Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: El-Roi on December 08, 2024, 09:24:24 am
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I to am wondering why the OP did not attend and why they didn't bother with a letter from the centre 🤔
Join the club.
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I to am wondering why the OP did not attend and why they didn't bother with a letter from the centre 🤔
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So how did Ivan and not the OP as well attend this?
Own goal after all we said.
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fx_oJSx1gVTwcpyAa9VK_balfuXVSpGL/view).
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@El-Roi
Were you able to get a tribunal hearing?
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Thanks
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Just something you could show to the adjudicator maybe.
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Thanks posting this. Appreciated.
That's the time on the website but as you will appreciate the website is not always up to date.
Receiptants were already in the hall and they had already started distribution & serving when I arrived.
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Plus hot food too... Says 5pm but you were there only a bit before.
(https://i.imgur.com/0IG5Fk4.png)
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Thanks
Appeal Lodged with FOAM ITPT
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They want a fight over this and this zero tolerance attitude is wholly wrong under the law given loading is an exemption to the contravention. It is not a no stopping zone.
You need to register an appeal with the tribunal and hopefully you can opt for a telephone hearing as you need to tell the adjudicator you were engaged in exempt activity and there were no restriction on loading on Sunday.
I still think a statement from the organiser would have helped as the council could then have been held to have dismissed it (if they did).
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For convenience:
(https://i.ibb.co/ccmZLqGq/20250410-Notice-of-Rejection-of-Formal-Representation-MW92094257-dd-10-04-25-FTLA-Redact.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DhfckWk)
Words fail me!!!
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Link to NoR received
https://ibb.co/8DhfckWk
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Thanks, HCA. Your response was brilliant.
After rethinking, I believe it’s both appropriate and necessary.
Given the way they are acting, this type of response seems to be the only language they will understand. I used your draft and reiterated that this was a free charitable donation, so no supporting documentation exists.
I hope this is okay and gets the message across effectively.
This is what I intend to send over—let me know if it works.
Thank you for your email dated 26 March 2025.
I believe that the authority's misunderstanding of the law should not be imposed on keepers and drivers conducting their legitimate business.
I was delivering free home-cooked food for the homeless, and as this was a charitable donation, there is no associated documentation such as an invoice or delivery note or thank you note etc.
Please process my representations as submitted. If you choose to reject them, an adjudicator will have the opportunity to thoroughly examine the matter and assess the actions and decision-making within your organisation."
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Whatever you feel comfortable with.
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Thanks, HCA. Brilliant email response as always!
Just a quick check—do you think your no-nonsense response might put their backs up and make them say, “Let’s go to the independent adjudicator”?
I was just being sarcastic, not getting worked up or playing along with their ridiculous game and bullying tactics. It’s clear they realized their initial rejection was wrong and were just talking nonsense—now they’re trying it on again.
I’ll reply to the email as per your draft and maybe just add that this is a donation (free of charge), so there is no associated invoice or delivery note.
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OP, you posted the following before (I assume) you knew anything about the intricacies of process and what we sometimes find here which is that history gets rewritten by OPs in light of the exceptions and exemptions which we dangle in their way:
It was my first time dropping off food. I was on my own. I did two trips from my car to the centre. There was a bit of delay when I went in initially as they were just about to start sharing and the centre was already full with homeless people. They also transferred the hot food to their own container which took some time. They were expecting me but the time wasn’t confirmed. We had a window to drop off the food during which they can make the re-distribution We were making a personal voluntary contribution. We bought discounted and yellow sticker items from the supermarket ( some receipts available) friends and family donated items and the rest was home-made food. There was no paperwork / invoice as it was a personal /family gift donation because of the good work The centre was are doing. Majority of the homeless people that hang around the high street go there to get hot food. As a family we regularly buy discounted / yellow sticker items to a give to Homeless individuals including AMAT Residents in Chatham, guys hanging around in the town centre or supermarket entrances begging, struggling parents, single parents, elderly or struggling neighbours who have lost their Job loss or sick etc. It’s just helping the community. I have old text message offering food to struggling people and neighbours.
There's only one credible story here, and it's yours.
Carry on, in which regard I refer to my last post.
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Duplicate post
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I wasn't sure from the OP's account whether he was just delivering food to the church or making a donation of food.
I see in reply #26 that the OP seems to be clearly saying that he was making a donation and not simply delivering.
I think it would be unreasonable of the LA to expect an invoice or any other sort of paperwork to support a donation. People don't make charitable donations in the expectation of getting a receipt or some sort of written recognition.
Unfortunately the OP's representations don't make it clear that he was donating and not merely delivering. I suspect the LA understands this to be some sort of normal delivery of goods purchased specifically for delivery to the church and that it can be evidenced by paperwork.
Does the OP need to spell out that it was a donation for which there is - obviously - no supporting documentation?
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People do of course invent stuff to try and get out of PCNs but the idea that someone would fabricate a food delivery for the homeless to a church hall at Christmas really is Medway taking the mick.
If they'd asked nicely I expect you can produce an email and/or a witness statement from the organiser, which I guess we should have anticipated. You still can of course at this stage if you wish.
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EDIT, crossed with HCA
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Pepipoo had an emoji for hitting head on brick wall, but this >:( will have to do.
AS I said much earlier, what muppets are working for Medway. Rant over (must confess to a psrticular interest in this location - I once lived on Clover Street - had to move when Chatham Council had a CPO and demolished the houses).
Keep calm and carry on - you have a v.good case. It might be worth asking Emmaus for a note on headed paper along the lines of To whom it may concern. We confirm that Nn was delivering large and bulky items donated to our Food Bank at the above address. (signed) XYZ.
I'd go with HCA's advice and keep any letter you may obtain in reserve.
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I'd respond as follows:
Thank you for your email dated 26 March.
I think that the authority's misunderstanding of the law should not be visited upon keepers and drivers going about their legitimate business. Please deal with my representations as submitted and if you reject then we will let an adjudicator discover exactly what's what within your organisation.
Regards,
***
Do not play their stupid, ignorant and bullying game, you'll get all het up, as you are now.
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Please, I need some advice on how to respond to this email sent on 26th March 2025 requesting for delivery Invoice on a letter-headed paper regarding this PCN.
I do not have a letter-headed invoice. I was delivering cooked food free of charge to a church that was feeding the homeless, as stated in my appeal and on this forum. I am confused that they are asking for a delivery invoice now. I am confused as to how or where I can get an invoice for free home cooked food for the homeless.
Thanks in advance for your input
Date: 26th March 2025
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE: MW92094257
I refer to your recent appeal regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.
To enable this matter to be given further consideration please forward a copy of the delivery note/invoice in respect of the delivery/collection of goods you state you were making on the day in question, failing this a company headed letter would be accepted.
Please submit this documentation to the Parking Section of Medway Council at the above address within 7 days of the date of this letter in order to prevent further action being taken. If however you are not able to provide this proof I would ask you to make arrangements for payment of the outstanding amount due within 14 days of the date of this letter.
The rejection is indeed correct in that without being seen to be unloading or loading in the given observation period as this is zero tolerance area outside of the loading times, you would need to be seen as it is required to be continuous.
Please note the Parking Office has the facility to accept payments by Credit/Debit/Switch/Delta cards on 01634 332266 or by using the automatic payments system on 01634 334477, or pay online at www.medway.gov.uk
Yours sincerely,
G.GX
Medway Council
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Please can someone confirm the last day of submission? I don't want to miss it.
I make it the 12th Feb ( 28 days from date served 15.01.25 ; posting date 13.01.25 served 2nd working day after posting).
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For when this comes up in the future, it's 28 days beginning with the date of service.
So:
13/01/2025 = Monday = Date of NTO and presumed date of posting
15/01/2025 = Wednesday = 2nd working day after posting = deemed date of service = day 1 of 28 day relevant period
11/02/2025 = Tuesday = day 28 of 28 day relevant period
If you submitted today then you will be on the last day but within time.
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Thanks.
Formal Representation made online.
Acceptance page printed and saved on laptop
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The NTO says you can make representations at:
https://www.medway.gov.uk/appealpcn
I would do that. Note that they wrongly also call it an appeal - appeals are to the tribunal. You are at formal representation stage.
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Thanks all for your contributions and help in drafting the representation.
As advised I would go with HC Andersen's version and add in the line by Stamfordman reiterating I was unloading bulky food items.
Please can someone confirm the last day of submission? I don't want to miss it.
I make it the 12th Feb ( 28 days from date served 15.01.25 ; posting date 13.01.25 served 2nd working day after posting).
I called Medway parking dept; the lady said I can email my representation.
Do I need to add the declaration at the end of email representation and sign or do representation as a letter and attach it to the email.
Do I have to sign the NTO & scan & attach it to the email or would a signed letter with the declaration be sufficient?
Sorry never done this before. Apologies if my questions are silly.
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Go with Mr Anderson's - I would add in
You are correct in that I was parked within an area which prohibits waiting 24/7 , however, loading is permitted(and therefore not mitigation but a legal exemption). I repeat - I was unloading bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so.
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Should work.
I would in preference go back to their rejection.
Dear Sir,
PCN ******* Date of Contravention Sunday 24 November 2024
I am making formal representations on the grounds of 'Contravention did not occur'.
The material facts accepted and stated by the authority in their rejection of my previous representations are as follows:
The date of issue of the PCN was a Sunday;
You accept that I was unloading;
You state that 'The entry signs in Clover Street clearly state that this is a 'Restricted Zone at any Time' and 'No Loading' on Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm.
And then for some inexplicable reason you rejected my representations on the basis that 'Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime. As your vehicle was parked in Clover Street on 24/11/2024, your vehicle was correctly issued a Penalty Charge Notice.'.
You are correct in that I was parked within an area which prohibits waiting 24/7 , however, loading is permitted(and therefore not mitigation but a legal exemption).
The issue here is the authority's misapplication of the law (all material evidence being common ground) and were this to continue then such a decision would be considered frivolous and risk the authority being subject to a costs award at adjudication.
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This will do I think. Can't think of anything else to say.
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I am making representations that the contravention 01 – Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - did not occur owing to the exemption of loading (unloading in this case).
The restricted parking zone does not have a no-loading restriction at any time on Sunday, and I was engaged in the process of unloading on Sunday 24 November 2024.
You issued me with a contravention code 01 which has the exemption of loading.
I repeat - I was unloading bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so. This was during a time when loading is allowed in the zone.
As the contravention did not occur I expect you to cancel this PCN and look forward this time to your confirmation.
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NTO
Help please.
Thanks
Please repost page 1 of the NtO the right way up, and only redact yr name & addresss.
The experts here are pretty much united in believing you have an excellent case.
As for your reps against the NtO, subject to the suggestions of others, I would take your challenge against the PCN as the base of your reps (quoted below) and incorporate some of the points others have made earlier in this thread. Post you revoised draft here for commment before sending, but do not miss deadline.
Remember, either your wife signs, in which case you change 'I' to my husband throughout, or you must enclose a letter of authority from her.
Appeal Representations against PCN MW912094257 Issued 24th November 2024 - Clover Street Chatham ME4 4DE
As the driver at the time iam making these representations on behalf of my wife, the registered owner, and enclose a letter of authority to do so.
I am challenging making these reps against the Notice to Ownerthe PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in the exempt activity of unloading.
On the day in question I was delivering bulky food items to the Emmaus Church Centre on Clover
Street ME4 4DE Chatham and therefore there was no contravention. Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first delivery.
I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so. Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload all the food items.
I assume this were on either side of the PCN being issued - there was a PCN on my vehicle when I finally returned to my vehicle after my last trip from the ECC but was blown away in the extreme weather. In any event, this doesn't bear upon my circumstances or representations.
Please note that this food delivery donation will be a semi-regular activity depending upon availability. I will be making future trips to delivery our personal food donation to The Emmaus Church Centre (TECC).
See attached links confirming the good cause carried out by the ECC in which I was part of and making a delivery.
https://emmaus.org.uk/about-us/ - Emmaus supports more than 850 people who have experienced homelessness. We provide a home, training and work opportunities as part of a
https://www.helpingthehomeless.org.uk/medway
I was delivering; a vehicle was essential; I parked as near to the church as possible and the activity took only as long as necessary in the circumstances to carry out this good cause; and trust you'll agree the exemption applies. Consequently, the exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.
I look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.
EDIT - post crossed with Stamfordman.
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If no one else does it I should be able to do it tomorrow.
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NTO
Help please.
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Please post up of the NtO, redacting only yr name & address.
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NTO received dated 13.01.24
Need help in drafting the formal challenge.
Grateful for your assistance.
Thanks in advance
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I would certainly go on with this. The exemption is there for this kind of situation. And they wouldn't want a story about a heartless authority penalising a person delivering food to the homeless to appear in the local paper...
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"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime She seems to be inferring that the type of vehicle might also be a contributing factor i.e. - A car as opposed to a van. They fail to take into consideration the sign that Sunday is exempt. It is like they cannot interpret / see the sign correctly. Or the week is Monday to Saturday and Sunday doesn't exist.
2As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly. If you are loading bulky items you will not stand by your car and it will magically get to where it is to be delivered.
To be honest not sure if I will go there again because of this PCN and the rejection. this might turn out to be a very expensive donation. That was my first trip / donation. I don't know the people who are in charge that will be in a position to do a letter and they might be reluctant that I have only been there once and asking them a favour to write a letter is embarrassing. Also they might not want to put anything down on paper. I don't know what their policy is.
It means anytime I go there to deliver food I am going to get a PCN and the council will not understand if it is outside the restriction hours or not or whether it is Sunday. I don't have that type of money in addition to the time and money spent making the donation. It's really sad.
What are my chance of success without a letter /note from the centre?
I just need to know as the 14 days discount period is up tomorrow before midnight or the day after.
"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime". That's the prohibition conveyed by the Double Yellow Lines painted on the carriageway. The DYLs apply 24x365.
However stopping solely to load or unload is permitted outside of the restricted hours of Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm and permitted all day on Sunday as stated on the time-plate on the sign. The 'No Loading' restriction is only part time.
I agree, the Notice of Rejection does read as if only purpose built vans are allowed to load/unload. Or they are just ignoring the fact it was a Sunday.
You were stopped to unload a food delivery on a Sunday, a delivery that had additionally to be decanted into the thermos containers used by the church's kitchen, so provided that's all you were doing then it was permitted.
So I would fight this all the way as it is plainly unjust and justice should prevail.
It's not entirely necessary to get something in writing from the church. However doing so might strengthen your hand and make things easier with the Adjudicator. The Adjudicator will make a judgement based on the balance of probability. You being a credible witness should be enough.
If you prevail with the Adjudicator then you will have to pay zero. If the Adjudicator doesn't buy your story then the bill will be £70. BTW I don't agree with the double or quits, my opinion is that the penalty should be consistent and national, but such is what Parliament decided.
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Reading this thread it is clear that your case for cancellation of the PCN is very strong.
You need to be aware that councils ruthlessly game the system to maximise the cash flow. One of the ways they do this is to refuse virtually all informal reps, knowing that if they do this, over 95% of people then cough-up the money.
Representations against Notices to Owner, the next stage, are looked at a bit more closely because at this stage the discount option has gone, and they know that if they refuse these, the appellant will take them to adjudication, because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs. Many councils even re-offer the discount at the NtO stage, but never publish this. A council has costs for an adjudication, being the fee, and also the task of preparing an evidence pack for the adjudication. The appellant has no fee to pay, just the PCN penalty if the case is lost.
Of course it is the vehicle owner as per the V5 Registration Certificate for the car that has responsibility for paying or appealing a PCN, so whether to proceed further now is their decision.
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Next time you visit the Church, might it be possible to ask someone in the food for homeless team or the priest or pastor to write a note thanking you or at least acknowledging your donation of food at approx 16:19 on Sunday 24th Nov 2024? Including food that had to be decanted into the Church's food containers.
Whilst it might not be strictly necessary for a formal challenge against the NTO, when it arrives, or a subsequent appeal to the Adjudicator such a note or receipt might make it a little easier.
They just don't seem to accept or understand that because you were unloading, the food into the Church from your car, you were engaged in an activity which is permitted on a Sunday (or any other time outside the controlled hours on Mon to Sat). Possibly because you used a car and not a van.
"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime She seems to be inferring that the type of vehicle might also be a contributing factor i.e. - A car as opposed to a van. They fail to take into consideration the sign that Sunday is exempt. It is like they cannot interpret / see the sign correctly. Or the week is Monday to Saturday and Sunday doesn't exist.
2As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly. If you are loading bulky items you will not stand by your car and it will magically get to where it is to be delivered.
To be honest not sure if I will go there again because of this PCN and the rejection. this might turn out to be a very expensive donation. That was my first trip / donation. I don't know the people who are in charge that will be in a position to do a letter and they might be reluctant that I have only been there once and asking them a favour to write a letter is embarrassing. Also they might not want to put anything down on paper. I don't know what their policy is.
It means anytime I go there to deliver food I am going to get a PCN and the council will not understand if it is outside the restriction hours or not or whether it is Sunday. I don't have that type of money in addition to the time and money spent making the donation. It's really sad.
What are my chance of success without a letter /note from the centre?
I just need to know as the 14 days discount period is up tomorrow before midnight or the day after.
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Next time you visit the Church, might it be possible to ask someone in the food for homeless team or the priest or pastor to write a note thanking you or at least acknowledging your donation of food at approx 16:19 on Sunday 24th Nov 2024? Including food that had to be decanted into the Church's food containers.
Whilst it might not be strictly necessary for a formal challenge against the NTO, when it arrives, or a subsequent appeal to the Adjudicator such a note or receipt might make it a little easier.
They just don't seem to accept or understand that because you were unloading, the food into the Church from your car, you were engaged in an activity which is permitted on a Sunday (or any other time outside the controlled hours on Mon to Sat). Possibly because you used a car and not a van.
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Medway 1 Homeless 0
But it's only half-time and manager team talk says it's a game of two halves.
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Although you have stated that you were taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so as some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers, I am unfortunately unable to accept this as mitigating circumstances because your vehicle was parked in a 'Restricted Zone At Any Time' area. Your vehicle was not exempt, therefore a Penalty Charge Notice was enforced by Medway Council.
What an a**e. Disgraceful and brings the council into disrepute.
Carry on and let your sister make reps against the NTO.
Now that we know their, shall we say, ignorance of the law we can tailor the formal reps accordingly.
The actual contravention as stated on the PCN:
Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Which means in law that there weren't any active 'mo loading' restrictions at the time because if there were then the mandatory contravention grounds would be.
02 - Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force.
And because delivering* is an exemption from a no waiting restriction (NOT mitigation but an exemption) then your argument must be considered.
But it wasn't, it was regarded as mitigation and to make things worse for the council the wrong legal test was applied anyway!
*- delivering, collecting, unloading, loading are synonymous expressions regarding this activity e.g. how could you load something that hasn't been collected and if you unloaded without delivering then the pavement would be knee-deep in goods!
It is irrelevant for your purposes whether the 'no waiting' restriction was conveyed by yellow lines with a traffic sign, yellow lines in a controlled zone or even no yellow lines in a Restricted Parking zone, the restriction is the same: no waiting. And unloading/delivering is permitted and an exempt activity, not some wishy-washy mitigation.
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Not sure they understand that 24/11/2024 was a Sunday?
I don't often say you should carry on, but here I most definitely would continue .
They keep talking about 'mitigation' and 'discretion' - as HCA said, you had a statutory exemption. Muppets >:(
See what others say.
Next stage: NtO - your sister must authorise you to reply, or she replies in her name.
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"The entry signs in Clover Street clearly state that this is a 'Restricted Zone at any Time' and 'No Loading' on Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm. Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime. As your vehicle was parked in Clover Street on 24/11/2024, your vehicle was correctly issued a Penalty Charge Notice."
Am I reading the rejection notice correctly? Are the Council trying to claim that Loading is allowed outside the restricted hours but Unloading is never allowed?
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@H C Andersen
@stamfordman
Below is the appeal that was sent
Appeal against PCN MW912094257 Issued 24th November 2024 - Clover Street Chatham ME4 4DE
I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in the exempt activity of unloading.
On the day in question I was delivering bulky food items to the Emmaus Church Centre on Clover
Street ME4 4DE Chatham and therefore there was no contravention. Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first delivery.
I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so. Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload all the food items.
I assume this were on either side of the PCN being issued - there was a PCN on my vehicle when I finally returned to my vehicle after my last trip from the ECC but was blown away in the extreme weather. In any event, this doesn't bear upon my circumstances or representations.
Please note that this food delivery donation will be a semi-regular activity depending upon availability. I will be making future trips to delivery our personal food donation to The Emmaus Church Centre (TECC).
See attached links confirming the good cause carried out by the ECC in which I was part of and making a delivery.
https://emmaus.org.uk/about-us/ - Emmaus supports more than 850 people who have experienced homelessness. We provide a home, training and work opportunities as part of a
https://www.helpingthehomeless.org.uk/medway
I was delivering; a vehicle was essential; I parked as near to the church as possible and the activity took only as long as necessary in the circumstances to carry out this good cause; and trust you'll agree the exemption applies. Consequently, the exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.
I look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.
Yours faithfully
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@H C Andersen @Standfordman
Received appeal rejection letter below dated 13th December to my appeal sent 10th December. Very quick rejection reply. Just saw it.
Any advice on what to do next. Should I pay or wait for notice to owner and appeal and if necessary take it to the Tribunal.
Grateful for Advise from the experts on the next step / action. What are the chances of winning if it goes up to the tribunal?
Parking Services
Gun Wharf
Dock Road
Chatham
Kent
ME4 4TR
13th December 2024
Dear xxxxx
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE: MW92094257
I refer to your recent appeal regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.
In exercising our discretion to cancel a penalty charge notice, the circumstances detailed in your representations have been considered and all reasons for appeal have been taken into consideration. However, on this occasion I cannot find any compelling grounds in which to do so.
Although you have stated that you were taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so as some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers, I am unfortunately unable to accept this as mitigating circumstances because your vehicle was parked in a 'Restricted Zone At Any Time' area. Your vehicle was not exempt, therefore a Penalty Charge Notice was enforced by Medway Council.
The entry signs in Clover Street clearly state that this is a 'Restricted Zone at any Time' and 'No Loading' on Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm. Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime. As your vehicle was parked in Clover Street on 24/11/2024, your vehicle was correctly issued a Penalty Charge Notice.
As much as I can appreciate the that the situation was helping others in need, I am unable to cancel the PCN on this basis as all drivers must ensure that their vehicle is parked legally and a good cause does not constitute parking illegally. As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly.
I must advise that it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure all parking restrictions are adhered to before leaving the vehicle parked.
As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, no observation period is required to any vehicle parked in an 'at all times zone' within a zero tolerance area. However, I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no loading/unloading in the time observed.
Please find attached a copy of the link to our website in order for you to view the photographic evidence that endorses the fact that the Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued. In order to access this page you will require your vehicle registration and penalty charge number. http://www.medway.gov.uk/parkingandtransport/parkingticketsandfines.aspx
On appraisal of the evidence there are insufficient grounds for waiving the Penalty Charge Notice on this occasion. I would therefore ask you to make payment of £35.00 within 14 days of the date of this letter to take advantage of the discount of 50% available for early payment of the Penalty Charge Notice. Failure to pay within the discounted period will result in the Penalty Charge Notice being enforced at its full value of £70.00.
Should you wish to appeal further a `Notice to Owner` will be sent to the owner/keeper of the vehicle at which stage the Penalty Charge Notice will stand at £70.00. Full details of how to appeal will be given on the `Notice to Owner`’. If you disagree with the council’s decision at the Notice To Owner stage you can appeal to the independent adjudicator. You can appeal by visiting the tribunal’s website: www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/appeal
Please note the Parking Office has the facility to accept payments by Credit/Debit/Switch/Delta cards by using the automatic payments system on 01634 334477, or pay online at www.medway.gov.uk
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No need to make meal of this - it's a parking PCN not an episode of Perry Mason.
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Please stop dancing on the head of a pin with this.
You crack me up. I couldn’t stop laughing
You were engaged in an exempt activity = it is as if the waiting restriction did not exist.
You don't have to apologise, ask for forgiveness, plea for clemency: according to your account you were absolutely entitled to be parked where you were. And you could go back again, and again and again. Providing it's on a Sunday!
I like your use of words.
That’s right Sunday or After 5 pm Monday to Saturday.
One modification to my draft, you saw the PCN but it blew away before it could be examined. A minor change.
Thanks. Amended
Please can you check my final draft and amend accordingly if needed. Cheers
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Thanks for all your input and drafts.
Please find below a draft of the appeal which I intend to send tonight.
Please can you check and comment and let me know if any amendment is needed.
Should I mention my conversation with the CEO later informing him I was delivering / unloading food.
Many thanks
Appeal against PCN MW912094257 issued 24th November 2024 - Clover Street Chatham ME4 4DE 24
I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in the exempt activity of unloading.
On the day in question I was delivering bulky food items to the Emmaus Church Centre on Clover
Street ME4 4DE Chatham and therefore there was no contravention.
Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first delivery.
I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so.
Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload all the food items.
I assume this were on either side of the PCN being issued -I saw the PCN when I finally returned to my car but it was blown away in the extreme weather before I had the opportunity to remove it from the windscreen. In any event, this doesn't bear upon my circumstances or representations.
Please note that this food delivery donation will be a semi-regular activity depending upon availability. I will be making future trips to delivery our personal food donation to The Emmaus Church Centre.
I was delivering, a vehicle was essential, I parked as near to the church as possible and the activity took only as long as necessary in the circumstances to carry out this good cause; and trust you'll agree the exemption applies. Consequently, the exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.
I look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.
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Please stop dancing on the head of a pin with this.
You were engaged in an exempt activity = it is as if the waiting restriction did not exist.
You don't have to apologise, ask for forgiveness, plea for clemency: according to your account you were absolutely entitled to be parked where you were. And you could go back again, and again and again..providing it's on a Sunday!
One modification to my draft, you saw the PCN but it blew away before it could be examined. A minor change.
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Sorry I forgot to include this in my original post.
Is it worth mentioning that I spoke to the CEO and explained that I took food into the Church for the homeless. I politely asked if he could make a note on his handheld so they can see it when I appeal but he refused. I tried persuading him to just make a brief note about our conversation. He said it doesn’t matter, it will not make any difference. He said he gave me a two minute observation before issuing the PCN. I said I was inside the church handing over the food I brought
I recorded the whole conversation. Not sure if it is legal / okay to mention that I have evidence of the conversation as I didn’t get his consent that I was recording our conversation. I have just listened again to the conversation and the CEO is not even aware that loading is exempt on Sunday and after 5.00 p.m. Monday to Saturday. He said it is a conservation area. Don’t know what he meant by that. He was very mean, dismissive and unhelpful to say the least.
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I would send the below. It would help if you had something official to enclose such as an email or thank you from the centre or such like. If this is a regular activity of yours you should also say so.
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I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in the exempt activity of unloading.
I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so. Some of the food was hot food.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload all the food.
I took only as long as necessary to carry out this good cause and trust you'll agree the exemption applies and look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.
Many thanks for drafting this. Very well written and concise. Very much grateful for this
It was a verbal thank you and appreciation of the donation but they didn’t give me
anything in writing.
This was our first contribution and it was informal. In addition, there isn’t enough time now to ask for evidence as the PCN is due to increase today as advised by Medway Council today. It will be wise to get my appeal in asap today before the fee increase.
Can I include some of the supermarket receipts of some of the items purchased.
Is it worth mentioning the delivery and unloading process as explained in my reply yesterday or just keep it short as your draft.
It will be a semi-regular activity. It depends on what and when we have good buys/ offers / deals. Yes, I will certainly be going there again. I will include that in my appeal
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On the day in question I was delivering goods to the church and therefore there was no contravention.
Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first delivery. Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers. I also made two trips which I assume were either side of the PCN being issued -I can only surmise this as there wasn't a PCN on my vehicle at any time, presumably because this had been blown away in the extreme weather. In any event,this doesn't bear upon my circumstances or representations.
I was delivering, a vehicle was essential, I parked as near to the church as possible and the activity took only as long as necessary in the circumstances. Consequently, the exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.
OP, what can you provide by way of evidence e.g. any paperwork, correspondence etc.
Many thanks H C Andersen for this. Very well written. Very much appreciated.
OP, what can you provide by way of evidence e.g. any paperwork, correspondence etc.
I don’t have any paperwork or written correspondence as this was my first donation.
I got a verbal thank you and appreciation from the co-ordinator ( I assume) / one of the volunteers.
This was our first contribution and it was informal. In addition, there isn’t enough time to ask for anything as the PCN is due to increase today as advised by Medway Council today. It will be wise to get my appeal in asap today before the fee increases .
I have some supermarket receipts of the yellow stickers and discounted items we bought which formed part of the donation. Can I include them? I have text messages and Whatapp messages of giving away food regularly to the homeless and people in the community to show this is something we do but it is not relevant to The Emmaus CC donation. Please can you let me know if I should include these other unrelated messages.
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Sorry I confused you with the loading sign - it's nothing to do with Sundays but wanted to make you aware that there are loading restrictions at other times.
No you didn’t confuse me. Yes I am aware as per signage / timeplate. Thanks
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On the day in question I was delivering goods to the church and therefore there was no contravention.
Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first delivery. Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers. I also made two trips which I assume were either side of the PCN being issued -I can only surmise this as there wasn't a PCN on my vehicle at any time, presumably because this had been blown away in the extreme weather. In any event,this doesn't bear upon my circumstances or representations.
I was delivering, a vehicle was essential, I parked as near to the church as possible and the activity took only as long as necessary in the circumstances. Consequently, the exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.
OP, what can you provide by way of evidence e.g. any paperwork, correspondence etc.
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Sorry I confused you with the loading sign - it's nothing to do with Sundays but wanted to make you aware that there are loading restrictions at other times.
I would send the below. It would help if you had something official to enclose such as an email or thank you from the centre or such like. If this is a regular activity of yours you should also say so.
------------------------------
I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in the exempt activity of unloading.
I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so. Some of the food was hot food.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload all the food.
I took only as long as necessary to carry out this good cause and trust you'll agree the exemption applies and look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.
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The signage is clear - no loading in the zone 10am to 5pm Mon-Sat, so avoid those times if taking food there. You were there before 5pm but it was Sunday.
Your account of unloading is good and it would be a hard-hearted council that pursued you for this good cause.
(https://i.imgur.com/4sUAFZs.png)
Thanks. I didn't see the information on the sign in the picture the CEO Uploaded. Looking at the Googlemap John posted I saw the signage clear and then understood your comments. Loading is allowed all throughout Sunday. I believe it is because of the Church services on Sunday that's why loading is exempted. To be honest I was very upset when I saw the PCN and didn't bother to hang around to check any signage. Also it was very windy and drizzling and was dark.
Please on what ground(s) should I appeal? Also the code 01 used is that the correct code for loading. this is the bit I need some expert help in. Please can you suggest some wording or structure for the appeal so I can draft it and post it up to be reviewed and corrected. What evidence should I include?
Many thanks. Appreciated
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Here, I presume?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QrZyTxpH91WJLoXk6
Yes, I was parked on the spot the Traffic Warden is standing in the picture. by the time I got there the place was parked full of cars on both side of the road. Thanks for posting this. I was so upset that I didn't check the template and it was very windy and getting dark. Looking at the time plate I now understand what Stamfordman was saying that the loading does not apply on Sunday. Loading is prohibited Monday to Saturday 10:00 am to 5:oo pm. Not sure if the CC01 applies to loading. This is the bit I am confused about and need the guidance of the experts to if I can challenge the CC.
(Small world - I lived on Clover Street half a century ago - looks very different now.)
Indeed, it is a small world. I bet it doesn't look the same after half a century. Even the High Street has changed. Are you still in Kent. I guess you are no longer in Medway.
Medway (I assume was the issuing authority) have a status/history page for a PCN?
Issue date of 24th. means discount period now expired.
Medway doesn't have a history page but you can look up the PCN on their website and see the amount due.
I checked this morning after posting and it was £35.
I have just checked again but got this message “We're experiencing some technical difficulties with the website search function. Our website search function is temporarily unavailable. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.”
From experience, Medway is a bit lenient and starts counting after the day the PCN was issued and tend to leave it at the discounted amount for a while.
At the moment, it looks as if you need to draft a challenge based on mitigation (charitable work, bulky items, atrocious weather) but wait for the experts to chip in.
Medway (if they do not accept your challenge) may well re-offer the discount.
Post your draft here for comment before sending in, but do not miss deadline.[/quote]
I am waiting to get some advice and guidance from the experts as what grounds to appeal and the wording in terms of what to include and what to leave out; I will then draft an appeal. According to the signage on the Google map you posted Loading is allowed on Sunday. I will have to prove that I was loading and substantiate that.
Ideally I would have loved to send it today but not sure if I have all the required points and guidance to do the draft.
Medway will offer the discount if the appeal is made within the discounted period or whilst the PCN is showing at the discounted amount on their website.
N.B. at the next stage ) your sister should receive this if hers is the name on the V5C, and she, not you, is the person to make reps against the NtO.
Yeah. Ideally I do not want to leave it to get to that stage
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The signage is clear - no loading in the zone 10am to 5pm Mon-Sat, so avoid those times if taking food there. You were there before 5pm but it was Sunday.
Your account of unloading is good and it would be a hard-hearted council that pursued you for this good cause.
(https://i.imgur.com/4sUAFZs.png)
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It's a restricted parking zone with 24/7 no waiting but the no loading time doesn't apply on Sunday when you got the PCN, hence the code 01 to which the loading exemption applies.
Thanks. Just to be clear, is loading only allowed on Sundays but not on other days? Could you please show me the relevant signage for future reference? Sorry if I sound confused—could you please explain/simplify your comment above? I don't want to pretend that I understand all of it and miss out on a crucial point.
Many thanks.
Problem is you say you 'stayed for approx 5 mins' - what does this mean? To claim the exemption you need to have taken stuff in and returned to car taking no more time.
"
As per my earlier reply , there were delays when I arrived to hand over the food. Additionally, they asked me to wait while they transferred my food to their own container. Some of the items were bulky and heavy, which is why I was there longer than expected. I had to make two trips between my car and the centre. I literally missed him issuing the ticket, which is why I saw him sitting down on the next road. I wouldn’t risk leaving my boot open in Chatham Town Centre, knowing it is a high-risk, high-crime area. While I was waiting for them to transfer the food to their container, I stepped out to check my car and that's when I saw the PCN.
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At this stage yes, if you were delivering goods. You need to tell us more about this process (not who the food was for but the process e.g. were you expected, did you make one or more than one trip, were you on your own, how was what you delivered received/accounted for, what paperwork was involved etc?);
It was my first time dropping off food. I was on my own. I did two trips from my car to the centre. There was a bit of delay when I went in initially as they were just about to start sharing and the centre was already full with homeless people. They also transferred the hot food to their own container which took some time. They were expecting me but the time wasn’t confirmed. We had a window to drop off the food during which they can make the re-distribution We were making a personal voluntary contribution. We bought discounted and yellow sticker items from the supermarket ( some receipts available) friends and family donated items and the rest was home-made food. There was no paperwork / invoice as it was a personal /family gift donation because of the good work The centre was are doing. Majority of the homeless people that hang around the high street go there to get hot food. As a family we regularly buy discounted / yellow sticker items to a give to Homeless individuals including AMAT Residents in Chatham, guys hanging around in the town centre or supermarket entrances begging, struggling parents, single parents, elderly or struggling neighbours who have lost their Job loss or sick etc. It’s just helping the community. I have old text message offering food to struggling people and neighbours.
2. Can the Council refuse to provide me with a copy / duplicate of the PCN ?
At this stage, yes. It was served but it blew away or whatever. It happens. The registered keeper would see an exact copy if the matter progressed to adjudication.
Should the council parking department not have provided me the information in writing as requested especially that they knew there was a storm?
No.
Okay thanks Noted.
Is this a standard practice and it is acceptable? Is there anything I can do about this ?
IMO, yes, yes and no.
Thanks
I suggest you concentrate on substantive issues of the contravention.
Sure, my focus is one the contravention. I was asking this to see if they can extend the discounted period being that I didn't have the details of the PCN on hand. I didn’t have adequate time can get the relevant help and advice on how to challenge the PCN successfully or if I should just cut my losses and pay the discounted amount.
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1. Do I have any grounds to challenge the PCN successfully?
At this stage yes, if you were delivering goods. You need to tell us more about this process (not who the food was for but the process e.g. were you expected, did you make one or more than one trip, were you on your own, how was what you delivered received/accounted for, what paperwork was involved etc?);
2. Can the Council refuse to provide me with a copy / duplicate of the PCN ?
At this stage, yes. It was served but it blew away or whatever. It happens. The registered keeper would see an exact copy if the matter progressed to adjudication.
Should the council parking department not have provided me the information in writing as requested especially that they knew there was a storm?
No.
Is this a standard practice and it is acceptable? Is there anything I can do about this ?
IMO, yes, yes and no.
I suggest you concentrate on substantive issues of the contravention.
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It's a restricted parking zone with 24/7 no waiting but the no loading time doesn't apply o Sunday when you got the PCN, hence the code 01 to which the loading exemption applies.
Problem is you say you 'stayed for approx 5 mins' - what does this mean? To claim the exemption you need to have taken stuff in and returned to car taking no more time.
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Here, I presume?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QrZyTxpH91WJLoXk6
(Small world - I lived on Clover Street half a century ago - looks very different now.)
Does Medway (I assume was the issuing authority) have a status/history page for a PCN?
Issue date of 24th. means discount period now expired.
At the moment, it looks as if you need to draft a challenge based on mitigation (charitable work, bulky items, atrocious weather) but wait for the experts to chip in.
Medway (if they do not accept your challenge) may well re-offer the discount.
Post your draft here for comment before sending in, but do not miss deadline.
N.B. at the next stage (NtO) your sister shoiuld receive this if hers is the name on the V5C, and she, not you, is the person to make reps againmst the NtO.
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CODE 01 Medway Delivering food for the Homeless to Emmaus Church Centre. Clover Street Chatham
I am seeking advice on whether there are any valid grounds for a successful appeal or challenge for the following PCN:
PCN Details:
• PCN No. MW912094257
• Date of Issue: 24th November 2024
• Time: 16:19
• Location: Clover Street ME4 4DE
• Contravention Code: 01 – Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
• Observation Time: 2.34 seconds
I was driving my sister’s car and had parked briefly in front of Emmaus Church Centre on Clover Street to drop off food, including hot meals, for the homeless. I arrived around 16:16 and stayed for approximately 5 minutes. During this time, a PCN was issued. The PCN was blown off the windscreen by strong winds from Storm Bert, before I had the chance to remove it from the windscreen. I drove around the block and found the CEO sitting down (hiding) a dark corner at the back of a car park up an alley on the next street hiding and on his phone. Apparently waiting to come out again to strike and issue more PCN. It is likely he must have seen me parking and going into the centre with the food stuff.
I contacted the council for details and a copy of the PCN, but the parking staff told me that they do not issue duplicate PCNs or provide a written copy. After some insistence, they provided me with the PCN information above but stated that they only provide the PCN number and the date it was issued as that was all I needed to view the PCN on their website. I reminded her that the website does not have a copy of the PCN and all the information needed to successfully challenge the PCN. The website only shows pictures evidences taken by the CEO issuing the PCN.
Questions:
1. Do I have any grounds to challenge the PCN successfully?
2. Can the Council refuse to provide me with a copy / duplicate of the PCN ? Should the council parking department not have provided me the information in writing as requested especially that they knew there was a storm? Is this a standard practice and it is acceptable? Is there anything I can do about this ?
I would appreciate any guidance or advice from the experts in appealing this PCN.
Thank you all in advance for your time and assistance.
See link below with all the pictures on the Medway Website
https://ibb.co/cQY2m3S