found to accurately show the signage at a location, within a reasonable time of
the date of the alleged contravention. This cannot be said of the photographs provided.
Changes may occur to signage - obstructions/damage and so forth - and the EA must
demonstrate that all relevant signage was prominent, unobscured and unambiguous. I find
that this has not been done in this case.
9. I note that, on the CCTV footage of the incident, the back of what the EA contends is the
restriction sign on the footway is visible. This sign appears to be a rectangular, "landscape"
sign. The corresponding sign in the 2021 library photographs appears to be a square, or
possibly "portrait" sign. Notwithstanding the possibility that this discrepancy may have been
caused by a camera distortion, I cannot be satisfied to the requisite standard that they in fact
show the same sign.
10. For these reasons, I allow this appeal.
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This should be straightforward. (https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji165.png)
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Hearing is on 23rd September. I am attempting to get my head around this mess and will have to make some adjustments re the representations.
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Dear Sirs
I enclose correspondence concerning the cancellation of the OFR and C.C. . Please refer yourselves to Schedule I para. 7(11) and refer the matter to the Tribunal, which is the correct statutory procedure. This is your responsibility not mine.
In light of the protracted history of this matter, I am concerned.
Regards
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Morning All
Order for Recovery letter received from Council.
see attached, till date I have not received any rejection letter from council.
You need to follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
You already have the Order for Recovery so skip to the part which starts with "As soon as the debt has been registered...".
I CP8759
Can you please advise on TEC appeal stage ?
Many thanks
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Need Assistant to complete Appeal form.
Thanks in advance
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I am lost!
Me too ???
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I am lost!
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Finally Rejection Letter arrived with Appeal paper work.
Can you please advise the next step ?
https://ibb.co/JnzwCvN
https://ibb.co/xmSK0vR
https://ibb.co/cCphBrv
https://ibb.co/7tyGMBS
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WTF is going on here?
TEC's revocation notice refers to your SD dated 17 May and is dated 17 May. What a miraculous improvement in turnround times!
The council's only obligation upon being notified by TEC is to refer the matter to the adjudicator. They do NOT get another bite at the representations cherry and neither do you. Even less is it within their power to request that you substantiate your SD grounds to them, this is the prerogative of the adjudicator. And as for offering you a financial sweetener to pay, I'm certain the adjudicator would respond well to having their power usurped!
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Still showing as offence is on hold pendin a review of your recent challange >:(
That was only two weeks ago, the timeframe for a response to representations in a London moving traffic case is 2 / 3 months.
No rejection letter received yet but charge gone up from £65 to £130
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Still showing as offence is on hold pendin a review of your recent challange >:(
That was only two weeks ago, the timeframe for a response to representations in a London moving traffic case is 2 / 3 months.
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I would contact Harrow and tell them to pull their finger out. This waiting game must stop.
I love to do that but they are not available on phone and email is just waste of time as they are not responded even for intial appeal made last year but will drop another email now.
Thanks
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I would contact Harrow and tell them to pull their finger out. This waiting game must stop.
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Email the appeal back in 17th June after that no update from council but check today their website and charge gone up to £130
Contravention: Using A Route Restricted To Certain Vehicles Buses, Cycles And Taxis Only
Date: 2023-08-0606 Aug, 2023
Time: 18:09
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Charge outstanding: £130
This offence is on hold pending a review of your recent challenge
Still showing as offence is on hold pendin a review of your recent challange >:(
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Thanks Will do.
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letter received, do i need resend the appeal.
You need to resend the representations, do you have a copy?
Please stop redacting the dates from everything, it's really annoying and it just stops us from knowing how long you have to act.
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letter received, do i need resend the appeal.
https://ibb.co/cXPw2c2
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Nothing registered to Tribunal yet but just saw below on council website -
Contravention: Using A Route Restricted To Certain Vehicles Buses, Cycles And Taxis Only
Date: 2023-08-0606 Aug, 2023
Time: 18:09
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Charge outstanding: £65
This offence is on hold pending a review of your recent challenge
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Keep your energy and wait for Christmas. It is their prerogative not yours.
One has to check at least every couple of weeks. The risk is that otherwise the "show us your reps" letter gets lost in the post, and the first you hear is the letter saying you've not responded, you've lost the right to appeal and you have 28 days to pay the penalty.
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Keep your energy and wait for Christmas. It is their prerogative not yours.
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Any update yet?
Called Tribinul not registered yet and no letter from council yet. I will give another chase next week.
Thanks
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Any update yet?
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@jsit00 well to avoid the risk of any postal issues, I would call the tribunal on 020 7520 7200 and ask if the PCN has been referred to them by the authority. If the answer is yes, ask the tribunal call centre to:
1) Add your email and contact phone number to the case record,
2) Change the comms preference to email (this is very important),
2) Email you a copy of the "show us your reps" letter and all the evidence from the council.
If the PCN has not been referred to the tribunal yet, call again once a week until it has been, and then follow the steps listed above.
Once you have the council evidence and the "show us your reps" letter, let us know and I'll give you the response to send back.
Many thanks will do and update here.
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@jsit00 well to avoid the risk of any postal issues, I would call the tribunal on 020 7520 7200 and ask if the PCN has been referred to them by the authority. If the answer is yes, ask the tribunal call centre to:
1) Add your email and contact phone number to the case record,
2) Change the comms preference to email (this is very important),
2) Email you a copy of the "show us your reps" letter and all the evidence from the council.
If the PCN has not been referred to the tribunal yet, call again once a week until it has been, and then follow the steps listed above.
Once you have the council evidence and the "show us your reps" letter, let us know and I'll give you the response to send back.
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What cp said above. Tribunal will contact you. Relax.
Thanks for your reply.
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What cp said above. Tribunal will contact you. Relax.
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Letter received from TEC, so what council do as a next step. They never issued a rejection letter, before issuing recovery notice on their website was showing appeal under consideration >:(
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Statutory Declaration get it attested at county court and submitted to TEC and received email confirmation.
@jsit00 the court will issue a revoking order which cancels the charge certificate and the order for recovery, and the authority will refer the case to the tribunal. The tribunal will send you a rather idiotic automated letter asking for a copy of your representations, even though the council has it already. As soon as you get that letter let us know and we'll explain the next steps and how to respond.
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Hi
Statutory Declaration get it attested at county court and submitted to TEC and received email confirmation.
Now what will happened ?
Thanks
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Bus Gate contravention not Bus Lane. Two different legislations.
OK,so what TEC form does the OP use ?
The OP should follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
It's the same form for both pieces of legislation, that's why I wrote one guide to cover both.
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Bus Gate contravention not Bus Lane. Two different legislations.
OK,so what TEC form does the OP use ?
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Bus Gate contravention not Bus Lane. Two different legislations.
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Order for Recovery stage means the council have registered the debt at the Traffic Enforcement Centre. So, for now, any arguments against the PCN must be put to one side, (don't destroy any evidence against it !!!!). The main priority now is to get the process reverted to the PCN stage.
So this being a London bus lane alleged contravention, you will have to submit a Statutory Declaration. If you look at the form, you will see the boxes available for you to tick.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice
When filling in the form, the "Applicant" is the council, you are the "respondent".
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You need to call up and make an appointment.
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Morning All
Order for Recovery letter received from Council.
see attached, till date I have not received any rejection letter from council.
You need to follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
You already have the Order for Recovery so skip to the part which starts with "As soon as the debt has been registered...".
How do I make an appointment at county court or just turned up ?
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Morning All
Order for Recovery letter received from Council.
see attached, till date I have not received any rejection letter from council.
You need to follow the instructions here: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/
You already have the Order for Recovery so skip to the part which starts with "As soon as the debt has been registered...".
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With the time this has taken and with the evidence that the council makes £1.8m a year profit from Camrose Avenue, maybe take 10 minutes to have a look at this link then fill in the questionnaire on the government website. You've got till 11th May to make your voices heard.
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/open-call-for-evidence-restricting-the-generation-of-surplus-funds-from-traffic-/
Form submitted.
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With the time this has taken and with the evidence that the council makes £1.8m a year profit from Camrose Avenue, maybe take 10 minutes to have a look at this link then fill in the questionnaire on the government website. You've got till 11th May to make your voices heard.
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/open-call-for-evidence-restricting-the-generation-of-surplus-funds-from-traffic-/
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Morning All
Order for Recovery letter received from Council.
see attached, till date I have not received any rejection letter from council.
Can somone advise what will be our next step.
On their website -
Contravention: Using A Route Restricted To Certain Vehicles Buses, Cycles And Taxis Only
Date: 2023-08-0606 Aug, 2023
Time: 18:09
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Charge outstanding: £204
Do you want to challenge your PCN?
If you feel that your contravention is unjust, find out how you can challenge your PCN.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Any suggestion ?
Well if the delay goes over 3 / 4 months you have an additional ground of appeal based on undue delay, so I'd definitely not nudge them. The longer the delay, the better.
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Be patient, wait and check the status regularly.
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Hi All
Still no update on case - Is council take this long to allow / refuse the case ?
Contravention: Using A Route Restricted To Certain Vehicles Buses, Cycles And Taxis Only
Date: 2023-08-06
Time: 18:09
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Charge outstanding: £195
This offence is on hold pending a review of your recent challenge
Any suggestion ?
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I say wait for the OFR and do not accept the bribe/threat.
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Letter received -(https://imgur.com/a/T3OxCwh)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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They reduced charges from £195 to £65, it seems now they are considering the appeal. I will update you if I hear from them.
I doubt it, it is far more likely that by sending them a further communication, you have prompted them to offer you a further opportunity to pay the penalty at the £65 rate. This means that you'll have to wait for this further extended discount to expire and for the PCN to be registered with TEC and for the charge to go up to £204 before you can (guess what) make a statutory declaration and send it to TEC, as I said earlier.
We see this a lot, people don't get the notice of rejection in the post, a charge certificate comes through and they contact the council, this just delays the whole thing by weeks, sometimes by months. That's why we advise against contacting the council in these circumstances, it just delays things.
The notice of rejection will have been issued ages ago and as I've told you, it's been lost in the post. The fact that you have not received it does not mean the council has not considered your challenge and issued a response.
Of course I could be entirely wrong, but we see a lot of cases like this and the above explains this scenario at least 99% of the time.
Thanks for your advise but I have not offer them that I will pay reduce charge, I emailed them when I received Charge certificate and asked them about the rejection notice but no reply from them so far. Now the amount changed to £65 now I am awaiting appeal accepted or rejection notice ;)
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They reduced charges from £195 to £65, it seems now they are considering the appeal. I will update you if I hear from them.
I doubt it, it is far more likely that by sending them a further communication, you have prompted them to offer you a further opportunity to pay the penalty at the £65 rate. This means that you'll have to wait for this further extended discount to expire and for the PCN to be registered with TEC and for the charge to go up to £204 before you can (guess what) make a statutory declaration and send it to TEC, as I said earlier.
We see this a lot, people don't get the notice of rejection in the post, a charge certificate comes through and they contact the council, this just delays the whole thing by weeks, sometimes by months. That's why we advise against contacting the council in these circumstances, it just delays things.
The notice of rejection will have been issued ages ago and as I've told you, it's been lost in the post. The fact that you have not received it does not mean the council has not considered your challenge and issued a response.
Of course I could be entirely wrong, but we see a lot of cases like this and the above explains this scenario at least 99% of the time.
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Good to hear. Yet another example of too many PCNs issued but not enough competent staff to deal with them.
I would ask them for a full log history. Now.
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Hi All
Just checking on council website if they have updated anything and found below -
Date: 2023-08-0606 Aug, 2023
Time: 18:09
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Charge outstanding: £65
They reduced charges from £195 to £65, it seems now they are considering the appeal. I will update you if I hear from them.
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Can you please advise what next step can be taken at this stage ?
Wait for the charge on the council website to go up to £204 and then file a statutory declaration as I said earlier.
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Thanks for the information,
Rejection notice is not lost but they have not made any decision yet and send me a charge certificate, see below from their website.
You don't know that, the information on the website is not a comprehensive history of everything that has ever happened. All you know is that a charge certificate has been issued and the authority has put a hold on the PCN.
Either your representation was never received by the council (you've not told us if you challenged online or by post, so we don't know), or it was received and a notice of rejection was posted but was lost in the post.
While it is not impossible that the council received your representation and just issued a charge certificate, this would be exceptionally unlikely, I don't think we see something like that more than once a year if that. In 99.9% of cases like yours, a notice of rejection has been issued and it's been lost in the post.
As others have said, all you can do at this point is wait for the amount due to go up to £204 and then file a statutory declaration as I explained above.
Hi Cp8759, I have not seen your post until I moved to the 2nd page. charge certificate issued but never received a rejection letter from them, I submitted my appeal by email and they have confirmed it by reply that they received and its on hold. after receiving charge certificate I search the forum and found that i need a rejection notice number to check with tribunal, I contacted twice to the council but they have not replied yet and on their website still showing as appeal received and its on hold with amount showing £195.
Charge outstanding: £195
This offence is on hold pending a review of your recent challenge
Can you please advise what next step can be taken at this stage ?
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Hi
How long council can take to decide on appeal, it has been nearly 3 months since appeal submitted ?
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Thanks for the information,
Rejection notice is not lost but they have not made any decision yet and send me a charge certificate, see below from their website.
You don't know that, the information on the website is not a comprehensive history of everything that has ever happened. All you know is that a charge certificate has been issued and the authority has put a hold on the PCN.
Either your representation was never received by the council (you've not told us if you challenged online or by post, so we don't know), or it was received and a notice of rejection was posted but was lost in the post.
While it is not impossible that the council received your representation and just issued a charge certificate, this would be exceptionally unlikely, I don't think we see something like that more than once a year if that. In 99.9% of cases like yours, a notice of rejection has been issued and it's been lost in the post.
As others have said, all you can do at this point is wait for the amount due to go up to £204 and then file a statutory declaration as I explained above.
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Looks like you've now got to wait for the Order for Recovery so you can submit a Statutory Declaration to get the matter reverted to the PCN.
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Another classic example of the left and right hands not talking to each other. Just wait for their next missive.
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Thanks for the information,
Rejection notice is not lost but they have not made any decision yet and send me a charge certificate, see below from their website.
Contravention: Using A Route Restricted To Certain Vehicles Buses, Cycles And Taxis Only
Date: 2023-08-0606 Aug, 2023
Time: 18:09
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Charge outstanding: £195
This offence is on hold pending a review of your recent challenge
If you would like to send further evidence for your existing case, please email your HR & VRM (Vehicle registration) number with your evidence to parking.enforcement@harrow.gov.uk.
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If the notice of rejection was lost in the post, there is no guarantee this won't happen for the order for recovery as well. If you miss the order for recovery, it can be hard to impossible to get things back on track, so you can't run that risk.
The PCN is sat at £195 at the moment, keep an eye on https://www.harrow.gov.uk/parking-permits and as soon as it goes up to £204, you can download form PE3 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice), fill it in (remember the applicant is the council, not you) and tick the box to say you never got the Notice of Rejection (do not fill in the reasons box, this must be left blank), then make an appointment with your local county court or magistrates' court to get it sworn.
Once the form has been sworn, scan or photograph it and email it to tec@justice.gov.uk with the PCN number in the subject line.
When the amount due on the council website drops back down to £130, it means TEC has served a revoking order on the council. Let us know when this happens (you'll need to check once every 10 days or so after you've emailed TEC) and we'll help with the next steps.
Any questions please ask.
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Yes indeed. But first you have to get back to the PCN and your reps stage, so you can register an appeal at London Tribunals, when you can submit that as part of your appeal.
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Thanks
I read through some Charge certificate disputes.
When they register the debt with TEC, I will follow the process but found below -
Charge certificate sent before appeal rejection - The procedural impropriety
The Enforcement Authority will be aware of the then Chief Adjudicator's decision in case reference 2050339777 Miah v. City of Westminster in which the Local Authority had issued a Charge Certificate in similar circumstances. The Chief Adjudicator pointed out that the Charge Certificate amounted to an unlawful demand for money coupled with a threat of court action in default, and stated:
'The procedural impropriety in the issuing of this unlawful demand in my view fundamentally undermines the lawfulness of the enforcement process in this case, and undermines the authority and jurisdiction of this tribunal. This unlawful act debars the local authority from pursuing further enforcement of this penalty.'
I take the same view in this case as the Chief Adjudicator took in Miah and accordingly I allow the appeal.
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Obviously you don't pay it. If the woodentops register the debt at TEC, you can submit the usual Statutory Declaration.
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(I commented on the old thread)
What is the date of their e-mail?
To which OP replied -
they replied back on 31/08/2023 confirming that the they received the challenge PCN is on hold.
Check today their website which also confirms that - This offence is on hold pending a review of your recent challenge
How do they increase the value ?
It looks like nobody's told their computer it is on hold.
As November is drawing near, time for you to copy this thread over to ftla ?(see note at end of this post).
Sorry, having read back through your thread, I now realise you are on ftla under a different pseudonym. So I'll repost my comment there.
Here' the CC for you.
(https://i.ibb.co/GfZKP2V/SKM-C364e23102413530.jpg) (http://"https://ibb.co/WNrbKyc")
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Hi All
I made an appeal against PCN in time and no reply received from council till date and they sent me a charge notice. see attached.https://ibb.co/WNrbKyc
Thank you for your email
We are in receipt of your challenge and the case is on hold waiting to be dealt with.
The Council are currently experiencing a slight backlog and so you may not receive a response for a further 3-4 weeks. The case will remain on hold until it is dealt with.
Kind Regards,
Parking Enforcement
just check the PCN on council website -
Vehicle details:
2007 GREEN HONDA, 1339 PETROL
Contravention: Using A Route Restricted To Certain Vehicles Buses, Cycles And Taxis Only
Date: 2023-08-0606 Aug, 2023
Time: 18:09
Location: CAMROSE AVENUE
Charge outstanding: £195
This offence is on hold pending a review of your recent challenge
If you would like to send further evidence for your existing case, please email your HR & VRM (Vehicle registration) number with your evidence to parking.enforcement@harrow.gov.uk.
Many thanks
https://ibb.co/WNrbKyc
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+1
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I have responded to the OP and will draft him an appeal. Subject to the Council's response we can then take a decision as to whether an approach to the Tribunal is justified.
Mike
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Congratulations on win Staygulf
PM send to MMV Redux, awaiting a reply.
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Hi Hippocrates
Thanks for the update, Can you please direct me to the case so I can prepare my appeal or please help me to prepare the appeal.
Regards
Send MMV Redux a PM. He won this for me last week. Maybe he'll agree to do the same for you. Good luck.
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Hi Hippocrates
Thanks for the update, Can you please direct me to the case so I can prepare my appeal or please help me to prepare the appeal.
Regards
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Case won last week because of their faulty evidence: undated photos of the signs.
https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1aXzA3M8jCbefIkv2Jfkbpbr6KYUV9vH5
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Hi
Due to closure on Queensbury road, I have to use alternate route and never been to this road in my whole life. I even do not remember that we passed through the BUS GATE (never heard or seen)
PCN received couple of day before dt 16/8/2023, contravention date 06/08/2023 at 18:09, see images of PCN.
I researched regarding PCN and found out that this is a trap set up by council,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64394656
Camrose Avenue: Council makes £1.8m in driving fines from one road
I see many past cases here where council withdrawn at PATAS stage or lost at PATAS.
I will appreciate and need your help to prepare my defence / appeal.
All Inputs are welcome.
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