Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: BenD on December 04, 2024, 05:11:45 pm

Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 07, 2024, 11:46:57 am
Good point. It's just a numbers game for them. Harvest the low hanging fruit.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: b789 on December 07, 2024, 11:31:19 am
Please... these vermin issue over 41,000 PCNs a day! That's almost 15 MILLION PCNs a year.

Do you honestly believe that they have the time or inclination to employ someone to trawl the internet for mention of anyone seeking advice on how to deal with their scams?
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 07, 2024, 11:30:30 am
I will do. Thanks for all your help. It's been invaluable .
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 07, 2024, 11:22:39 am
Quote
Should you either now hide or delete this chat
We don't as a rule delete threads on here. The parking company are very unlikely to be trawling the forum, and even if they were, nothing in this thread would help their case.

Let us know when they respond to the appeal.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 07, 2024, 09:21:14 am
The Keeper will send a reply - in accordance with your draft thank you

Should you either now hide or delete this chat until after I get their response now in case they trawl this chat room for clues / or something?

I will of course share the response when we get it and can reactive it for everyone’s benefit then no? What do you advise?
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 05, 2024, 05:09:49 pm
I think we're at risk of over-complicating things if we delve into too much detail at this stage.

C.U.P know the score, and will know that they can't hold the keeper liable. If they've any sense, once the keeper appeals pointing this out (using the template already suggested), C.U.P will cancel. If they don't have any sense, and drag it to POPLA, we can produce a more detailed appeal that POPLA are very likely to uphold.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: H C Andersen on December 05, 2024, 04:59:39 pm
OP, thank you.

Clearly, CUP are one of a small group of BPA members which does NOT issue PoFA-compliant notices(it's not obligatory)..which is why the 'relevant period' doesn't apply. What they do is send out these speculative invoices with random legal references and hope to catch the unwary. They haven't posted an otherwise PoFA-compliant notice late, they're not looking to engage PoFA at all and therefore the only person who could be liable is the driver, hence repeated references to you excluding anything from your posts which could be used to deduce/guess at that person's identity.

Now that we know their MO, DWMB2's draft is more wide-ranging than mine and now I would be tempted to go further and perhaps this might be developed.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 05, 2024, 03:50:52 pm
Reverse of the PCN as requested

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 05, 2024, 03:50:13 pm
The priority is the keeper submitting the appeal along the lines of the one I suggested previously.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 05, 2024, 03:40:16 pm
Thank you b789 that’s clear now.

To the moderator I think it reads okay now and I understand the distinction.

If you feel any words need deleting or changing please do so.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 05, 2024, 02:25:24 pm
As the person who will be appealing (i.e. the keeper as I suggest above) is not the OP and was not driving, I'm not sure an edit is required, but I can if the OP particularly wants me to.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: b789 on December 05, 2024, 02:16:58 pm
Just to try and simplify some of your understanding... there is only the Keeper and the Driver. They are separate legal entities under contract law. The Driver is always liable for any charge. The Keeper can only be liable if they admit to being the Driver (no legal obligation to do so).

Your statement about being the "registered driver" means nothing and is only referring being a named driver on the insurance policy. With the owners permission, I could drive the car as long as my one insurance policy gives me third party coverage to drive other vehicles. There could be millions of people who could drive the car legally.


The parking company has no idea who was driving unless the Keeper blabs it, inadvertently or otherwise. So, that is why you were advised to edit your post as it gave away the identity of the driver (sort of). Ask the mod to edit it for you.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 05, 2024, 01:08:06 pm
I’m trying to modify my post as you’ve recommended however the modify post button which was there yesterday seems to have disappeared. Sorry but I’m not overly familiar with the forum type sites.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 05, 2024, 09:26:01 am
For clarity, as the notice is addressed to your partner, the appeal must be done in their name. They should appeal as the keeper only. H C Andersen's appeal above covers the main points, and I agree with brevity. I personally take a slightly different approach in that I think it's worthwhile mentioning the relevant legislation, as it helps demonstrate to the operator that you know what you are talking about. Here's my usual template appeal for these cases:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ________) for vehicle registration mark ____ ___, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("The Act"). You have chosen not to issue a Notice to Keeper in accordance with The Act, and it is now too late for you to do so.

There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,

If appealing online, be careful there are no drop down/tick boxes that cause you to identify who was driving, and keep a close eye on your spam folder for their response. If they do not respond within 28 days, chase them.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: H C Andersen on December 05, 2024, 09:13:24 am
For completeness, pl post the reverse side of the NTK.

Pl just read your posts again. The identity of the driver can easily be deduced. Pl just use 'the driver' and the 'keeper'. There is no 'I' in keeper!

This is important because the keeper cannot be held liable in lieu of the driver because the NTK was not served within the 'relevant period' specified in the Act for this purpose:


(4)The notice must be given by—

(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.


Dear Sir,
PCN ********

Thank you for your Notice to Keeper dated 2 December 2024 regarding an alleged breach of contract by the driver on 25 October. As the notice was not posted until 5 weeks after the period of parking ended, you have no legal basis on which to exercise the prospective right to hold the keeper liable.

I shall not be naming the driver and no inference may be drawn by you on this point. I should therefore be grateful if you would not ask for these details.

Given that I have no liability in this matter, please delete my personal data from your records.



YF

IMO, the keeper should keep it short, references to legal chapters and paragraphs are not necessary.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 05, 2024, 06:40:56 am
Yes.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 04, 2024, 09:46:52 pm
No... my partner is.
Is the notice addressed to your partner?
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 04, 2024, 09:36:14 pm
No... my partner is. I'm registered as a driver
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 04, 2024, 09:25:19 pm
Are you the registered keeper of the vehicle with the V5C document in your name?
Please answer this question so that we can advise on an appropriate appeal.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: H C Andersen on December 04, 2024, 09:01:06 pm
STOP referring to who was driving unless you want to hand victory to the creditor on a silver plate!
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 04, 2024, 08:45:23 pm
Thanks. Uploaded a new PCN.
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: DWMB2 on December 04, 2024, 07:09:25 pm
I've removed that attachment, please make the edits suggested above, and also upload a copy of the notice suitably redacted.

Are you the registered keeper of the vehicle with the V5C document in your name?
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: John U.K. on December 04, 2024, 06:50:45 pm
This will be moved to private parking. There please edit yr post so that  yr name & address sre redacted from the PCN .
Title: Re: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: H C Andersen on December 04, 2024, 06:42:04 pm
Remove all reference to who was driving.

'The driver did.. A, B ,C..'

Title: Private PCN time limit for Issuance
Post by: BenD on December 04, 2024, 05:11:45 pm
The driver parked on private land on 25/10/24.

They received a PCN from CUP Enforcement on 4/12/24, dated 02/12/24.

Driver would like to be advised if there is a 14 or 28 day time limit for issuing these?

Reportedly there was no notice on the vehicle at the time so was unaware of the contravention.

Pls advise if you can and apologies if this has been discussed before.[attach=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]