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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: jacoscar on August 19, 2023, 02:19:10 pm

Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: cp8759 on November 04, 2023, 03:28:33 pm
If the council accepted that the driver was informed that 'no payment was required' where does the requirement to pay come from
The adjudicator appears to have taken the view that the requirement comes from the signage (and it was accepted that the signage required payment), and that having found that the app didn't work, the appellant should have attempted to pay by other means i.e. by calling the number provided.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on November 02, 2023, 03:31:35 pm
Video (different link to the one sent to the council)

https://imgur.com/a/nRAerLZ
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: H C Andersen on November 02, 2023, 11:41:21 am
I cannot reconcile these elements of the decision with the OP's reps:(crossed with the preceding post)

'..the council was willing to accept Mr ****'s factual account of what happened'.

That account if I remember correctly was that the app informed the driver that payment was not required. I understand that this applied both before and after 8am.

'.. Mr **** did not make a reasonable effort to use the alternative means of payment, as advised on the payment machine.'

If the council accepted that the driver was informed that 'no payment was required' where does the requirement to pay come from, let alone how indicated on a payment machine?

How could any adjudicator reasonably make these findings in the context of the appellant's undisputed evidence, or wasn't this evidence as clear as I think?
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: Grant Urismo on November 02, 2023, 11:26:24 am
The decision makes no mention whatsoever of the app saying parking was free at a time when when it wasn't, which I think is a very important point that the adjudicator ought to have ruled on. Fundamentally, the council can't trick people into not paying by saying it's free, and then issue a PCN.

If the view count on the video is still zero then neither the adjudicator or the council has viewed crucial evidence that shows they did this, which I believe meets the (rather high) bar for asking for a review of the adjudicator's decision.

A carefully crafted request for a review on the grounds that the adjudicator erred in law by dismissing the video as "irrelevant or unnecessary evidence" without viewing it, when in fact it proves the argument made for promissory estoppel (that's legalese for going back on a promise) might work, especially if all you ask the Chief Adjudicator to do is to very narrowly consider and rule on the single unadressed issue of the video demonstrating promisory estoppel. Arguing that the interests of justice cannot have been served if someone presents evidence they claim proves their innocence and both council and adjudicator dismiss that evidence it without even looking at seems a strong grounds for review to me, and I think the Chief Adjudicator would have a hard time justifying a response of 'I'm going to dismiss it without looking at it too'.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: DancingDad on November 02, 2023, 09:11:16 am
There are lots of examples around.
Used to be simple, park, put some coins in the parking meter by the bay.
Then it became pay at machine and sometimes the machine wasn't that evident.
Plus having to display a P&D ticket that could flutter or fall
Then Pay by Phone...call a number on a poor line and try to follow the metal mickey menu while inputting a card number.
Then parking apps.
Add in parking vouchers that some places used...which you had to purchase from a local shop.
Different parking apps that work different ways.
And places like Barnet where it is only card or app payment.
And places where payment machines are often vandalised or don't work or don't exist despite signs saying pay at machine with a direction arrow.

In general, councils will always want their pound of flesh if someone hasn't paid, they seem to believe that drivers must exhaust every option.
Adjudicators are usually more open to accepting that genuine efforts had been made but frustrated.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on November 02, 2023, 08:43:28 am
This makes me think: what if (hypothetically) all machines accepting coins were not working (or saying "parking is free"), the pay-by-phone wasn't working, but the app was. Would you be expected to try all available options until you find one that works? Would it be reasonable to expect an elderly person to have to download an app?
What if none of the three options worked? Could you be excused to park there without paying or would you have to move the car anyway?
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: DancingDad on November 02, 2023, 08:33:48 am
Well, I would think that argument is demolished the moment I step out of the car without paying, despite the number of payment options available and despite the fact they could all be ‘not working’

There is a difference between relying on the information given on the app (repeatedly given) and saying that you would not have paid even if you had gone to the machine.
One is saying that you were misled by the information provided by the authority, the second is saying that if the app isn't working you aren't going to pay anyway.

May seem a minor difference but minor differences can be important.

TBH I think you should have won anyway, to me when you tried to pay and were repeatedly told it was free, that should have been enough.
But cannot account for the vagaries of adjudicators or what they will seize on.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on November 02, 2023, 07:42:48 am
Well, I would think that argument is demolished the moment I step out of the car without paying, despite the number of payment options available and despite the fact they could all be ‘not working’
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: DancingDad on November 02, 2023, 07:27:58 am
......
What the decision doesn't show is that the adjudicator asked about the cash option and unfortunately jacoscar said that he doesn't carry cash so even if he'd been aware of that option, he wouldn't have used it anyway. Obviously I cannot coach people on what to say (or not say) when giving evidence.

What’s wrong with that? I cannot use cash if I don’t carry it around

It demolished the "wilful" argument, even if the adjudicator was minded to accept.

It has long been established that not having cash or even the right change is not an excuse for delaying payment, adjudicators taking the view that if you cannot pay for parking when you park you should leave the parking place.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on November 02, 2023, 07:00:16 am
Everything I read there seems, essentially, intended to put Mr Murray-Smith "in his place". Is this an unbiased adjudication ? I don't think so. Absolutely nothing was said about being unable to pay to park before the pay-to-park hours commenced; a major omission, surely ?
I don't really agree with that. It very much opens the door for the fact that if highly relevant / contentious evidence is provided by means of a link and it's not considered, that could be a procedural impropriety.

What the decision doesn't show is that the adjudicator asked about the cash option and unfortunately jacoscar said that he doesn't carry cash so even if he'd been aware of that option, he wouldn't have used it anyway. Obviously I cannot coach people on what to say (or not say) when giving evidence.

What’s wrong with that? I cannot use cash if I don’t carry it around
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: Incandescent on November 01, 2023, 11:51:27 pm
Everything I read there seems, essentially, intended to put Mr Murray-Smith "in his place". Is this an unbiased adjudication ? I don't think so. Absolutely nothing was said about being unable to pay to park before the pay-to-park hours commenced; a major omission, surely ?
I don't really agree with that. It very much opens the door for the fact that if highly relevant / contentious evidence is provided by means of a link and it's not considered, that could be a procedural impropriety.

What the decision doesn't show is that the adjudicator asked about the cash option and unfortunately jacoscar said that he doesn't carry cash so even if he'd been aware of that option, he wouldn't have used it anyway. Obviously I cannot coach people on what to say (or not say) when giving evidence.
Well, I still think the decision, and its logic, stinks !
But anyway, one cannot win them all.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: cp8759 on November 01, 2023, 11:08:13 pm
Everything I read there seems, essentially, intended to put Mr Murray-Smith "in his place". Is this an unbiased adjudication ? I don't think so. Absolutely nothing was said about being unable to pay to park before the pay-to-park hours commenced; a major omission, surely ?
I don't really agree with that. It very much opens the door for the fact that if highly relevant / contentious evidence is provided by means of a link and it's not considered, that could be a procedural impropriety.

What the decision doesn't show is that the adjudicator asked about the cash option and unfortunately jacoscar said that he doesn't carry cash so even if he'd been aware of that option, he wouldn't have used it anyway. Obviously I cannot coach people on what to say (or not say) when giving evidence.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: DancingDad on November 01, 2023, 07:35:40 pm
Very much in hindsight but I wonder if the emphasis was relying upon the app saying it was free and that a driver is entitled to rely on information given, whether on signs, authorised official or in this case the App that the council sanctions, would have brought a different result.

Doubt we will know.

Sorry OP, we try but cannot win them all.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: Incandescent on November 01, 2023, 06:30:37 pm
Everything I read there seems, essentially, intended to put Mr Murray-Smith "in his place". Is this an unbiased adjudication ? I don't think so. Absolutely nothing was said about being unable to pay to park before the pay-to-park hours commenced; a major omission, surely ?
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: cp8759 on November 01, 2023, 12:36:42 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1zqyrzzo0-rJKxwIJWXk9wuJPQeJAohox), we can't win them all unfortunately.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on September 25, 2023, 08:43:27 am
Well they've failed to consider all the evidence as they haven't watched the video, which still has a count view of zero:

(https://i.imgur.com/KYyl32m.png)

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal? I think we have them dead to rights.

yes, please!
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: DancingDad on September 24, 2023, 11:47:25 pm
I take HCA'a point that the message (parking is free) is critical and indeed satisfies my concern on why you didn't pay with any alternative means.
If an official provider that is council approved is consistently saying parking is free, why would anyone even approach the machine?
I don't agree that the willful avoidance of payment has little chance, their words require it to be willful and you have decent proof that you tried to pay
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: cp8759 on September 24, 2023, 04:30:32 pm
Well they've failed to consider all the evidence as they haven't watched the video, which still has a count view of zero:

(https://i.imgur.com/KYyl32m.png)

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal? I think we have them dead to rights.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: H C Andersen on September 23, 2023, 04:08:25 pm
OP, let's get back to what I consider is the key issue.

I don't think you would succeed with the 'did not wilfully' for the very reason that there are alternative payment methods which you positively chose not to use. Therefore, if there was a requirement to pay then you were at fault.But include it if you wish, but I would do so after the following argument.

I've put this in bold because you posted:

 I tried again to pay (around 8:05am) and the officer said to do it outside because they don't get good signal inside, the app still didn't let me pay ("parking is currently free"). Midway through my appointment the officer reminded me about the parking and suggested I went outside to try and pay again; it still didn't let me ("parking is currently free"), for peace of mind I took a screen recording on my phone and I also mentioned this to the police officer (which said: "if you took a screenshot you'll probably be fine"); I didn't know at the time (around 8:34).

The issue is therefore that whereas on the one hand the sign required payment you have evidence from their service provider that payment was not required. The authority have wilfully missed this point and banged on about alternative methods. But these only apply IF there is a requirement to pay.

Just as it's not a motorist's task to traipse the streets double-checking whether there are signs which contradict the one where they've parked then IMO the same applies here.
Your video is so rapid that I can't stop it at each frame, but you say that RingGo gave the consistent message of parking is free at just before 8am, approx. 8.05 and again at 8.34.

But they ignored this.

I suspect you'll appeal, in which case throw in procedural impropriety. The NOR fails to notify you of the following mandatory elements:
The adjudicator's power to accept an appeal submitted late;
The grounds on which costs may be awarded against either party.

Referring you to a telephone number or a website is b******s IMO. If this was acceptable, then they shouldn't feel compelled to include anything other than a website address. But they do, because it's the law.
It's not their right to decide on the importance of the various elements of the mandatory information and which parts should or should not be included in a NOR, parliament has done this for them.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on September 23, 2023, 02:03:59 pm
I have just received a notice of rejection
It seems like they are still repeating themselves
https://imgur.com/a/4NaQJp2

Did they watch the video?
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on September 13, 2023, 09:24:50 am
Thank you very much you're a star!. I have just sent the representation and I haven't opened the link
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: cp8759 on September 10, 2023, 08:17:57 pm
Draft reps:

Dear Warwickshire County Council,

In the first instance I rely on my informal representations, as I sought to explain there I made a concerted and repeated effort to pay the appropriate parking charge and it is the inadequacy of the council's systems that prevented me from doing so.

To expand on that, I had an appointment at 8am with the police to give a statement about a crime; I parked in front of the police station at about 7:55 and attempted to pay for parking; payment for parking is required only 8am-6pm. I normally pay by app (RingGo), I hoped I could pay for 1 hour and that it would start rolling at 8am, so I would be covered until 9am. However, when I attempted it, the app said "parking is currently free" and it didn't let me.

Before entering the police station to give my statement, I tried again to pay (around 8:05am) and the officer said to do it outside because they don't get good signal inside, the app still didn't let me pay ("parking is currently free"). Midway through my appointment the officer reminded me about the parking and suggested I went outside to try and pay again; it still didn't let me ("parking is currently free"), for peace of mind I took a screen recording on my phone which has been placed at (link)

I didn't know at the time (around 8:34), but the penalty charge had already been issued. I only found out at around 9am that there was a PCN on the windscreen (issued at 8:20).

Most authorities across the country provide both pay & display and telephone payment facilities that allow payment prior to the controlled hours, because for instance if one parks at 6 am it would be absurd to require someone to hang around at the parking place until 8 am in order to effect payment at that time. Indeed, there are many areas with daytime charge and pay & display machines where one can buy a pay and display ticket the night before with a start time of 8 am (or whenever the charges begin), so in this instance the root cause of the issue is the inadequacy of the council's parking systems.

All that being said, I draw your attention to The Warwickshire County Council (District of Warwick) (Civil Enforcement Area) (Waiting Restrictions, On Street Parking Places and Residents Parking) (Consolidation) Order 2017 which provides at article 13(4) that:

Any person who wilfully avoids or seeks to avoid or assists in avoiding the payment of the specified charge for parking shall be guilty of contravening this Order.

Quite plainly the council has no hope of showing that I avoided or sought to avoid making payment, on the contrary I made repeated efforts to effect payment and it is the council's use of a payment system that is not fit for purpose that thwarted those attempts. While it is true that usually such contraventions do not include an element of mens rea, you have chosen to draft the traffic order in such a manner that an element of intent is required for a contravention to occur. Applying the principle of contra proferentem, the council cannot avoid the consequences of the wording it chose when drafting the traffic order.

As I did not wilfully avoid or seek to avoid payment, I am not guilty of contravening your traffic order, so the penalty charge notice must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully


I will send you a link to the video to put into the representation, do not click on that link. The reason is that if the view count is zero by the time you get a notice of rejection, we then have proof that they've failed to consider all of the supporting evidence submitted, which is a procedural impropriety. If the notice of rejection says they've carefully considered the representations, we've also got them for lying.

Lastly don't use the text box on the council website for the representation, rather put the representation in the PDF and in the text box where they want you to write the representation, just say something like "see attached PDF".
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on September 09, 2023, 02:51:16 pm
Remaining pages

https://imgur.com/a/aE8GppU

Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: John U.K. on September 09, 2023, 02:48:42 pm
Please post up remaining page(s).
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on September 09, 2023, 11:33:24 am
Notice to owner received

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: Incandescent on September 08, 2023, 12:40:54 pm
The usual FOb-Off letter from the council. They actually admit in so many words thatif you arrive before 8 am and want to park into the pay hours, you have to wait around until that time is reached. It is really quite absurd.

If it were me, I'd take them all the way on this one.  A typical thick and stupid parking department that we see so often.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: spaceman on September 08, 2023, 12:31:22 pm
I would think a word with the policeman should get you a note giving on the instruction of police exemption validity even if that instruction was only implied
No such exemption was implied.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: DancingDad on September 08, 2023, 11:34:14 am
A couple of elements in their reply bother me.

First is their opening paragraph that under the 2004 act they can only treat your enquiry as an informal rep..... What did you send to them?

The second is their comment that you should have used the payment machine.
And there seems to be one
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2881115,-1.5329046,3a,66.6y,75.55h,97.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1see9NoHsLU4Tys4LihOTjYg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
That may need to be addressed in the future.

However, taking CP's point... the order says:-13(4)
"Any person who wilfully avoids or seeks to avoid or assists in avoiding the
payment of the specified charge for parking shall be guilty of contravening this
Order. "
The last thing that anyone can say is that you willfully avoided or sought to avoid payment.
On the contrary, you made every effort in using the council sanctioned app and the app would not let you pay.
This is akin to a P&D machine spitting your coins back out.
In any further challenge, the council should be asked to explain how you willfully avoided payment.
It can be inferred if someone ignores the requirement to pay but not when there are recorded efforts to pay.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: Pastmybest on September 08, 2023, 10:29:39 am
I would think a word with the policeman should get you a note giving on the instruction of police exemption validity even if that instruction was only implied
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: cp8759 on September 08, 2023, 10:01:14 am
The Warwickshire County Council (District of Warwick) (Civil Enforcement Area) (Waiting Restrictions, On Street Parking Places and Residents Parking) (Consolidation) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1UXVozmctrTuBJlzuOkUaEzUVk1EI9knJ)

The Warwickshire County Council (District of Warwick) (Civil Enforcement Area) (Waiting Restrictions, On Street Parking Places and Residents Parking) (Consolidation) (Variation No. 3) (Part) Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1NtRSy-sO71qfIIyScSOW9kH_gwCdkcmX)

Map tile FY60 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1OBeoiTaCQXLcoHlc2j4eySBvuw_0v71s)
Map tile FY61 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1v-xdbHpY_efmNdPOP0V7DXeSgKG8Uj5q)

The traffic order has some interesting wording about avoidance of payment having to be deliberate, which somewhat exceptionally creates an element of mens rea for a contravention to be made out.
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on September 05, 2023, 02:04:16 pm
thanks, here is the video

https://imgur.com/a/vJiUgY6
Title: Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: cp8759 on August 26, 2023, 05:56:45 pm
Please let us know when you get the notice to owner.

Are you able to share the screen recording with us? If you don't want to post it publicly, by all means PM me a link.

I have also requested the traffic order and the parking logs for this date, if there was a fault with the system the logs should confirm this.
Title: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
Post by: jacoscar on August 19, 2023, 02:19:10 pm
I had an appointment at 8am with the police to give a statement about a crime; I parked in front of the police station at about 7:55 and attempted to pay for parking; payment for parking is required only 8am-6pm. I normally pay by app (RingGo), I hoped I could pay for 1 hour and that it would start rolling at 8am, so I would be covered until 9am. However, when I attempted it, the app said "parking is currently free" and it didn't let me.  But instead, you are supposed to wait until 8:00am, pay, and then arrive at your appointment slightly late.
Before entering the police station to give my statement, I tried again to pay (around 8:05am) and the officer said to do it outside because they don't get good signal inside, the app still didn't let me pay ("parking is currently free"). Midway through my appointment the officer reminded me about the parking and suggested I went outside to try and pay again; it still didn't let me ("parking is currently free"), for peace of mind I took a screen recording on my phone and I also mentioned this to the police officer (which said: "if you took a screenshot you'll probably be fine"); I didn't know at the time (around 8:34), but the fine had already been issued. I only found out at around 9am that there was a PCN on the windscreen (issued at 8:20).

I immediatly challenged this online as I though it would be an easy one, so I wrote the following without giving it much thought:
Hello, I parked my car just before 8 am as I had an appointment with Warwickshire police at 8am.
I tried paying via the RingGo app but it wouldn’t let me because it said the parking was currently free. I tried again just after 8 and the app was still showing me the same message; I informed the officer I had an appointment with about this.
Half a way through my appointment he reminded me about the parking and he suggested me to get outside to get a better signal and pay. I still got the same message so I took a screen recording of it and gave up.

I wasn't able to upload a video, I'm not even sure if I managed to upload a photo. I thought that in case they wanted to see it I could provide it.

This was their answer


[attachment deleted by admin]