Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: LondonTraveller84 on December 11, 2024, 03:31:22 pm
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;D Took 30 seconds as I hoped it would. Mr HMG does not approve when councils do not attend! Decision tomorrow.
Was amazing having you represent me, and learnt a fair bit and a eye opener, because average people like me would use some basic reasons, like the sign could not be seen properly, however you used technical reasoning and shall I say reasons that one would question or doubt (if the first time)
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@cp8759 "Like shooting fish in a barrel" ;D
Actually it's rats, which seems more appropriate !
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@cp8759 "Like shooting fish in a barrel" ;D
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pDEzRoSpog5dIsILczMvFx4-10LS2yVE/view).
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;D Took 30 seconds as I hoped it would. Mr HMG does not approve when councils do not attend! Decision tomorrow.
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Appeal filed.
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No point in replying to them. It is Tribunal time. If you want me to represent you please PM me and I will do the rest. Received and replied.
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Hi All,
as expected another rejection after the NTO, onto the ajudication appeal it goes
Their response: https://imgur.com/a/ShS5w5E
THis time shall I now reply with further information, and hte pictures I had attached showing the angle of the signage and a car turning etc?
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Weekends are not counted.
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16th is deadline as deemed served on Monday 17th February.
Date of EN served is 13th on the letter? I assume i would have received it a day or two later, but it states from the mentioned on the letter - in which case 12th was the deadline :O
17th is the notice for my other PCN, seperate thread. :)
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It doesn't seem to say the sign is required or mandatory, rather it 'may be' and 'most likely'? or am i being too kind and innocent here. Although I do agree with the fact that the sign does seem more for the main road, rather then side road.
The guidance here is clear and I think given the layout an adjudicator would take a dim view of it not being followed.
Indeed, especially if they cannot explain why they have not followed the TSM.
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It doesn't seem to say the sign is required or mandatory, rather it 'may be' and 'most likely'? or am i being too kind and innocent here. Although I do agree with the fact that the sign does seem more for the main road, rather then side road.
The guidance here is clear and I think given the layout an adjudicator would take a dim view of it not being followed.
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16th is deadline as deemed served on Monday 17th February.
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Also the TH website is a bit odd I clicked make formal rep but it took me to the same page as a informal rep (see attached), so couldn't tell if this will be classed as a formal rep or not :/
The form is headed Challenge/Representation
Challenge is the proper name for informal reps
Representations are made against ENs and NtOs
So the same form serves for both kinds.
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Sent the formal rep across that Hippocrates suggested, just added the following "Lack of advance warning/adequate signage when approaching from the side road, further exacerbated due to detrimental weather conditions and traffic conditions."
Although Im a tad bit worried if I've gone past the 28 days (EN dated 13th Feb, I believe 28 days was yesterday but I sent it right now, 30 past midnight).
Also the TH website is a bit odd I clicked make formal rep but it took me to the same page as a informal rep (see attached), so couldn't tell if this will be classed as a formal rep or not :/
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I won against Brighton council for travelling in a bus lane because I had accessed it by coming the other way down the same road and going right round the roundabout to return up the road which it turned out was entirely a bus lane. Unfortunately, they hadn't realised that anyone could or would do that and there was no signage that it was a bus lane until I was in it, when it said bus lane on the road. They didn't even bother to turn up.
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Everything hinges on their duty in The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 Regulation 18: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
The problem, like so much in English law is use of words that are subjective, and here the word is "adequate". Your inadequate, can be the adjudicators "adequate". However, I think if a turn left out of a side road took you straight into a bus lane, and there was no sign, then an adjudicator would normally rule the signing is inadeqhate.
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I think they'll lose on the signage aloneat adjudication as the bus lane sign is clearly placed for traffic on the main road and there is no bus lane warning as per the traffic signs manual below.
(https://i.imgur.com/CffAVZh.png)
It doesn't seem to say the sign is required or mandatory, rather it 'may be' and 'most likely'? or am i being too kind and innocent here. Although I do agree with the fact that the sign does seem more for the main road, rather then side road.
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(2)An enforcement notice must state—
(a)the amount of the penalty charge payable;
(b)the grounds on which the council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the enforcement notice is served;
(d)that failure to pay the penalty charge may lead to an increased charge being payable;
(e)the amount of that increased charge;
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted
The law is silent with regard to making of representations deadline.
Am I missing something here, they've stated al 5 (a-e) in the EN? as for the deadline, surely its straight forward
i. If we count the day of the notice as day 1, then its 12th
ii. If we take 24 hours from the day of notice as day 1, then its 13th?
iii. I have heard of this +2 days for postage but always scared to test it. :-[
For the back burner: website clearly fetters to theft:
The vehicle had been taken without the keepers consent (stolen)
Let me think about adding something along the lines of Egenti v Islington on this issue. We do not have much time. 16th March.
1. Egenti v Islington - Very interesting, just had a read of your post on this! just surpises me the level of appeals and reasons, that your average joe wouldn't even dare to think or consider - So our defene here is the CCTV, doesn't show the conditions around my entry, ie looking left, weather and others, obstacles etc, hence not a full picture? I was going to say I entered further down, having missed the sign, and no further signs were seen.
2. The vehicle had been taken without the keepers consent (stolen) - Surely we can't use this, they'd want proof and also police report and what not?
I will await to see if you guys want me to add anything further, otherwise will reply tomorrow (12th) with your reply, with no pictures at this stage, although confident they'll reject on same grounds, should we not be adding some further reasonings for them to consider?
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Exactly. But they are dumb and we should not do their job for them. Pepipoo had a case years ago which Mr Houghton allowed on this issue. All I remember it was an Islington case.
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I think they'll lose on the signage aloneat adjudication as the bus lane sign is clearly placed for traffic on the main road and there is no bus lane warning as per the traffic signs manual below.
Coincidentally I cycled around there on a. bike ride today.
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(https://i.imgur.com/CffAVZh.png)
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(2)An enforcement notice must state—
(a)the amount of the penalty charge payable;
(b)the grounds on which the council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(c)that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the enforcement notice is served;
(d)that failure to pay the penalty charge may lead to an increased charge being payable;
(e)the amount of that increased charge;
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted
The law is silent with regard to making of representations deadline.
I suggest this and do no not engage with their first letter. Please do not provide any pictures: let them prove their case. Your pictures can be kept for the Fifth Set and I am more than happy to represent you. I have not lost a bus lane case in the last 4 years since I have been back in the game. 8) Hence, in part, my Petition.
Dear TH
I require you to consider my initial challenge as formal representations against the EN.
Please cancel the PCN and EN.
****
For the back burner: website clearly fetters to theft:
The vehicle had been taken without the keepers consent (stolen)
Let me think about adding something along the lines of Egenti v Islington on this issue. We do not have much time. 16th March.
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Hi All, received the enforcement letter, a few weeks back, see attached, https://imgur.com/a/yOeNGoR
I have attached some photos i took hoping I can use in my defence - https://imgur.com/a/STlk39O
I believe the only defence is that 1 the position of the sign and 2 the oncoming traffic and 3 visiblity of both previous combined made it difficult?
The only point they made in their reply was that there was signange on the floor, how do I get around that?
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Hi All,
As expected received a response from the council rejecting the appeal, yet still offering discounted rate - Await your feedback and how best to proceed, as I guess we would literall be stating the same points?
https://imgur.com/a/UM6cmKh
Wait for the Enforcement Notice.
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I guess the question is at adjudication would the fact the sign is somewhat difficult to see be a valid reason, as it could be that it meets the regulations and ownes is on drive to ensure they check even if they have to look right first for oncoming traffice?
attached anotehr two image I am looking to use I guess if i take this further, one showing teh sign as you approach but on teh side, you can see a van basically parrallel to it as it turning to give an idea. A second showing when im on the corner and about to turn, in one way if you look for teh sign you'll see it, ie now that I know, otherwise no i guess.
Letter was dated 10th, would 14th day be today or tomorrow?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi All,
As expected received a response from the council rejecting the appeal, yet still offering discounted rate - Await your feedback and how best to proceed, as I guess we would literall be stating the same points?
https://imgur.com/a/UM6cmKh
The usual Fob-Off letter that seems to be just a cut and paste job. They refer to 'mitigation' yet nothing in your reps is based on mitigation, but their clear failure to indicate a bus lane on the side roads when turning onto the road with the bus lane.
So carry on is my advice. Of course it is your money so if you do decide to cough-up, I understand.
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Hi All,
As expected received a response from the council rejecting the appeal, yet still offering discounted rate - Await your feedback and how best to proceed, as I guess we would literall be stating the same points?
https://imgur.com/a/UM6cmKh
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I've submitted the below reps to start with, focussing on the points Hippocrates mentioned which also cover the warning signs, and have removed all my candid elements :) - Fingers crossed, await their response, at which point can then specifically mention the road, weather and looking right.
"I am dissapointed in having recieved this PCN which is a first, I was unware that there was a bus restirciton in place, having turned from the side road onto the road where the said contravention has allegedly taken place.
1. The video evidence does not show any signage, either warning and/or bus lane signage passed.
2. I put you to strict proof that such signs if any were reflectorised.
3. I put you to strict proof that there is any warning signage at all junctions before entering the said bus lane.
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used at this location has the relevant approval from the VCA.
In light of the above, and should you not be able to address points 2-4, I request that the PCN be cancelled."
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No sign in place on the last GSV view of July 2022, and I suspect one hasn't been added since. Lack of warning here is key to any reps because the bus lane commences at this T-junction. A motorist turning left out of The Oval will rightly have his attention to the right looking out for traffic and an opportunity to turn out.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5PD4N5YFeub4D5oa8
Which is exactly what I’m thinking ie to look right and see the sign that’s on the junction is a tall ask..
So should I be mentioning the following points,
1. I had no idea of the bus lane being there, due to lack of signage. No sign before approaching junction pre warning.
2. Being the evening bad weather/dark would have made it difficult to see any sign in junction combined with the fact looking right first for traffic would make it more difficult.
Also I assume I shouldn’t mentioned or refer to the sign on the junction as Hippocrates stated and play dumb. I turned no sign seen and no sign to suggest bus lane or restriction - although pretty sure they will come back saying there is a sign on the junction.
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Oh no, not that I saw or can remember.. it was oval road that I turned from.
So what should I change on my draft and add in extra? Looking to send today
No sign in place on the last GSV view of July 2022, and I suspect one hasn't been added since. Lack of warning here is key to any reps because the bus lane commences at this T-junction. A motorist turning left out of The Oval will rightly have his attention to the right looking out for traffic and an opportunity to turn out.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5PD4N5YFeub4D5oa8
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Oh no, not that I saw or can remember.. it was oval road that I turned from.
So what should I change on my draft and add in extra? Looking to send today
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Ok so I went past the sign is there see attached also took a video to try show how it would look the .. zoomed out to give an idea of driver
View
https://imgur.com/a/mOPcjki
But was there a warning sign in the road from which you turned? This is the main point here.
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Ok so I went past the sign is there see attached also took a video to try show how it would look the .. zoomed out to give an idea of driver
View
https://imgur.com/a/mOPcjki
[attachment deleted by admin]
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This is far too candid: please do not admit to anything. Forget Google. It is up to the council to prove the signage and/or the warning signage. It would help if we knew there is a warning sign or not.
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3. You haven't stated the exact route you took so how do I know if there is a warning sign or not?
4. They have to prove the signage was there. Many councils do not do so by adducing pictures undated or out of date or possibly taken in Innsbruck.
3. I stated in my reply earlier in this thread to your initial request, as follows "So I came out from The Oval and took a right onto Hackney Road and went into the normal lane for the most of the journey which less then 176 if that, then I entered the bus lane near the end" - Although having re-read this, I actually took a left! and that's 176 yards
4. I assume that signange at the junction is, as I do not see any reason for it not to be, although I can try get confirmation tomorrow from someone that may be in that area.
-- START OF DRAFT
In reference to PCN XXX
I am dissapointed in having recieved this, I genuinely was unware that the bus restirciton was in place,t his is the first time I have been had this contravention.
I had turned off Oval Road onto Hackney Road and had not seen any signange, and as I was travelling on short section of Hackney road, there was no sigange to indicate the bus restriction, although having checked on Googelmaps after receiving this PCN, I can see there is a sign as you turn off Oval road, but it is in a position that would make it difficult to see and furtermore not assisted by inclement weather that evening.
Therefore I ask kindly if this PCN can be cancelled on this occasion adn I have made a note to ensure this contravention doesnt take place agian.
Also in addition to the above I request proof that
1. The sign in question at the junction of Oval road is reflectorised.
2. I put you to strict proof that the camera used at this location has the relevant approval from the VCA.
In light of the above, and should you not be able to address points 1-2, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
-- END OF DRAFT
Await your brutal dissection of the draft, as I assume its long and can be conscise and better worded :O
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Choose no contravention and put this into a pdf
When you say put this into a PDF, as in make a PDF document?
Thank you for the template, much appreciated, I must say very very technical and strict (they wont show me no mercy lol), I was initially planning on just saying, hey really sorry first time, was dark, couldnt see sign, assumed the bus restriction was in morning. lol
Devils advocate, but surely 1 and 3 they'll say signage was there and doesnt have to be in the recording
Also am I not to mention the fact i turned in from X road and missed the sign, or refer to it as being difficult to see (having checked on google maps) as they'll surely come back saying there was signs
1. Pdf document and upload it.
2. Signage unclear and not assisted by inclement weather.
3. You haven't stated the exact route you took so how do I know if there is a warning sign or not?
4. They have to prove the signage was there. Many councils do not do so by adducing pictures undated or out of date or possibly taken in Innsbruck.
Please aimed the draft to include whatever you want to say and then repost it here. Thanks.
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Choose no contravention and put this into a pdf
When you say put this into a PDF, as in make a PDF document?
Thank you for the template, much appreciated, I must say very very technical and strict (they wont show me no mercy lol), I was initially planning on just saying, hey really sorry first time, was dark, couldnt see sign, assumed the bus restriction was in morning. lol
Devils advocate, but surely 1 and 3 they'll say signage was there and doesnt have to be in the recording
Also am I not to mention the fact i turned in from X road and missed the sign, or refer to it as being difficult to see (having checked on google maps) as they'll surely come back saying there was signs
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Try this:
Choose no contravention and put this into a pdf
1. The video evidence does not show any signage, either warning and/or bus lane signage passed.
2. I put you to strict proof that such signs were reflectorised.
3. I out you to strict proof that there is any warning signage at all junctions before entering the said bus lane.
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used at this location has the relevant approval from the VCA.
In light of the above, and should you not be able to address points 2-4, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
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Please do not pay it. This is a protracted process. I will be back tomorrow.
Deffinitly will not be paying, just checked have 2/3 more days *phew*
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Please do not pay it. This is a protracted process. I will be back tomorrow.
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He means the VCA certificate. I will draft a representation* later. Please detail the route taken. IF you turned left, the Traffic Signs Manual recommends warning signage. Indeed, cases have been won on this issue for years.
*Challenge. The formal stuff starts when the Enforcement Notice is received.
Thank you really appreciate that - Fingers crossed as I was actually going to pay this one but thought let me see what advice if any from this forum and am I glad I did!
So I came out from The Oval and took a right onto Hackney Road and went into the normal lane for the most of the journey which less then 176 if that, then I entered the bus lane near the end.. - I do not see any warning signage, but as if its recommended I guess doesn't mean its mandatory.
P.s not sure or never heard of this VCA Certificate.,
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He means the VCA certificate. I will draft a representation* later. Please detail the route taken. IF you turned left, the Traffic Signs Manual recommends warning signage. Indeed, cases have been won on this issue for years.
*Challenge. The formal stuff starts when the Enforcement Notice is received.
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Oh wow! I've never saw that sign, and can see why its difficult to see, as one as you get to that point, you first look right for traffic to give you way, so by the time you've turned that signs long gone, also it was dark that evening, so further would have not helped.
When you say something on the bus lane camera status - What do you mean, ie on the pole it self? As I was driving before I entered into teh bus lane I tried to observe any signage similar to the one in the picture on any other points but there were none.
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It's Tower Hamlets.
The video doesn't help except to show it was dark.
There is a bus lane sign right by the the turn out of The Oval but no advance sign warning of a bus lane and we've seen appeals won on left turns into signage that you can't reasonably see as not facing you. That's of signage on Google Maps though.
There may also be something on bus lane camera status.
(https://i.imgur.com/SsCEx9G.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/iTqW0SF.gif)
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Hi All,
I'm trying my luck here as it's a day or two left and I believe there are no solid ground to appeal this, I thought the timings were outside of the times for bus only but in fact it wasn't :(
Unfortunately from the road (oval st) I turned off onto the main road (hackney road), from that section of the main road till the end (short section) there were no bus signs (they are placed further down or before on the road).
Could I say it is my first time and that there was no signs so the assumption was it was only a morning bus lane,
See attached - https://imgur.com/a/PpVcM4D