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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: phlegmborough2 on December 06, 2024, 11:25:14 am


Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 20, 2025, 11:28:33 am
Thank you so much!!!!!

Fingers crossed!

You can only submit basic text in response to the operators evidence pack. So, I suggest you copy and past the following into the POPLA response webform as your response:

Quote
Appellant’s Response to Operator’s Evidence

The operator has failed to adequately rebut the key points raised in my original appeal regarding unclear signage and the ambiguity over who the contractual party is in this matter.

1. Signage Confusion and Ambiguity

The operator has failed to address the fundamental issue of conflicting signage. The prominent signage at the car park entrance states, "Car Park Solution provided by Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions." This explicitly indicates that Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions (BWPS) manages the site. In contrast, the tiny, less prominent yellow signage mentions Minster Baywatch. These conflicting signs create significant ambiguity about which party is responsible for the operation of the car park.

It is critical to note that Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions and Minster Baywatch are two entirely separate legal entities, each registered at Companies House under distinct company registration numbers. This is an indisputable fact. The operator has not provided any evidence to explain or clarify this dual involvement. No reasonable driver could be expected to identify Minster Baywatch as the contracting party when Bransby Wilson’s name is most prominently displayed on the signage.

As a result, any alleged contract with Minster Baywatch is unenforceable under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015), Section 69, which requires ambiguous terms to be interpreted in favour of the consumer.

2. Conflict in Submitted Documents

The operator has included two separate documents in their evidence pack: the "order form" and the "confirmation of authority." The "order form," which contains the substantive contractual elements, is signed exclusively by Bransby Wilson. Minster Baywatch is mentioned only in the secondary "confirmation of authority," which does not establish them as the contractual party forming agreements with drivers at the site.

Given that Bransby Wilson and Minster Baywatch are separate legal entities, it is wholly unclear who is responsible for enforcement, signage, or the management of this car park. This unresolved ambiguity invalidates the alleged contract with Minster Baywatch.

3. Failure to Address CRA 2015, Section 69

The operator has completely failed to address my argument that ambiguous terms must be interpreted in favour of the consumer under CRA 2015, Section 69. The conflicting signage and the unclear roles of Bransby Wilson and Minster Baywatch create a situation where a reasonable driver cannot identify the party with whom they are allegedly contracting. The operator’s failure to respond to this point further reinforces my position that the alleged contract is void.

4. Failure to Prove Payment Obligation

The operator has failed to provide evidence that a valid contract existed between the driver and Minster Baywatch. Without clear signage identifying Minster Baywatch as the operator, there is no legal basis to demand payment. Furthermore, the operator’s reliance on ANPR and payment logs does not override the fundamental requirement for clear, unambiguous contractual terms.

5. ANPR and Payment Records

The operator’s evidence focuses on the ANPR log and payment records but fails to acknowledge that I have already highlighted the confusion regarding the registration entry. The payment made for a similar registration demonstrates no intent to evade payment. This further undermines the rationale for issuing the Parking Charge Notice and highlights the lack of any financial loss suffered by the operator.

Conclusion

The operator has failed to rebut the critical points of my appeal:

• The conflicting signage does not establish Minster Baywatch as the contractual party.

• Bransby Wilson and Minster Baywatch are entirely separate legal entities, each with a distinct company registration number. The operator has not explained how Minster Baywatch has authority to issue parking charges when Bransby Wilson is the party responsible under the contract.

• The Consumer Rights Act 2015 invalidates the alleged contract due to ambiguity.

For these reasons, I request that POPLA uphold my appeal.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on January 20, 2025, 10:04:25 am
You can only submit basic text in response to the operators evidence pack. So, I suggest you copy and past the following into the POPLA response webform as your response:

Quote
Appellant’s Response to Operator’s Evidence

The operator has failed to adequately rebut the key points raised in my original appeal regarding unclear signage and the ambiguity over who the contractual party is in this matter.

1. Signage Confusion and Ambiguity

The operator has failed to address the fundamental issue of conflicting signage. The prominent signage at the car park entrance states, "Car Park Solution provided by Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions." This explicitly indicates that Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions (BWPS) manages the site. In contrast, the tiny, less prominent yellow signage mentions Minster Baywatch. These conflicting signs create significant ambiguity about which party is responsible for the operation of the car park.

It is critical to note that Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions and Minster Baywatch are two entirely separate legal entities, each registered at Companies House under distinct company registration numbers. This is an indisputable fact. The operator has not provided any evidence to explain or clarify this dual involvement. No reasonable driver could be expected to identify Minster Baywatch as the contracting party when Bransby Wilson’s name is most prominently displayed on the signage.

As a result, any alleged contract with Minster Baywatch is unenforceable under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015), Section 69, which requires ambiguous terms to be interpreted in favour of the consumer.

2. Conflict in Submitted Documents

The operator has included two separate documents in their evidence pack: the "order form" and the "confirmation of authority." The "order form," which contains the substantive contractual elements, is signed exclusively by Bransby Wilson. Minster Baywatch is mentioned only in the secondary "confirmation of authority," which does not establish them as the contractual party forming agreements with drivers at the site.

Given that Bransby Wilson and Minster Baywatch are separate legal entities, it is wholly unclear who is responsible for enforcement, signage, or the management of this car park. This unresolved ambiguity invalidates the alleged contract with Minster Baywatch.

3. Failure to Address CRA 2015, Section 69

The operator has completely failed to address my argument that ambiguous terms must be interpreted in favour of the consumer under CRA 2015, Section 69. The conflicting signage and the unclear roles of Bransby Wilson and Minster Baywatch create a situation where a reasonable driver cannot identify the party with whom they are allegedly contracting. The operator’s failure to respond to this point further reinforces my position that the alleged contract is void.

4. Failure to Prove Payment Obligation

The operator has failed to provide evidence that a valid contract existed between the driver and Minster Baywatch. Without clear signage identifying Minster Baywatch as the operator, there is no legal basis to demand payment. Furthermore, the operator’s reliance on ANPR and payment logs does not override the fundamental requirement for clear, unambiguous contractual terms.

5. ANPR and Payment Records

The operator’s evidence focuses on the ANPR log and payment records but fails to acknowledge that I have already highlighted the confusion regarding the registration entry. The payment made for a similar registration demonstrates no intent to evade payment. This further undermines the rationale for issuing the Parking Charge Notice and highlights the lack of any financial loss suffered by the operator.

Conclusion

The operator has failed to rebut the critical points of my appeal:

• The conflicting signage does not establish Minster Baywatch as the contractual party.

• Bransby Wilson and Minster Baywatch are entirely separate legal entities, each with a distinct company registration number. The operator has not explained how Minster Baywatch has authority to issue parking charges when Bransby Wilson is the party responsible under the contract.

• The Consumer Rights Act 2015 invalidates the alleged contract due to ambiguity.

For these reasons, I request that POPLA uphold my appeal.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 19, 2025, 04:27:48 pm
We know it says 28 days but in reality, it is 28 days from service and we now that the code will work up to day 33.

It's not a massive **** up but we would ave preferred to see what you intended to submit so that we could make sure that you covered all the necessary points correctly. If POPLA do not uphold your appeal, it is no big deal because their decision is not binding on you.

Let's wait and see what the operator submits as their evidence and whether they rebut all the points you raised.

Hi yes, they have replied with their evidence: https://imgur.com/a/knfy2iF and the contract here https://imgur.com/a/3UFO25D
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on January 19, 2025, 12:35:22 pm
We know it says 28 days but in reality, it is 28 days from service and we now that the code will work up to day 33.

It's not a massive **** up but we would ave preferred to see what you intended to submit so that we could make sure that you covered all the necessary points correctly. If POPLA do not uphold your appeal, it is no big deal because their decision is not binding on you.

Let's wait and see what the operator submits as their evidence and whether they rebut all the points you raised.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 19, 2025, 11:45:58 am
It stated that I had 28 days from the date of their response to my appeal issued to submit to POPLA :(

Had I f***ed up badly? Can I remedy this at this stage?
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on January 19, 2025, 12:32:45 am
The POPLA code is valid for 33 days from the appeal rejection date. Please don’t jump to conclusions. They allow 5 days for service. 28 + 5 =33

The landowner contract is between Barnby Wilson, not Minster Baywatch.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 18, 2025, 07:24:24 pm
Unfortunately I made a mistake with the dates and the POPLA due date was actually 14 Jan so I had to put something together quickly!

They have also included this information about their contract: https://imgur.com/a/3UFO25D

Also, I did include a photo of the signages!
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on January 18, 2025, 03:30:09 pm
You didn't put them to strict proof that the contract with the landowner authorises the operator to issue PCNs in their own name. Have they provided an unredacted contract flowing from the landowner to Minster Baywatch? You ave not shown all the rest of their evidence pack.

Did you not send a photo of the signage with your POPLA appeal as evidence of the allegation about lack of clarity with whom the driver/operator contract was made?

You have until tomorrow, 19th January to submit your POPLA appeal so why did you rush unnecessarily?

You cannot upload any images or introduce new arguments at this stage. All you can do is rebut their points and highlight any of your points that were not rebutted.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 18, 2025, 01:07:29 pm
Hi everyone,

I have appealed to POPLA with the following (sorry, didn't post it here to be vetted as I realised I only had one day left do so)

"Appeal Basis: This appeal is based on the principle that unclear signage invalidates any alleged contract formed with Minster Baywatch, as per consumer protection law, and that Minster Baywatch has failed to demonstrate the right to enforce parking terms at this location.

Legal Framework: Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015), Section 69 states:
"If a term in a consumer contract or a consumer notice could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

The ambiguous and conflicting signage present at the site, coupled with the unclear role of Minster Baywatch as opposed to Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions (BWPS), creates multiple interpretations of who the contractual party is. Consequently, the CRA 2015 requires any ambiguity to be resolved in favour of the consumer. This invalidates any alleged contract with Minster Baywatch.

Observations:

1: The most prominent signage at the car park entrance states: "Car Park Solution provided by Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions.”

This signage clearly implies that Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions (BWPS) manages the site on behalf of the landowner.

2: A lower, less prominent yellow panel contains the following text: "Minster Baywatch Ltd is authorised by the landowner to operate this car park on their behalf.”

A valid contract requires clarity regarding the parties involved. The prominent signage branded with "Bransby Wilson" leads a reasonable driver to believe that Bransby Wilson is the operator managing the car park. The secondary, much smaller Minster Baywatch signage does not provide sufficient clarity to override this perception, rendering the purported contract void.

Conclusion:

The unclear and conflicting signage invalidates any alleged contract between Minster Baywatch and the consumer.

I respectfully submit that this is contrary to the requirements of the Single Code of Practice and therefore recovery of the Parking Charge by Minster Baywatch cannot be endorsed by POPLA and my appeal must be allowed."

Minster Baywatch has returned with their reply, and I have 6 more days to submit comments.

Their replies here: https://imgur.com/a/knfy2iF

Thanks so much in advance for any input!
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on January 08, 2025, 12:07:52 pm
You need to make a POPLA appeal and put Minster Baywatch to strict proof that they have a valid contract flowing from the landowner that permits them to issue PCNs in their own name. It must also be pointed out that the signs at the location show that any contract is formed with Bransby Wilson, a completely separate legal entity. This is evidenced from the prominent signs.

The rest of the argument about Pay & Stay is secondary.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 08, 2025, 10:14:52 am
In my opinion you can get to the same end but after setting out exactly what the sign(s) say(as far as is even-handed and relevant to the argument), and then by a process of examination show what it is you're setting out to establish.


Perhaps:

As can be seen, the prominent sign states:

Car Park Solution provided by Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions

Please note that this car park is privately owned

Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions Ltd and the owners of this site accept no [general disclaimer]

BPA Member of the British Parking Association


On a lower yellow panel there are the following:

Minster Baywatch Ltd is authorised by the landowner to ***(operate??) this car park on their behalf.

The car park conditions are set out within this notice..

..and thereafter the writing is indistinct.

BPA Approved Operator logo.


From the BPA's website:
BPA Member: Bransby Wilson
BPA Approved Operator: Minster Baywatch.

From the Single Code of Practice(which applies in accordance with its published timetable):
Parking Operator ...a person who...is entitled to recover a parking charge from the driver. The creditor.

From PoFA
"parking charge”—
(a)
in the case of a relevant obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract, means a sum in the nature of a fee or charge

From the Notice to Keeper (issued on Minster Baywatch headed paper):

Minster Baywatch Ltd(the creditor).

Then I suggest you draw this together, possibly along these lines:
The prominent sign clearly implies(any reasonable person would say states) that BWPS manage the site on behalf of the landowner - the contrary cannot reasonably be argued given BWPS attachment to the disclaimer for loss/damage etc.

However, BWPS are not Approved Operators of any Accredited Trade Association and therefore not permitted to access DVLA data.

BWPS is the only name attached to the prominent sign therefore they are deemed to offer the contract terms on behalf of the unnamed landowner.

The SCoP makes it clear that only the Parking Operator is entitled to recover a Parking Charge and is therefore the 'creditor'.

However, the NTK clearly states that MBL are the 'creditor' without any reference, by way of a statement either explicit or implicit, that another party is the 'creditor' in law as regards the Parking Charge.

I suggest that it must be clear to the assessor what is happening. BWPS secure a contract to manage the site and offer parking terms on behalf of the landowner. However, by virtue of not being a BPA Approved Operator they are unable to access DVLA data in order to identify the keeper. They have therefore contracted a third party who is a legal stranger to the contract to issue parking charges. But instead of this company, BWL, identifying themselves as an agent of the principal, BWPS, they are claiming to be the creditor in their own right.

I respectfully submit that this is contrary to the requirements of the SCoP and therefore recovery of the Parking Charge by BWL cannot be endorsed by POPLA and my appeal must be allowed.

By way of a parallel example, the assessor is probably aware that in the public sector contracting out of penalty charge enforcement by Enforcement Authorities(councils) is commonplace. However, at all times the penalty is payable to the Enforcement Authority and not the contractor. I could also add that consideration of formal representations is a function restricted by law to Enforcement Authorities. Similarly with the SCoP which requires Parking Operators to consider appeals in a manner commensurate with their Approved Operator status and not, as here, to contract out to a third party - (OP I did ask you for the full reply but you only posted what you considered to be the gist of it. Pl post all 4 corners of their reply )

It would be useful to see in detail what the yellow panel says because this would probably give rise to a separate strand of analysis along the lines of 'even if it was accepted that the wording of the lower panel in some way authorised BWL to act on BWPS's behalf such that they could be considered to be the creditor, this could not be considered to have been conveyed to the driver by virtue of the sign's lack of prominence and its minute font size etc. etc.

And then you have other arguments. But IMO set out the facts upon which you want to rely and then analyse, compare, contrast and conclude.

Apologies, please find the full letter from minster baywatch here: https://imgur.com/a/3MmJxlj
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: DWMB2 on January 07, 2025, 09:59:06 am
I wouldn't rely on AI to draft things for you. HC Andersen has provided some pointers above.

Order your points numerically to help the flow of the appeal. You need to tidy up the punctuation too - some sentences contain multiple colons ":" which just looks untidy.

Quote
BPA Website: From the BPA website:
BPA Member: Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions.
BPA Approved Operator: Minster Baywatch.
It's not clear what your point is here.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 06, 2025, 10:08:25 am
Thanks everyone for their input!

With the help of AI, I've put this POPLA appeal together. It's a long one. so bear with me..

Appeal Basis: This appeal is based on the principle that unclear signage invalidates any alleged contract formed with Minster Baywatch, as per consumer protection law, and that Minster Baywatch has failed to demonstrate the right to enforce parking terms at this location.

Legal Framework: Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015), Section 69 states:
"If a term in a consumer contract or a consumer notice could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail."

The ambiguous and conflicting signage present at the site, coupled with the unclear role of Minster Baywatch as opposed to Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions (BWPS), creates multiple interpretations of who the contractual party is. Consequently, the CRA 2015 requires any ambiguity to be resolved in favour of the consumer. This invalidates any alleged contract with Minster Baywatch.

Signage Observations:

Prominent Signage:
The most prominent signage at the car park entrance states:
"Car Park Solution provided by Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions.
Please note that this car park is privately owned.
Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions Ltd and the owners of this site accept no [general disclaimer]."
This signage clearly implies that Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions (BWPS) manages the site on behalf of the landowner.
Furthermore, the prominent sign includes the BPA Member logo with the name "Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions", not Minster Baywatch.

Secondary Signage:
A lower, less prominent yellow panel contains the following text:
"Minster Baywatch Ltd is authorised by the landowner to operate this car park on their behalf. The car park conditions are set out within this notice..."
However, this secondary sign is unclear, as the text beyond "...the car park conditions are set out within this notice..." becomes indistinct. This means the terms and conditions are not legible and therefore unenforceable.

BPA Website: From the BPA website:
BPA Member: Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions.
BPA Approved Operator: Minster Baywatch.
This creates further ambiguity about which party is the "Parking Operator" entitled to recover the parking charge as defined by the BPA and the relevant Code of Practice.
Single Code of Practice (SCoP): The SCoP defines a "Parking Operator" as:
"A person who...is entitled to recover a parking charge from the driver. The creditor."

The SCoP makes it clear that only the Parking Operator is entitled to recover a parking charge. The prominent signage suggests BWPS is managing the site, but the Notice to Keeper (NTK) issued by Minster Baywatch states that Minster Baywatch Ltd is the "creditor." There is no explicit or implicit indication that Minster Baywatch is acting as an agent for Bransby Wilson, leading to a contradiction that must be resolved in favour of the consumer under CRA 2015 Section 69.

Contradictions in the Parking Contract:
Prominent Signage: BWPS appears to be the party offering parking terms on behalf of the landowner. However, BWPS is not a BPA Approved Operator and therefore cannot access DVLA data to issue parking charges.
Notice to Keeper (NTK): Minster Baywatch is claiming to be the "creditor" without referencing BWPS as the principal.

This suggests that BWPS has secured the contract to manage the site but has subcontracted Minster Baywatch to issue parking charges. Instead of Minster Baywatch identifying themselves as an agent of BWPS, they claim to be the "creditor" in their own right. This approach violates the SCoP, as the actual contractual party—BWPS—is not an Approved Operator.

Request for Evidence: To clarify the ambiguity:

I request evidence that Minster Baywatch has the contractual right to enforce parking in this car park, given the prominence of BWPS branding.

Evidence that Minster Baywatch is authorised to issue parking charges on behalf of the landowner in this location.

Without such evidence, Minster Baywatch does not have the contractual right to issue PCNs in their own name at this site.

Ambiguity of Terms ("Pay and Stay" and Multiple Visits): The terms and conditions fail to clarify whether "Pay and Stay" permits multiple entries and exits within a 24-hour period. As the terms do not explicitly state otherwise, ambiguity arises. In line with CRA 2015 Section 69, this ambiguity must be resolved in favour of the consumer, allowing for multiple visits within the paid period.

Conclusion:

The unclear and conflicting signage invalidates any alleged contract between Minster Baywatch and the consumer.

The NTK incorrectly identifies Minster Baywatch as the "creditor," contrary to the SCoP requirements.
Minster Baywatch must provide evidence of their authority to enforce parking charges at this site.

The ambiguous "Pay and Stay" terms must be resolved in favour of the consumer, per CRA 2015 Section 69.

Given these points, I respectfully request that this appeal is upheld and the parking charge is cancelled.


Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: H C Andersen on January 02, 2025, 06:03:16 pm
In my opinion you can get to the same end but after setting out exactly what the sign(s) say(as far as is even-handed and relevant to the argument), and then by a process of examination show what it is you're setting out to establish.


Perhaps:

As can be seen, the prominent sign states:

Car Park Solution provided by Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions

Please note that this car park is privately owned

Bransby Wilson Parking Solutions Ltd and the owners of this site accept no [general disclaimer]

BPA Member of the British Parking Association


On a lower yellow panel there are the following:

Minster Baywatch Ltd is authorised by the landowner to ***(operate??) this car park on their behalf.

The car park conditions are set out within this notice..

..and thereafter the writing is indistinct.

BPA Approved Operator logo.


From the BPA's website:
BPA Member: Bransby Wilson
BPA Approved Operator: Minster Baywatch.

From the Single Code of Practice(which applies in accordance with its published timetable):
Parking Operator ...a person who...is entitled to recover a parking charge from the driver. The creditor.

From PoFA
"parking charge”—
(a)
in the case of a relevant obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract, means a sum in the nature of a fee or charge

From the Notice to Keeper (issued on Minster Baywatch headed paper):

Minster Baywatch Ltd(the creditor).

Then I suggest you draw this together, possibly along these lines:
The prominent sign clearly implies(any reasonable person would say states) that BWPS manage the site on behalf of the landowner - the contrary cannot reasonably be argued given BWPS attachment to the disclaimer for loss/damage etc.

However, BWPS are not Approved Operators of any Accredited Trade Association and therefore not permitted to access DVLA data.

BWPS is the only name attached to the prominent sign therefore they are deemed to offer the contract terms on behalf of the unnamed landowner.

The SCoP makes it clear that only the Parking Operator is entitled to recover a Parking Charge and is therefore the 'creditor'.

However, the NTK clearly states that MBL are the 'creditor' without any reference, by way of a statement either explicit or implicit, that another party is the 'creditor' in law as regards the Parking Charge.

I suggest that it must be clear to the assessor what is happening. BWPS secure a contract to manage the site and offer parking terms on behalf of the landowner. However, by virtue of not being a BPA Approved Operator they are unable to access DVLA data in order to identify the keeper. They have therefore contracted a third party who is a legal stranger to the contract to issue parking charges. But instead of this company, BWL, identifying themselves as an agent of the principal, BWPS, they are claiming to be the creditor in their own right.

I respectfully submit that this is contrary to the requirements of the SCoP and therefore recovery of the Parking Charge by BWL cannot be endorsed by POPLA and my appeal must be allowed.

By way of a parallel example, the assessor is probably aware that in the public sector contracting out of penalty charge enforcement by Enforcement Authorities(councils) is commonplace. However, at all times the penalty is payable to the Enforcement Authority and not the contractor. I could also add that consideration of formal representations is a function restricted by law to Enforcement Authorities. Similarly with the SCoP which requires Parking Operators to consider appeals in a manner commensurate with their Approved Operator status and not, as here, to contract out to a third party - (OP I did ask you for the full reply but you only posted what you considered to be the gist of it. Pl post all 4 corners of their reply )

It would be useful to see in detail what the yellow panel says because this would probably give rise to a separate strand of analysis along the lines of 'even if it was accepted that the wording of the lower panel in some way authorised BWL to act on BWPS's behalf such that they could be considered to be the creditor, this could not be considered to have been conveyed to the driver by virtue of the sign's lack of prominence and its minute font size etc. etc.

And then you have other arguments. But IMO set out the facts upon which you want to rely and then analyse, compare, contrast and conclude.



Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: DWMB2 on January 02, 2025, 03:24:25 pm
There is nothing else that needs considering.
Perhaps, but I can see little downside to pointing out other issues with Minster's case. That said, I'd lead with the signage.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on January 02, 2025, 03:18:41 pm
It really doesn't matter about the keying error. If the contract is invalid, then there can be no contract.

The sign says Bransby Wilson, a completely separate legal entity from Minster Baywatch. The fact that there may be a second, smaller sign with Minster Baywatch on it is not enough for them to rely on it.

There is ambiguity. The CRA 2015 states that if a term in a consumer contract or a consumer notice could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.

There is nothing else that needs considering. If the POPLA assessor cannot understand that, then you can ignore their decision and let Minster Baywatch try to take you to court where they would get a thrashing, not for the first time, over this exact same issue.

All this faffing over the keying error is irrelevant. If a large sign displays the name "Bransby Wilson" prominently but a much smaller sign underneath mentions "Minster Baywatch," there is confusion about who is managing the car park, who is responsible for enforcing the terms, and who has the authority to issue a Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

Since there are different interpretations of who the contractual party is (Bransby Wilson or Minster Baywatch), the CRA 2015 requires that any ambiguity be resolved in favour of the consumer. You simply argue that the unclear signage invalidates any contract allegedly formed with Minster Baywatch.

Request evidence that Minster Baywatch has the right to enforce parking in the car park, given the prominence of Bransby Wilson's branding. I will bet £100 that Minster Baywatch does not have a contractual right to issue PCNs in their own name that location. Put them to strict proof.

You can also include the other argument about "Pay and Stay" and the 24 hours. Whether that means you can enter and leave multiple times is ether specifically stated in the terms (it doesn't appear to be) or it isn't. Again, ambiguity in the contract.

Throw the CRA 2015 Section 69 at the POPLA assessor and let them argue why they do or do not accept it. If they don't, so what? A POPLA negative decision is not binding on you.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 02, 2025, 10:19:09 am
Here are the important bits from their reply! https://imgur.com/a/sugvsHb

I have about 10 more days to submit my POPLA appeal.


Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: H C Andersen on January 01, 2025, 05:10:08 pm
Post their letter of rejection pl.

Your* appeal will focus on Code of Practice issues and therefore we need to know who the hell's name is on the letter and all other matters regarding who's who in this saga.

By when must your appeal be submitted?
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on January 01, 2025, 11:58:28 am
Hope someone can help me with this despite the (unintended) mistake of appealing it with the wrong reasons!
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 30, 2024, 09:48:29 pm
?

We have also included the sites payment log having
searched the incorrect vehicle registration mentioned in your appeal which you used to make payment
on 22/11/2024 and which matches the evidence you provided and confirms that no payment was made
for 23/11/2024. The ANPR log has also been included confirming the vehicle in question was on site on
22/11/2024 and exited on 22/11/2024 and returned on the contravening date of 23/11/2024 - a separate
visit to 22/11/2024. We have also included the payment log for both the contravening vehicle
registration and for the incorrect vehicle registration mentioned in your appeal.


So if the only car involved on 22nd and 23rd was VRM 123 and they say that only one VRM is attached to the parking rights, namely VRM 567, then why didn't they issue 2 PCNs, one for 22 and another for 23rd?

Are you positive that the 'wrong' VRM was entered on 22nd?

Yes, VRM 123 entered the carpark on 22/1, but ABC 987 was the reg that was mistakenly used for the payment. VRM exited the carpark on 22/1 and re-entered/exited on 23/1.

No idea why they didn't issue two PCNs if they claim there are two issues here, which is wrong reg (hence non-payment) AND re-entering carpark without another payment.

I am confused myself now......
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: H C Andersen on December 30, 2024, 06:26:11 pm
?

We have also included the sites payment log having
searched the incorrect vehicle registration mentioned in your appeal which you used to make payment
on 22/11/2024 and which matches the evidence you provided and confirms that no payment was made
for 23/11/2024. The ANPR log has also been included confirming the vehicle in question was on site on
22/11/2024 and exited on 22/11/2024 and returned on the contravening date of 23/11/2024 - a separate
visit to 22/11/2024. We have also included the payment log for both the contravening vehicle
registration and for the incorrect vehicle registration mentioned in your appeal.


So if the only car involved on 22nd and 23rd was VRM 123 and they say that only one VRM is attached to the parking rights, namely VRM 567, then why didn't they issue 2 PCNs, one for 22 and another for 23rd?

Are you positive that the 'wrong' VRM was entered on 22nd?
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 30, 2024, 04:31:05 pm
It is indeed rather confusing – my case that is!

So what happened in brief was:

1. Paid for 24 hour parking from 22/11 to 23/11 BUT under the wrong reg (previous car reg).
2. Exited carpark, returned 23/11 in the same car (still within 24 hours).

Strangely, Minster Parking did not offer the 20quid keying error discount, but now is also going on about our return on the 23/11 as being a separate entry, when it clearly covers 24 hours.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: H C Andersen on December 30, 2024, 12:30:46 pm
 You are compiling an appeal for the purposes of a POPLA hearing. IMO, start at the beginning and don't launch into lecturing the assessor on the law. How could they apply the law anyway when you haven't set out the facts?

I am the owner of car VRM 123. The vehicle was parked at the location on 22 Nov. and parking rights were purchased for 24 hours expiring at 7.34pm 23 Nov. This is confirmed by ** in their letter dated *** rejecting my appeal.

At *** on 22 Nov. VRM 123 left the site and returned at 9.12am on 23 Nov.

..and this is where your account is a little fuzzy...

...when VRM 123 returned to the site on 23rd and for reasons best known to themselves the driver purchased parking rights when none was needed as they intended to leave and did leave before 7.34pm. This seems to be the root of the problem because not only did the driver not need to purchase parking rights, they also had a brain fog and entered VRM 567, a vehicle which they'd previously owned, disposed of months before and which was not on site.

Therefore as matters of fact:
VRM 123 was entitled to park up to 7.34pm on 23 Nov;
VRM 123 entered the site at 9.12am 23 Nov;
Parking rights were purchased for VRM 567 on 23 Nov. when this vehicle wasn't on site.

The creditor's alleged breach is that VRM 123 was on site without the benefit of parking rights. But this is incorrect as parking rights were purchased on 22 Nov. and were still current at 10.35am 23 Nov. when the vehicle left the site.

Is this the factual background??
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 30, 2024, 09:38:06 am
Hi! Would appreciate some advice on my POPLA draft thanks so much!

And happy new year!
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 27, 2024, 10:19:18 pm
Hi, would this POPLA letter work? I had help from chat gpt but tweaked it further. Thank you!

1. Failure to Offer the £20 Major Keying Error Discount (Breach of the BPA SCoP)
The British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice (Single Code of Practice) specifies that operators must offer a £20 reduced charge in cases of major keying errors. Despite this, I was not given the opportunity to pay this discounted amount; I have written to Minster Baywatch with proof that I have entered the wrong reg, which is that of my previous car. I have attached proof of having parked in this carpark previously with that of my earlier car reg.
This is a clear violation of the SCoP, which sets out mandatory standards for fair treatment of motorists.
As the BPA Code of Practice has not been adhered to, this Parking Charge Notice should be deemed invalid.

2. Ambiguity in Terms Regarding Returns and Payment Coverage
The signage at this car park is ambiguous regarding the terms of parking, particularly on whether returns to the site are permitted.
The phrase "pay & stay" could be interpreted to mean that drivers must remain on-site after paying, prohibiting leaving and returning.
However, another term on the signage states that "any session must cover the entire duration any vehicle is on site." My payment did cover the full duration my vehicle was present on-site, thereby fulfilling the terms of parking.
This ambiguity in the signage creates uncertainty and unfairness for motorists, and as such, the terms should be interpreted in my favor, as required under consumer law.

3. Signage Discrepancy and Breach of the BPA/IPC Single Code of Practice (SCoP)
The signage at this location fails to comply with several key requirements outlined in the SCoP. Specifically:
Clause 3.1.3(c): Signs must clearly display the identity of the parking operator and their contact details. The prominent signage at this car park is branded with "Bransby Wilson," creating the impression that Bransby Wilson is the operator. There is no clear indication that Minster Baywatch is the operator responsible for enforcement.
Clause 3.1.3(i): Signage must be clear and unambiguous. The conflicting branding between Bransby Wilson and Minster Baywatch creates confusion regarding the operator's identity, in violation of this clause.
Clause 3.1.3(j): Signs must clearly display the parking charge for breaches of terms and conditions. The inconsistency between the signage undermines the clarity required under this clause.
The failure to meet these standards results in misleading information and an unenforceable contract.

4. Breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015)
The lack of clarity and conflicting signage also breaches the Consumer Rights Act 2015, particularly:
Section 62: A term is unfair if it creates a significant imbalance in the rights and obligations of the parties to the detriment of the consumer. The unclear signage creates such an imbalance by leaving motorists unable to determine which company they are contracting with or the applicable terms of parking.
Section 68: Written terms must be transparent, meaning they must be legible and understandable. The conflicting operator identities on the signage fail to meet this standard of transparency.
As a result, no valid contract exists between the driver and Minster Baywatch.

5. Ambiguity in Contract Formation
A valid contract requires clarity regarding the parties involved. The prominent signage branded with "Bransby Wilson" leads a reasonable driver to believe that Bransby Wilson is the operator managing the car park. The much smaller Minster Baywatch signage does not provide sufficient clarity to override this perception. Without clear and consistent signage, no enforceable contract exists between myself and Minster Baywatch.

6. Lack of Authority to Issue Parking Charges
To ensure compliance with the SCoP, I request that Minster Baywatch provide evidence of their authority to enforce parking charges at this site. Specifically:
A copy of the contract with the landowner granting Minster Baywatch the authority to issue PCNs.
Confirmation that the signage at the site complies with the requirements of Clause 3.1.3 of the SCoP, including operator identification and clarity.
If Minster Baywatch is unable to provide such evidence, this Parking Charge Notice must be deemed invalid.

I kindly request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel this Parking Charge Notice. Thank you for your time and careful consideration of my case.


Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: DWMB2 on December 18, 2024, 11:18:19 am
Show us a draft before submitting anything.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 18, 2024, 10:46:45 am
A couple of points as we explore what may be salvageable:

  • b789's points that were not included in the appeal to the operator can still be raised at POPLA
  • Have they offered a £20 major keying error discount? If not, you could raise their failure to do so as a breach of the SCoP
  • The use of the term "pay & stay" could be argued to mean that one must stay after paying (i.e. not leave and come back). However, the other terms state "any session must cover the entire duration any vehicle is on site", which, one could argue your payment did. Here you're essentially arguing that the terms are ambiguous regarding whether returns are permitted.

Thank you! No, they didn't offer the 20quid discount. I will raise these at POPLA now.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 18, 2024, 10:46:06 am
So you didn't bother to use the provided appeal. Why ask for advice then?

Yes, it's my fault as my partner didn't realise I was on it but he appealed in a fit of rage (at the parking company).
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: DWMB2 on December 17, 2024, 10:49:55 pm
A couple of points as we explore what may be salvageable:

Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on December 17, 2024, 10:32:01 pm
So you didn't bother to use the provided appeal. Why ask for advice then?
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 17, 2024, 09:37:02 pm
My partner, without my knowledge, went to appeal as the keeper on the basis of entering the wrong reg and provided them with two receipts from the same carpark bearing his old reg (the one which he entered instead of our current car). Of course the appeal got rejected (the long-ass reply attached here:

Or the gist of it here:

"Further to your appeal received on 17/12/2024 regarding the above charge, we note your comments;
however, when this charge was issued this vehicle was in contravention of the agreed terms and
conditions for all users of this site.

Your appeal has been reviewed along with all evidence gathered at the time of the breach of the site
rules.

There is a contract to enter this site, as stipulated by signage located around the car park, which clearly
states a valid payment is required for using the site, a valid fee must cover the duration of parking. Your
vehicle was observed to contravene this condition. After having thoroughly examined the payment
records for the date and times in question, we can find no payment having been made for your vehicle
or a vehicle with a similar registration for the contravention date.

We note your appeal and evidence provided showing a payment made for the day before for a different vehicle registration however as this vehicle was on site on the day before (22/11/2024) and also exited the site on the day before, a payment to cover the date in question (23/11/2024) was required to be made for the vehicle upon returning to the site on this date as any session must cover the entire duration any vehicle is on site.

Please find attached site signage for reference.

We have also included the sites payment log having
searched the incorrect vehicle registration mentioned in your appeal which you used to make payment
on 22/11/2024 and which matches the evidence you provided and confirms that no payment was made
for 23/11/2024. The ANPR log has also been included confirming the vehicle in question was on site on
22/11/2024 and exited on 22/11/2024 and returned on the contravening date of 23/11/2024 - a separate
visit to 22/11/2024. We have also included the payment log for both the contravening vehicle
registration and for the incorrect vehicle registration mentioned in your appeal.

We are therefore unable to cancel the charge as it was issued correctly."

First of all, we paid to park for 24 hours, from 22/11 734pm to 23/11 734pm. However the NTK was for the car's entry on 23/11 at 912am, exiting at 23/11 1035am. This still holds true even if the wrong reg was entered (which of course we didn't know then). I can't really make out what they are saying to be honest. Are they saying that we are not allowed to exit and re-enter within 24 hours despite having paid for it?

I know we've taken the wrong step. Feel free to reprimand me!!! Is this case still salvageable? We're at the POPLA stage now which I know is useless anyway.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 09, 2024, 06:44:47 pm
Do not for a moment imagine that you are dealing with an organisation that has any culture of customer service. These companies all originated from ex-clampers who found out that it is more respectable to scam motorists without having to get their hands dirty, thanks to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

They are single-mindedly interested in only one thing, how easy it is to scam money from all the "mugs" out there who have little to no idea about their rights and the law when it comes to parking tickets. This is legalised scamming.

These unregulated private parking companies issue over 41,000 PCNs a day. Yes... a day! Combined, they are a multi billion pound business that pays no VAT and is hugely profitable.

They rely on the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who have little to no idea about how this all works and they can easily scare most victims into at least paying them the "mugs discount" rate and for the rest, they use Debt Recovery Agents (DRAs) to scare the rest into paying the inflated fee as huge numbers of their victims ignorantly believe that these DRAs can send round bailiffs and issue CCJs. They can't but that doesn't stop huge numbers of "mugs" feeding their greed.

So, you can try and appeal to their good nature, which we know doesn't work or you can play them at their own game and outmanoeuvre them on the legal battlefield. The choice is yours. The experience is ours.

Thanks for this reminder and wakeup call, I should know better, considering it's my 3rd PCN!!!

I will use appeal using the advice you provided, thank you.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on December 09, 2024, 06:33:58 pm
Do not for a moment imagine that you are dealing with an organisation that has any culture of customer service. These companies all originated from ex-clampers who found out that it is more respectable to scam motorists without having to get their hands dirty, thanks to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

They are single-mindedly interested in only one thing, how easy it is to scam money from all the "mugs" out there who have little to no idea about their rights and the law when it comes to parking tickets. This is legalised scamming.

These unregulated private parking companies issue over 41,000 PCNs a day. Yes... a day! Combined, they are a multi billion pound business that pays no VAT and is hugely profitable.

They rely on the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who have little to no idea about how this all works and they can easily scare most victims into at least paying them the "mugs discount" rate and for the rest, they use Debt Recovery Agents (DRAs) to scare the rest into paying the inflated fee as huge numbers of their victims ignorantly believe that these DRAs can send round bailiffs and issue CCJs. They can't but that doesn't stop huge numbers of "mugs" feeding their greed.

So, you can try and appeal to their good nature, which we know doesn't work or you can play them at their own game and outmanoeuvre them on the legal battlefield. The choice is yours. The experience is ours.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: DWMB2 on December 09, 2024, 06:23:54 pm
Quote
why would they not accept an appeal
Because they don't make money from accepting appeals
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 09, 2024, 06:19:39 pm
Thank you for this, as always!!! Much, much appreciated.

I was just wondering though, why would they not accept an appeal based on the fact that it was a genuine mistake of entering the wrong reg, and since payment was made, there was no financial loss?


Here is a suitable appeal to Mister Baywatch:

Quote
Appeal against Parking Charge Notice – Reference [Insert PCN Number]
Date: [Insert Date]
Vehicle Registration: [Insert Registration Number]

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing as the Keeper of the vehicle to formally appeal the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) referenced above. I dispute the validity of this PCN for the following reasons:

1. Signage Discrepancy and Breach of the Single Code of Practice (SCoP)
The BPA/IPC Single Code of Practice (SCoP) sets clear standards for signage at parking sites to ensure clarity and fairness for motorists. Relevant sections include:

• Clause 3.1.3(c): Signs within controlled land must clearly display the identity of the parking operator and their contact details. In this case, the prominent signage is branded with "Bransby Wilson," with no clear indication that Minster Baywatch is the operator responsible for enforcement.

• Clause 3.1.3(i): Signage must be clear and unambiguous. The conflicting signage creates confusion about which company is responsible for enforcement, violating this requirement.

• Clause 3.1.3(j): Signs must clearly display the parking charge for breaches of terms and conditions. The inconsistency between the signage undermines the clarity required under this clause.

The failure to meet these requirements results in misleading information and an unenforceable contract.

2. Breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015)

The lack of clarity and conflicting signage also breaches the Consumer Rights Act 2015, particularly:

• Section 62: A term is unfair if it causes a significant imbalance in the rights and obligations of the parties to the detriment of the consumer. The unclear signage creates such an imbalance, as drivers cannot reasonably determine which company they are contracting with.

• Section 68: Written terms must be transparent, meaning they must be legible and understandable. The conflicting operator identities on the signage at this location fail to meet this standard.

As a result, no valid contract exists between the driver and Minster Baywatch.

3. Ambiguity in Contract Formation

A valid contract requires clarity regarding the parties involved. The prominent signage branded with "Bransby Wilson" leads a reasonable driver to believe that Bransby Wilson is the operator managing the car park. The secondary, much smaller Minster Baywatch signage does not provide sufficient clarity to override this perception, rendering the purported contract void.

4. Authority to Issue Parking Charges

To ensure compliance with the Single Code of Practice, I request that Minster Baywatch provide evidence of their authority to enforce parking charges at this site. Specifically:

• A copy of the contract with the landowner granting Minster Baywatch the authority to issue PCNs.
• Confirmation that the signage complies with the requirements of Clause 3.1.3 of the SCoP, including operator identification and clarity.

5. Request for Cancellation

Given the breaches of the Single Code of Practice, the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and the lack of clear contractual terms, I request that this PCN be cancelled immediately.

Should you reject this appeal, I formally request:

• A detailed response addressing all points raised in this appeal.
• A copy of the evidence requested above, including the contract with the landowner and proof of signage compliance.
• A POPLA code to allow me to escalate this matter to the independent adjudicator.

This appeal is submitted in good faith as the registered Keeper of the vehicle. Please direct all correspondence regarding this matter to me.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Full Name]
[Your Contact Details]
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: b789 on December 09, 2024, 01:44:29 pm
Here is a suitable appeal to Mister Baywatch:

Quote
Appeal against Parking Charge Notice – Reference [Insert PCN Number]
Date: [Insert Date]
Vehicle Registration: [Insert Registration Number]

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing as the Keeper of the vehicle to formally appeal the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) referenced above. I dispute the validity of this PCN for the following reasons:

1. Signage Discrepancy and Breach of the Single Code of Practice (SCoP)
The BPA/IPC Single Code of Practice (SCoP) sets clear standards for signage at parking sites to ensure clarity and fairness for motorists. Relevant sections include:

• Clause 3.1.3(c): Signs within controlled land must clearly display the identity of the parking operator and their contact details. In this case, the prominent signage is branded with "Bransby Wilson," with no clear indication that Minster Baywatch is the operator responsible for enforcement.

• Clause 3.1.3(i): Signage must be clear and unambiguous. The conflicting signage creates confusion about which company is responsible for enforcement, violating this requirement.

• Clause 3.1.3(j): Signs must clearly display the parking charge for breaches of terms and conditions. The inconsistency between the signage undermines the clarity required under this clause.

The failure to meet these requirements results in misleading information and an unenforceable contract.

2. Breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015)

The lack of clarity and conflicting signage also breaches the Consumer Rights Act 2015, particularly:

• Section 62: A term is unfair if it causes a significant imbalance in the rights and obligations of the parties to the detriment of the consumer. The unclear signage creates such an imbalance, as drivers cannot reasonably determine which company they are contracting with.

• Section 68: Written terms must be transparent, meaning they must be legible and understandable. The conflicting operator identities on the signage at this location fail to meet this standard.

As a result, no valid contract exists between the driver and Minster Baywatch.

3. Ambiguity in Contract Formation

A valid contract requires clarity regarding the parties involved. The prominent signage branded with "Bransby Wilson" leads a reasonable driver to believe that Bransby Wilson is the operator managing the car park. The secondary, much smaller Minster Baywatch signage does not provide sufficient clarity to override this perception, rendering the purported contract void.

4. Authority to Issue Parking Charges

To ensure compliance with the Single Code of Practice, I request that Minster Baywatch provide evidence of their authority to enforce parking charges at this site. Specifically:

• A copy of the contract with the landowner granting Minster Baywatch the authority to issue PCNs.
• Confirmation that the signage complies with the requirements of Clause 3.1.3 of the SCoP, including operator identification and clarity.

5. Request for Cancellation

Given the breaches of the Single Code of Practice, the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and the lack of clear contractual terms, I request that this PCN be cancelled immediately.

Should you reject this appeal, I formally request:

• A detailed response addressing all points raised in this appeal.
• A copy of the evidence requested above, including the contract with the landowner and proof of signage compliance.
• A POPLA code to allow me to escalate this matter to the independent adjudicator.

This appeal is submitted in good faith as the registered Keeper of the vehicle. Please direct all correspondence regarding this matter to me.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Full Name]
[Your Contact Details]
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: mickR on December 09, 2024, 10:57:24 am
ah ok (btw no idea where "doe" savers came from) ???
confusing signage
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 09, 2024, 10:54:42 am
I obviously need to visit doe savers as I can only see Minster Baywatch mentioned

My apologies, Brannby Wilson is in the top signage, and Minster Baywatch at the bottom https://imgur.com/a/Bol1Hrh
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: mickR on December 09, 2024, 10:43:08 am
I obviously need to visit doe savers as I can only see Minster Baywatch mentioned
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 09, 2024, 10:28:47 am
where?

At the bottom of the smaller yellow signage https://imgur.com/a/q9ncHwW
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: mickR on December 09, 2024, 09:34:27 am
where?
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 09, 2024, 09:14:59 am
However, the yellow signage under the bigger signage does have Branby Wilson in it

https://imgur.com/a/q9ncHwW
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 09, 2024, 09:08:19 am
Hi, the signage is indeed still Branby Wilson, latest image here: https://imgur.com/a/Bol1Hrh

How should I proceed from here? Thanks a lot!

Before we get onto other matters, paying for parking but entering an entirely wrong VRM is considered a 'major keying error' in the Sector Single Code of Practice. If this error is pointed out, a reduced charge of £20 should be offered.

If you would rather pay nothing and are up for a fight, read on...

You should confirm if that signage is still there now.

This is common with Minster Baywatch cases. The parking charge notice says that Minster Baywatch Ltd are the creditor, but the contractual signage at the site bears the name Branby Wilson - therefore any contract that was formed was formed between the driver and Branby Wilson, not Minster Baywatch. Have a search for Branby Wilson and Minster Baywatch cases on the MSE parking forum and you'll see many examples of this.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: DWMB2 on December 06, 2024, 12:17:02 pm
Before we get onto other matters, paying for parking but entering an entirely wrong VRM is considered a 'major keying error' in the Sector Single Code of Practice. If this error is pointed out, a reduced charge of £20 should be offered.

If you would rather pay nothing and are up for a fight, read on...

You should confirm if that signage is still there now.

This is common with Minster Baywatch cases. The parking charge notice says that Minster Baywatch Ltd are the creditor, but the contractual signage at the site bears the name Branby Wilson - therefore any contract that was formed was formed between the driver and Branby Wilson, not Minster Baywatch. Have a search for Branby Wilson and Minster Baywatch cases on the MSE parking forum and you'll see many examples of this.
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 06, 2024, 11:55:49 am
Do you have photos of the signage at the site? If not, are you able to easily acquire some?

Yes, this is from 2022

https://woldsweekly.co.uk/dww/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/msh2242x283-1024x682.jpg
Title: Re: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: DWMB2 on December 06, 2024, 11:35:42 am
Do you have photos of the signage at the site? If not, are you able to easily acquire some?
Title: PCN from Minster Baywatch (paid parking but entered wrong reg)
Post by: phlegmborough2 on December 06, 2024, 11:25:14 am
Hi everyone,

Behold, my third PCN in as many months...

Basically I paid for parking but used my previous reg (got a new car a few months ago) instead of my current car.

I have receipt for paying for the parking, as well as older receipts with my old reg at the same carpark.

Can I appeal on the basis on this being a genuine mistake?

(I know it's highly doubtful, but I'm bored of these @^&#^!@#^& fines now)

Thanks!

NTK here: https://imgur.com/a/wGuFrZw