Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: mothepro on December 06, 2024, 01:17:14 pm
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The Penalty Charge Notice is unenforceable because:
1. The reference to The Interpretation Act is both irrelevant and confusing as the legislation pertaining to Bus Lane enforcement refers to actions which may be taken by the authority and/or appellant from the date of the notice.
2. The statement: "Any written correspondence before the issue of the Enforcement Notice will not be treated as a formal representation." fetters discretion and is contrary to the legislation in that it clearly implies that you will send an Enforcement Notice when the legislation states "may" at 4(3)(e)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/section/4/enacted
3. The statement: "It will not entitle you to the right of appeal." is both absurd and flies in the face of the law and natural justice. Further, the next statement about consideration seems to contradict what has been previously stated.
4. The statement: "Failure to respond or contact us within 28 days of the service date of this notice will result in the Enforcement Notice automatically being sent to you after this period." similarly fetters discretion and also misstates the time period.
Request for the video if not received
I ask for a copy asap please.
The alleged contravention did not occur
The embedded photograph on the PCN lacks any proof of relevant signage either passed or in situ.
The Enforcement Notice
I make these further formal representations:
1. The Enforcement Notice, as does the PCN, mistakenly states Ground 4(2)(c) provided at Schedule I. It clearly limits to theft.
2. The Enforcement Notice describes itself as a PCN with regard to the Interpretation Act.
Camera authorisation
I put you to strict proof that the camera used to capture the alleged contravention has the correct certification. If this is not forthcoming, this will be another ground of appeal.
In light of the above, please cancel the PCN,
Name
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Pm to be sent.
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Your vehicle having 8 passenger seats plus the driver is a car and cannot use bus lanes.
With 9 to 16 passenger seats plus driver it is a mini bus.
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If TFL are correct, does it help me in any way that I relied on the information from the London Assembly? Could I use that as a defense or alternatively complain to the London Assembly?
So you looked up the definition of a 'bus' on the London Assembly site before you drove into the bus lane?
Not sure if there is slight sarcasm going on here, but just to explain the mindset here.
Most large cars are 7-8 seaters. 9 seater cars are more rare. As such, there can be confusion as to what their status is. As an example, back in 2014 I was stopped by police whilst driving a 9 seater vehicle and issued a ticket for driving not in accordance with my license. They stated that I was only allowed to drive a vehicle with 8 seats in total, based on Category B
Category B - Motor vehicles with a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the carriage of no more than eight passenger seats, with a trailer up to 750kg. (If trailer is over 750kg, the combination MAM must not exceed 3500kg. **) (minimum age 17*).
As you will appreciate, that is incorrect and actually enables a vehicle with 8 seats plus another for the driver. It took me months to persuade the police to drop the charges, even though I had an email from the DVLA specifically confirming this point. Additionally, a vehicle with 9+ seats is eligible for a 100% discount of the congestion charge. So it is not that ridiculous to assume that there may be some difference with the bus lane regulations for a 9 seater vehicle, and therefore yes, I did look up online and come across the London Assembly guidance prior to going into the Bus Lane.
Regards
Mo
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Reminds me of the time I was stopped by a policeman when driving in a bus lane with him asking, "Are you a bus, sir?"
The regulation (or whatever) indeed looks like a failure of plain English - it should say 'nine or more passengers' and to spell it out 'excluding the driver'.
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If TFL are correct, does it help me in any way that I relied on the information from the London Assembly? Could I use that as a defense or alternatively complain to the London Assembly?
So you looked up the definition of a 'bus' on the London Assembly site before you drove into the bus lane?
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.. My vehicle is a 9 seater - 8 passengers plus the driver. I was under the assumption that that qualifies the vehicle to go into a Bus Lane. I had read on the London Assembley that this was the case - see here (https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/hospital-mini-buses)
Bus lanes may be used by all vehicles classed as a bus under the terms of the Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions 2002 (TSRGD). The TSRGD classes a bus as any motor vehicle 'constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver)'. Therefore, any vehicles with 9 seats or more are permitted to travel within a bus lane.
@mothepro - if you think about it for a moment, what London Assembly have said there makes no sense whatsoever.
If a vehicle has to be able "to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver)" then that means that it needs a minimum of at least 10 seats (for at least 9 passengers plus the driver) and not 9. If they had clarified their answer by adding the word "passenger" after the number 9 in "9 seats or more" that would have been unambiguous, but that isn't what they've written.
I would certainly point out to London Assembly that their answer to that question is at best misleading and at worst plain wrong. Whether it would help you get off this PCN I don't know. (Is TFL accountable to London Assembly?)
BTW - I note that the question the London Assembly was answering seemed to come from a NHS transport office re hospital transport. Is that what you are doing? If yes, then as a retired NHS manager myself I'd suggest you get the hospital trust involved and not deal with it yourself
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Duplicate post
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Duplicate post
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Welcome. I would wait for the Enforcement Notice and I am more than happy to draft and assist from this stage.
Hi,
I have now received the enforcement. Would you be able to assist with a draft for an appeal?
https://freeimage.host/i/2SQdGqP
https://freeimage.host/i/2SQd1LB
Many thanks
Mo
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Welcome. I would wait for the Enforcement Notice and I am more than happy to draft and assist from this stage.
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Construction & Use regulations define a bus as
...."constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver)"
Driver and more than eight passengers equals more than nine people and requires Category D driving licence
Your vehicle is a car not a bus.
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Hi All,
I received a PCN from TFL for driving in a Bus Lane. My vehicle is a 9 seater - 8 passengers plus the driver. I was under the assumption that that qualifies the vehicle to go into a Bus Lane. I had read on the London Assembley that this was the case - see here (https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/hospital-mini-buses)
Bus lanes may be used by all vehicles classed as a bus under the terms of the Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions 2002 (TSRGD). The TSRGD classes a bus as any motor vehicle 'constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver)'. Therefore, any vehicles with 9 seats or more are permitted to travel within a bus lane.
I appealed to TFL on the 30th October attaching the logbook and writing as follows:
This vehicle is a 9 seater and as such it legally entitled to drive in a bus lane. Please see the link here from the London Assembly confirming this point. https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/hospital-mini-buses I attach a copy of the vehicles logbook confirming that it is indeed a 9 seater. Please can you confirm this PCN is being cancelled. Thank you
TFL replied in a letter dated 22nd November saying that the regulations require a vehicle to be constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers. This means that the vehicle must be a 10 seater. TFL allowed the discounted fee to remain at £80 however by the time I received the letter and got to log on today, it has gone up to £160.
I am attaching a copy of the PCN and TFL's response below. UPDATE: I am not sure if the link is working at the bottom, the link is also here https://imgur.com/a/Es10mIo
I have a few questions.
1. Is the meaning of the Regulation to require a vehicle to be a 10 seater, or a 9 seater. I can see both ways as being the intended regulation. Certainly the London Assembly have taken those exact words and understood them to mean a 9 seater vehicle is classed as a bus.
2. If TFL are correct, does it help me in any way that I relied on the information from the London Assembly? Could I use that as a defense or alternatively complain to the London Assembly?
3. Although TFL may perhaps be correct, they have failed to address the support that I used from the London Assembly as my representations. Does this constitute a failure to consider representations?
4. As far as I understand, TFL would be required to give me 14 days at the discounted level because I appealed to them in time. Would that date be 14 days from the date on their letter or 14 days from date of service of their letter? Today is day 15 and it is already at £160.
5. TFL allowed the discounted charge however they made no mention in their letter about any cut off period for that. All they note is that if not paid, an enforcement notice will be provided giving me a further 28 days and if that is not dealt with, a CC will be issued at which point it will go up to 50% more than the original amount. Does this lack of notification about a timeframe at which point the discount will expire constitute a failure on TFL's behalf?
Thank you very much
Mo
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fa%2FEs10mIo%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fa%2FEs10mIo%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=4b2df1da3fabe4568d6242bc86e60a15c570aded)