Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Kempes on December 10, 2024, 09:56:21 am
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After replying to @gt3, I took the time to read through the whole thread. It would seem H&F is on a roll issuing PCNs here!
We have had enquiries from
@Kempes (the OP) , @Raj (who has made helpful contributions to the discussion), @Fisherman007 , @GGX , @Wolfe , and @Fer360cs .
Rather than labour splitting the muddle of this thread (as each case progresses the muddle will become worse!), to ensure each gets the best advice, could I ask each of you to start your own thread in the time-honoured fashion
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
with all sides of the PCN (redact only yr name & address)'
any correspondence so far with H&F,
the video,
and the GSV link to the location.
This thread will be locked.
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OP, will you pl focus on the signage, all of the signage, at the entrance to the road as I posted a few days ago.
Pl just spend a few minutes piecing this together and then just draw a simple diagram.
As I see it from the various snippets of photos and GSV, the following are situated at the entrance:
A Controlled Zone sign(which relates to parking). This is composite(has wording other than just the prescribed minimum of Controlled Zone) but not an associated late;
One-way street sign;
A speed limit sign;
A restricted access for vehicles over a prescribed weight sign with several very detailed associated plates;
A no entry for vehicular traffic sign, with associated late.
And it appears a Red Route Clearway ends sign.
And a driver is supposed to take all this in at 40mph!
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I received a PCN for this today, went through on 28/12/24 and notice dated 06/01/25. I also live nowhere near here and was my first time driving on this road.
Have sent an email to the address shared earlier, but considering that the reduced penalty charge ends on Friday because the letter took nearly a week to get here, and the slow response mentioned, my hopes aren't exactly high. Any ideas/advice appreciated.
Please start your own thread, as otherwise we shall get muddled with you and the OP of this thread.
See
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
Please start your thread with a brief description of what happened, and post up there all sides of the PCN (redact only yr name & address), a copy of your e-mail to the Council (did you get any sort of automated receipt) and the GSV link to the location. By all means include a link to this thread there.
Depending on what you wrote, I wouldn't be quite so gloomy as Incandescent (H&F have been known to cancel, if rarely) but you need to be prepared to receive a rejection. I think an adjudicator might well be sympathetic, but let's see how H&F respond to your reps.
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I received a PCN for this today, went through on 28/12/24 and notice dated 06/01/25. I also live nowhere near here and was my first time driving on this road.
Have sent an email to the address shared earlier, but considering that the reduced penalty charge ends on Friday because the letter took nearly a week to get here, and the slow response mentioned, my hopes aren't exactly high. Any ideas/advice appreciated.
If you look here, you'll see that signage is totally inadequate because there is no advance warning sign on the A4. The only way to get an unbiased judgment is to take them to London Tribunals. This means risking the full penalty. The case here is strong, but until we see a win here, it is all in the lap of the gods.
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I received a PCN for this today, went through on 28/12/24 and notice dated 06/01/25. I also live nowhere near here and was my first time driving on this road.
Have sent an email to the address shared earlier, but considering that the reduced penalty charge ends on Friday because the letter took nearly a week to get here, and the slow response mentioned, my hopes aren't exactly high. Any ideas/advice appreciated.
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@Fer360cs
So seems like you have good few points to appeal. Good luck with it!
I am still not sure why I haven’t received my PCN yet as my drive on 27th was my only contravention too. Guess I have to contact the council to confirm if my vehicle has any existing PCNs.
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Very true! The sinage does not mention the road name, so could mean any road to the left.
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@Fer360cs
Is this your first entry on this road since the last week of nov? If yes then
On the short clip of the contravention, does it show your car pause or stop at the foot of the entrance before entering the road? If yes this I guess you have a decent chance of appealing.
Your primary point of appeal would be
1) could not reverse on to the a4 due to traffic (breaking the rule 201 of the traffic code)
2) lack of warning signs on the A4.
Note - you would need to prove that the temp warning signs on the A4 before the Rivercourt road were switched off.
I meant this sign in the pic below -
That sign is totally wrong. The restriction is NO access ! Anybody seeing this would assume it is perfectly OK to turn in. This makes any representations even stronger, as it does not reflect the traffic order.
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Thanks for the info. It's the only time I've driven on Rivercourt Road. The short one second video only starts after my front wheel already pass the double dash give way lines and ends before my rear wheel reach the said lines. It does not show the car before the line so cant prove if I stopped before crossing the line. The video shows the A4 at the time was busy and fast flowing, thanks for point out the highway code reference wrt to reversing from a minor road onto a major road. I cannot recall seeing any warning sign before the junction. As GSV etc are not up to date WRT to my PCN my daughter did a video of the A4 from Hogarth Roundabout to Rivercourt Road on the 9 Jan 2025, no warning signs were seen on the A4 in the video.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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@Fer360cs
Is this your first entry on this road since the last week of nov? If yes then
On the short clip of the contravention, does it show your car pause or stop at the foot of the entrance before entering the road? If yes this I guess you have a decent chance of appealing.
Your primary point of appeal would be
1) could not reverse on to the a4 due to traffic (breaking the rule 201 of the traffic code)
2) lack of warning signs on the A4.
Note - you would need to prove that the temp warning signs on the A4 before the Rivercourt road were switched off.
I meant this sign in the pic below -
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Raj, FYI, I noticed the restriction too late and had to continue through the restriction as it was unsafe to do anything else! Date of offence 27/12/24 and got a PCN dated 06/01/25. I'm from out of the area. There was no warning before turning off the busy A4!
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the trial period ended sometime around mid of dec 2024 if i am not mistaken. i have a feeling that vehicles driven on this road more than once since the trial period are automatically being issued PCNs. i drove on this road once on 27th of dec and till date i havent received the PCN. so given the situation, my only though would be to raise an appeal stating you havent received the initial warning letter and as such you are unaware of the new restrictions. but again this is not a strong argument.
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2) The signage must be made clear on the A4 at least 200 yards before the turning onto Rivercourt Road. If you have placed a sign at the mouth of the road, then it is impossible to read as drivers have to quickly leave the A4 and there is no time to read any signs.
Normally we would ask you to start your own thread, but you can follow this one.
However, are you prepared to take H & F to London Tribunals on the A4 advance signage issue ?
Until somebody does this, it is pointless fulminating here; they need their hands holding to the fire, or they'll just carry on serving PCNs. If you are prepared to go to London Tribunals, please start your own thread. Somebody on here may assist you at LT with your appeal. However, first you have to submit reps to H&F before you can appeal at LT.
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Hi All,
Has anyone successfully challenged this 52M PCN for Rivercourt Rd? I got the PCN recently for driving onto the road from the A4 just before New Year's. I have, like many of you, used this road from the A4 for a number of years.
It's completely ridiculous that they penalise first time offenders, especially for a commonly used road. I am totally ok with residents wanting this new rule, but the council have a duty to communicate the change fairly first through warning letters. I did not receive any warning letter.
I have emailed the address that Raj sent: enquiries@lbhfparking.com stating the following points, but no one has replied to me yet (it's been 4 working days now):
1) https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/news/2024/11/making-rivercourt-road-safer
^ This article does not clearly state when the trial begins nor the dates for the grace period.
2) The signage must be made clear on the A4 at least 200 yards before the turning onto Rivercourt Road. If you have placed a sign at the mouth of the road, then it is impossible to read as drivers have to quickly leave the A4 and there is no time to read any signs.
3) Why was I not given a warning letter? I have had similar occurrences in the past in other London Boroughs and a warning letter was always provided first.
Did you guys end up biting the bullet and paying the fine, or have you challenged it formally through the PCN payment link?
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this is the email i used- enquiries@lbhfparking.com. they are pretty fast in replying.
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Hi GGX,
yes it was a single line reply. rest is the address of the sender. tell me something, how many times have you been on that road since the start of dec 2024? i have a feeling that your vehicle was recorded more than once hence you received the PCN. but i think you could raise an informal appeal stating you havent received the warning letter i suppose.
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Hi Raj,
Yes I received a PCN on 4.1.25, not a warning letter.
It's dated 3.1.25, the alleged offence was 21.12.24
I haven't yet responded so I'm wondering if you contacted the LBHF parking services team direct (if so, by phone/email/ who?) or responded using the PCN Grounds for Representations?
Thanks for sharing the email - only the first sentence of their reply appears in the box- is this intentional?
Thanks again - really appreciate your help!
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If you all received PCNs chances are I will get one too. My contravention date was on 27th dec. council did say that it would take about couple of weeks for the pcns to be sent as they have to contact DVLA for reg address .
Below is the communication I received from the council
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Good Afternoon
Thank you for your email
Please note that Warning Notices are being issued for the first offense to all vehicles without a permit to enter this road.
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Did you receive 52M pcn or a warning letter? I was told that first timers will let off with a warning .
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I've just found a LBHF news item on their official website about this new road layout/rule for Rivercourt Road.
"... Anyone travelling along Rivercourt Road from outside the borough without a permit will receive a warning during the first weeks of the trial. Following a grace period of three weeks, they will receive a fine (a Penalty Charge Notice)..."
so surely those of us caught out in Dec/Jan are within their completely woolly and defined "first weeks of the trial"?
And what's the status of a trial like this?
Any thoughts/advice?
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I've received a PCN today from LBHF - for taking the left turn into Rivercourt Road just before Christmas.
I've spent years taking this left turn off the A4 but now live outside the area so I had no idea the rules had changed, plus there was no time/distance to read any new road signs placed right at the entrance to the road, plus all the usual heavy traffic on the A4 right behind me would have meant no safe option to change my decision even if I'd been aware of this rule change...
It all seems pretty unfair and I should say that I'm fine with coughing up the PCN fine when it is fair!
I was interested to see that Raj was let off by LBHF as a "first time offender".
Do you have any other info you can share here as I'd be in the same boat?
Many thanks.
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I was lucky enough to receive 2 PCN’s for Rivercourt Road today - a road I have used twice a week for the last 6/7 years and totally unaware that I cannot use that road any longer - chances of getting any leniency from H&F councils?
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contacted Hammersmith council on this and they have come back stating all the first time offenders will initially be sent a warning letter.
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hello @Kempes, wondering if you ended up paying the PCN or did you contest?
unfortunately i had to enter the same road yesterday, had no option to reverse as its the A4 and was so busy. i am sure i will get the PCN too but i already prepared my case with video footage off my dashcams.
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Sorry, no good without some hard data, so please read this and update your post accordingly.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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Sorry, no good without some hard data, so please read this and update your post accordingly.
Here is the GSV August 2024 view of Rivercourt Road from the A4 showing no signs barring motor vehicles: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DBCBRuE2nPTBbEpN7
and here's the other end showing No Entry signs
https://maps.app.goo.gl/DBCBRuE2nPTBbEpN7
So this looks like a new restriction, but until you post up the PCN, no meaningful advice can be given.
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Hi, I just received a PCN (10/12/24) for turning into Rivercourt Road Hammersmith - 52M - failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle.
It's a route I've taken regularly and there's no indication on the notice as to why my vehicle suddenly doesn't comply with the rules for that road.
Anyone else had similar or can shed light on what's happening here?
Have contacted LBH&F for clarification but it'd be quicker and more reliable getting a response via a seance.