Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: confusedone on December 13, 2024, 05:07:22 pm

Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on February 14, 2025, 12:03:21 pm
I am pleased to report that Britannia have decided to cancel the charge they imposed on me.The advice given to me on this forum ,In particular from B789 and DWMB2 was invaluable .Thank you guys
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on January 18, 2025, 04:21:24 pm
There isn't a single unregulated private parking company that is not willfuly deceptive, when it suits their needs. They have mostly grown from ex-clamping outfits and are extremely profitable, thanks to the gullibility and ignorance of the majority of motorists who fall victim to their operations.

Waitrose and many other companies are also ignorant and have usually been duped into contracting the services of these bottom-dwelling companies. There are plenty of retail parks and businesses that have succumbed to the terrible damage that these parasitic firms cause by scaring away the customers because of their bad practices.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 18, 2025, 04:02:26 pm
OK .I await their response .It surprises me that Waitrose would wish to associate themselves wth a business that seems to be so willfully deceptive .
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on January 18, 2025, 03:39:14 pm
What "fine"? Why do you keep considering that this is some sort of statutory penalty? Get it in your head that all you received was an invoice from a private company.

Why would you even consider paying an invoice from a private company if you do not agree that is valid? Do not be the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree that falls for their scam.

They can add as much as they like to the invoice amount. that doesn't mean that you owe it to them. They just hope you are gullible enough to know no better and an easy "mug" for fleecing.

Wait for them to reject the appeal. They are going to reject no matter what you respond with because there is no chance for easy money in it for them by accepting your appeal.

When they reject, they are obliged to provide a POPLA code which you will use to submit a secondary appeal. If they still want to contest your appeal, Britannia must pay a £35 fee to POPLA for the assessment. Even if POPLA don't uphold your appeal, their decision is not binding on you and you do not fold like a pack of cards and pay up.

We will cross that bridge if/when we come to it but no one pays a penny to Britannia if they are here receiving and follow the advice we provide.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 18, 2025, 01:48:59 pm
 Just to be clear about this point B789 and DW

 You can see in their last email that they are asking for  "additional evidence" and that "due to awaiting"   ......." your appeal response may exceed our 28 day deadline ".

I may have misunderstood this.

If I do not reply,it will certainly go past their deadline.Does that have consequences for me ....fine goes up ?? If so would it not be prudent to respond to the effect that I have said all i wish to say regarding my appeal
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 17, 2025, 05:57:15 pm
Hello Dwmb,
Its good to see you back on here.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: DWMB2 on January 17, 2025, 04:04:42 pm
Agreed - await a POPLA code.

If I were a betting man, I'd back Britannia to back out before they have to pay the POPLA fee.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on January 17, 2025, 03:57:35 pm
Don't waste any more time and effort on them. The ball is in their court and they need to decide what they want to do next. Cancel the PCN or reject your points and issue with a POPLA code where you can make a second appeal that will cost them £35 if they want it assessed.

POPLA are likely to uphold the appeal but, they can be bit moronic from time to time, depending on the individual assessor (could be the tea boy that day) and if unsuccessful has no bearing on anything going forwards as the POPLA decision is not binding on the appellant if unsuccessful.

There are many options going forward and we just have to wait and see what develops. The only certain thing is that you won't be paying a penny to Britannia.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 17, 2025, 01:46:36 pm
Thanks B789.and Mick, I understand that the insurance issue is a red-herring...and they know it.

In their last email (shown above), I am not clear of the meaning of the last 2 penultimate paras.

Do they mean that THEY are delaying reviewing or responding to my appeal until I comply with their demand for further info.Inferring,If i do not respond,it will bring us past THEIR  deadline and I will be held to blame and suffer the consequences of THEIR deadline ?

In your last email were you thinking I should not reply to their last email ?
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on January 17, 2025, 11:47:39 am
Where on earth do you get the notion that Britannia or any of the other companies have an ounce of "decency" within them? I have no idea where this "kumbaya" idea of rainbows and fluffiness about unregulated, ex-clamper thugs who operate on the edge of lawfulness and beyond comes from.

That response to your appeal is evidence of their intellectual malnourishment and only serves to show how mendacious they can be when it comes to attempting to extort money out of you. Their only motive and reason d'être is to scam you out of your hard earned money.

As for the imbecilic threat about asking the judge to determine who is able to drive the vehicle... if that suggestion wasn't so moronic, it would be laughable. It is not the judges responsibility to determine who is eligible to drive the vehicle. It is the claimant burden to prove who was driving.

My comprehensive car policy gives me third party cover to allow me to drive ANY other vehicle as long as I have the owners permission. Millions of motorists have insurance policies that provide third party cover to drive vehicles other than the insured vehicle. Showing a judge your insurance policy proves absolutely nothing. IN the UK, it is the 'driver" who must be insured, not the vehicle.

Utter fecking eejits who wrote that appeal rejection. I can guarantee that this will never, ever get as far as a hearing in front of any judge. For now, just play the game and wait for the response to that letter.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 17, 2025, 11:23:44 am
Yes Mick I think so.
 I think i can see exactly the game they are playing.It is not blakcmail but it is certainly not the behaviour that i would expect from a decent company.It's rather more of a threat ......like  .." pay up or take the consequences of messing with us !"
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 17, 2025, 10:19:28 am
Seems to be here, i hope it's readable.... my computing skills are minimal. This is the only response i have recived from Britannia since i sent my appeal to the "correct" department
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: mickR on January 17, 2025, 10:16:59 am
I'm trying to decide if it's a clever ploy to scare the keeper into thinking the insurance certificate is some kind of slam dunk evidence, or
if they are just thick
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 17, 2025, 10:11:22 am
I hope attatchment arrives here ?  B789

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on January 16, 2025, 02:59:42 pm
Can you please show us all the correspondence since the response was that was crafted above was sent? Whilst we know that there is an intellectual malnourishment, certainly within the department that has been sent the response and most likely those that have responded to you so far, but we need the evidence of harassment so that, should you choose to do so, you can counterclaim should they issue a claim or simply sue them anyway.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 16, 2025, 12:34:25 pm
Hi, B789. I have now received the responce from Britannia who basically state the same stuff as in the first responce, where they say I had not sent my communication  to the "correct" department.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on January 04, 2025, 10:57:49 am
Back to business.
B789 and others will be interested to know that my appeal,that had apparently not been sent to the "correct" department had to be resent to the "correct" department before it could be considered .I complied with this request and have received a response from the person who received my original email, that this has now been done. I  await the decision.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 24, 2024, 10:10:11 am
 Thankyou b789 I am sure there are a lot of people waiting for the response
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 23, 2024, 07:37:00 pm
Thank your providing us with the response from Britannia to your appeal. Here is the letter you received:

(https://i.imgur.com/0CXPxXp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/sON3I6O.png)

This is my suggested response to the email from Britannia:

Quote
Subject: Formal Complaint and Response to Britannia Parking's Refusal to Accept Appeal

TO: The Compliance Manager, Britannia Parking

Dear Ms Richardson,

I refer to your email dated 23 December 2024 regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). Please find my responses to the points raised:

1. Appeal Submission Channels:

Your refusal to accept the appeal submitted to your complaints email address contravenes the BPA/IPC Single Code of Practice (2024). Section 11.2 of the Code clearly states that where a parking operator receives a complaint that could be interpreted as an appeal, it must be treated as such for the purposes of meeting the timescales in Clause 8.4. My appeal fully complies with this requirement, and your failure to treat it as such breaches your obligations as a member of the BPA.

2. Non-PoFA Compliance and Keeper Liability:

You openly admit that your NtK fails to comply with the requirements of PoFA 2012, which means you cannot hold the vehicle's keeper liable—an elementary fact that seems to have escaped you. Your attempt to fall back on some outdated notion of 'implied contract' is not only irrelevant but highlights a fundamental misunderstanding of your own legal position.

The absence of PoFA compliance nullifies any claim against the keeper. If this basic legal principle is unclear to you, I would recommend passing this appeal to a responsible adult with the necessary understanding and legal training to explain it to you.

3. Driver Assumptions:

Your claim that the keeper is 'probably' the driver is speculative nonsense, unsupported by evidence or law. There is no legal requirement for the keeper to name the driver, and such baseless assumptions have been routinely dismissed in adjudications and court rulings. The registered keeper unequivocally denies any liability for this charge, and you have provided no evidence whatsoever to support your claim. If you find this concept difficult to grasp, I again suggest you consult someone with a firmer understanding of the law who can explain it to you.

4. Insurance Certificate Threat:

Your laughable suggestion that an insurance certificate could somehow be used to identify the driver betrays either a staggering ignorance of how insurance works or a deliberate attempt to intimidate. For your information, anyone with the owner's permission and appropriate third-party liability insurance can lawfully drive the vehicle, making your assertion not only baseless but moronic. If you genuinely believe this argument holds any weight, it really might be time to consult someone who actually understands the law before embarrassing yourselves further in court.

5. Validity of the Charge:

The validity of your parking charge is fundamentally undermined by your failure to comply with PoFA 2012. Without adherence to the statutory requirements, your NtK is toothless, and any attempt to enforce the charge against the keeper is legally untenable. Persisting with this baseless claim only serves to highlight the inadequacy of your processes and understanding of the law.

In light of the above, I reiterate my appeal and formally request that you cancel this PCN. Furthermore, your conduct, including your refusal to follow the BPA/IPC Code of Practice and reliance on speculative arguments, will be reported to the BPA and your client landowner.

Should you choose to reject this appeal, I require you to provide a POPLA code to allow me to escalate the matter and you can waste your money having an assessor point out Britannias embarrassing failings in understanding both the law and the Code of Practice. I remind you that any further correspondence that fails to address the substantive points raised here may be treated as harassment.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Full Name]
Registered Keeper
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 23, 2024, 03:06:28 pm
Please show us he response from Britannia with their moronic claim that they will have your insurance “inspected”. I will pass it on to “coupon mad” over on MSE as she is on the MHCLG Steering Committee of the Private Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019. This would be another good example of the rogue practices of these cowboy operators that the Act is designed to prevent.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: DWMB2 on December 23, 2024, 02:07:42 pm
I will send you a private message.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 23, 2024, 01:48:23 pm
 DWMB2 i am happy to send the PCN and the recent email to you personally. I plead my lack of computer skills etc again . For fear of error on my part, how do i do that ?
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: DWMB2 on December 23, 2024, 01:09:14 pm
If you are able to use the online form for appeals, I would recommend doing that. Whilst you shouldn't have to, pragmatically it at least means your appeal has been registered.

If you cannot operate the online form, I would be happy to submit it on your behalf with your permission, but you would need to share with me via private message an unredacted copy of the PCN including your personal details, so I would understand if you were not comfortable doing so.

You could also escalate a complaint to the BPA about Britannia's failure to adhere to the Code of Practice, but our first priority is to get them to consider your appeal.

Using your insurance to determine who can drive the vehicle is simply nonsense. My insurance would cover me to drive your car if I had your permission to do so, for example.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 23, 2024, 12:55:17 pm
Forum members will be interested to know that I have just received a reply from Britannia to the email I sent as worded by B789. Firstly they tell me that they do not accept the appeal because it wasn't sent to them via the instructions on their original letter and that i should re-send in the manner that they have setout in that letter.
They then point out,
  i para-phrase for brevity, that they stand by their right to issue the fine. They also added that if it goes to court they will request that my insurance should be examined for the purpose of establishing who is allowed to drive.
I can show this recent email unless you are already familiar with their response .

What is the method that i should use to get it to the forum ? Thankyou for your assistance.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 20, 2024, 01:22:00 pm
Thankyou !!!  I have been blind to that error from the very beginning.....even the thread subject title.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: DWMB2 on December 20, 2024, 12:24:55 pm
You've spelt Britannia wrong there. It's complaints@britannia-parking.co.uk (complaints@britannia-parking.co.uk)
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 20, 2024, 12:14:43 pm
Hi B789.
 
My email to     complaints@brittania-parking.co.uk      has just been returned undelivered but saying they will try again on the 22ndDec.

Is that overloaded in box  at the complaints department??
Will report back when i get more news

While i'm here,  " May I wish you all a Merry Christmas and Happy Parking over the year ahead"
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 17, 2024, 07:48:32 pm


Thankyou.
 Before my mostrecent posting here I had visited their website and found their own Appeal system but as i do not have any experience of these matters, i did not venture in.Out of interest....
If i had  done so and complied with whatever it then asked of me, would my words ( already scripted ) have ended up on the same desk ?
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 17, 2024, 03:30:43 pm
Send it as a complaint. The Single Code of Practice (SCoP), Section 11.2: Where a parking operator receives a complaint that it considers to be or include an appeal against the validity of a parking charge, the parking operator must also treat it as an appeal for the purposes of applying the timescales in Clause 8.4, and should inform the complainant as such unless and until it is clear that the complaint is not relevant to an appeal or the complainant informs the parking operator that they do not wish it to be so handled.

This is their complaints email address:

complaints@britannia-parking.co.uk

As they try to make it as hard as possible to actually appeal by email, use their own rules to force them to accept it.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 17, 2024, 12:28:17 pm
Pursuant of my  appeal, I have just typed an email to Brittania in the manner suggested by forum member but I cannot find an email address  to send it to.
 Do i need to use their website to process my appeal ?

thankyou
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 16, 2024, 08:48:00 pm
Thankyou. I will do so.

I appreciate every one's help !
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: DWMB2 on December 16, 2024, 08:45:13 pm
The b789's suggested appeal will be fine to use.

(I didn't doubt this but always good to have sight of the dates)
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 16, 2024, 08:43:44 pm
Yes,
The date of contravention 22/11/24.    Date of this notice 9/12/24    This info is as written on the Notice to Keeper.
I received the notice through the post at a later date and contacted this forum
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: DWMB2 on December 16, 2024, 08:13:26 pm
For future reference, can you confirm:

Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 16, 2024, 08:02:50 pm
I am sorry that i  have caused a bit of confusion by removing a post. I therefore have waited a few hours before posting again. I was about to appeal exactly as suggested  and will do so unless advised otherwise.
I am  out of my depth with the intracasies of forums or dealing with what can be considered as unintentional or  unfair parking fines in Waitrose customer parking areas .I value the input of the members of this forum who are familiar with these matters and i know that the help offered does not carry a guarantee.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 16, 2024, 01:10:55 pm
The NtK, when I was able to see it, had not been issued in time for it to comply with PoFA 9(2)(4)(b), Hence the reason I have advised the OP responds with the suggested appeal above.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: H C Andersen on December 16, 2024, 10:52:38 am
OP, would you pl repost the NTK front page suitably redacted. (I can understand why it was taken down but as it's primary evidence it needs to be reposted).

Also, where's your receipt pl?

Your first port of call is Waitrose, but we don't know whether you overstayed by 3 hours including 2 hours after you paid for your purchases or what. We don't know the location so cannot verify the parking terms.

Whether you would succeed with Waitrose is an unknown, your chances with the parking operator (Britannia?) are unclear. The info required by the Act(PoFA) isn't on the back page, but the front..?

Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 16, 2024, 08:51:29 am
Thank you Sir !
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: DWMB2 on December 16, 2024, 12:05:18 am
I've removed the front image which contained some personal details.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 15, 2024, 04:09:57 pm
Thank you all for assisting me with my problems regarding computers , forums,and parking ! I will appeal and report back in due course
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 15, 2024, 03:48:04 pm
Lucky for you, the NtK is not PoFA compliant. Easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Britannia has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. Britannia have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: mickR on December 15, 2024, 03:44:52 pm
I've asked a mod to help you.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 15, 2024, 03:20:28 pm
MickR

Thankyou......what a twit! How do i remove that post ?
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: mickR on December 15, 2024, 03:03:17 pm
congratulations on your efforts at navigating computers and websites at the age of 81.
you have however left your personal details on display you may wish to remove edit and repost.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 15, 2024, 02:33:12 pm
It is the front of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) we need to see. Only redact your personal info and the PCN number. We need to see all dates and times.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 15, 2024, 02:21:31 pm
Thanks for message
Hopefully this is something you wish to see.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 15, 2024, 01:42:21 pm
The £40 is known as the "mugs discount". If you are relying on that, then we cannot help you. We will only fight these unfair Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) if the recipient believes that they have been issued unfairly and we do not condone funding these scammers.

The "date of issue" will be several days after the actual alleged contravention. It is wither stated on the front of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) as such or just use the date of the letter itself.
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 15, 2024, 11:07:38 am
Thankyou for your assistance Karma. Yes ,the notice is ..Parking charge. Notice to Keeper .It seems one has 14 days to pay to get the £70 fine reduced to £40.
I will send copy of the notice as soon as i figure out how to do it ! I struggle with computer stuff
I'm not entirely clear when the 14 days is up.It says from issue date.... ie , not date of receiving the notice.

confusedone
Title: Re: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: b789 on December 13, 2024, 08:40:34 pm
Welcome. Please read this thread and then show us the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) you received from Britannia. Was it a postal Notice to Keeper (NtK)?

READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)

Your first proof call is indeed Waitrose. If the car park is exclusively theirs, then it is highly likely that they are the contractor for Britannia and should be able to tell them to cancel the PCN.

When you approach Waitrose, you should be aiming as high up the management food chain with your request for them to get the PCN cancelled. Let them know how unfair it is that their loyal customers are hit with a £100 (or whatever the amount) invoice for a slight overstay due to unforeseen circumstances.

I wouldn't mention that you left the car parked in their car park to visit your solicitor. It's not really relevant. The point is that you are a loyal and regular customer and this an unfair PCN.
Title: Waitrose Brittania parking
Post by: confusedone on December 13, 2024, 05:07:22 pm
Hi , I'm not great on computer stuff,especially forum manoevres .
I shopped in Waitrose on 22nd Nov at Bury St Edmunds and took my shopping back to car. I am 81 so am more used to cash than cards so probably paid cash.
I had an appointment with a nearby solicitor but thought i would be back in time. However, the solicitor was running way behind time and i had to wait.This was a free appointment to discuss my will .The meeting took far longer than I expected but I could hardly walk out from a gentleman who clearly had my best interests at heart.As I left he asked where I'd parked and I said where ,only to be told that they were very hot on parking (as I have just found out).
Having received a notice from them today I found a similar notice had been discussed on here (also from Brittania regarding Waitrose overstay charge that was successfully appealed. So before I wrote to Waitrose for clemency I thought it wise to seek advice.
Hopefully, i too may then continue to shop at Waitrose without unhappy flash backs

thanks in anticipation !