Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: tobesb on December 03, 2024, 09:39:14 pm
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MxQcmNpy22QU6vexkrjpOxC5D1nRfpLL/view).
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;D ;D ;D Decision tomorrow.
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Just to make a point. They adduced their evidence today. If I did so, or respond even today or tomorrow, the case would be automatically adjourned. So, I will ask for one anyway. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. ::)
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Adding all photos:
From their cameras
(https://i.ibb.co/3Yvd0z6h/ev2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/SXHmZsBY/ev.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/5hJ0k07L/ev3.jpg)
and their video:
https://youtu.be/H61uweb0fpY
My photos.
3rd Dec 2024:
(https://i.ibb.co/zVc03FtP/IMG-7295.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/LD7KGT4C/IMG-7296.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Psc1Sn5x/IMG-7297.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/p6Wn5Mys/IMG-7292.jpg)
Photos from 11th March 2025:
(https://i.ibb.co/Mxb8KbQT/image9.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ccZWp1HZ/image7.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/5W0RtdWK/image10.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/qLjxMxcY/image11.jpg)
Showing 5 of the 6 signs at entry to the road.
(https://i.ibb.co/5Wn7HkQf/image12.jpg)
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I will PM you now with my details and I will file the appeal too. Done.
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Dear Hippocrates,
I don't feel like being a mug. I would gladly take your help and advice regarding this matter and challenge further.
What are the next steps for appealing to the parking adjudicator please?
Toby
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Thank you Incandescent. Hippocrates mentioned a case that supports the argument of the proscribed sign: Conor Costelloe v London Borough of Merton Case No. 2240078999. But what in my view is rather markedly non-compliant is the legend "School term time" in a separate panel below the grey backed signage.
I'm rubbish at gambling. If it's 50:50 I'll probably pay. Just wondering if all are in agreement with you Incandescent?
Thank you for your help.
Toby
If you want to join The Mugged Club, please feel free to pay it and submit to this bullying. If you want my help and accept my advice, I will represent you free of charge and pay half if I lose.
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But what in my view is rather markedly non-compliant is the legend "School term time" in a separate panel below the grey backed signage.
Ah ! Sorry, missed that bit. Your appeal at LT just got a whole lot stronger, so probably worth taking them to London Tribunals.
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Thank you Incandescent. Hippocrates mentioned a case that supports the argument of the proscribed sign: Conor Costelloe v London Borough of Merton Case No. 2240078999. But what in my view is rather markedly non-compliant is the legend "School term time" in a separate panel below the grey backed signage.
I'm rubbish at gambling. If it's 50:50 I'll probably pay. Just wondering if all are in agreement with you Incandescent?
Thank you for your help.
Toby
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Except, of course, they cannot escape their duty adequately to sign a restriction. And that signage has to be from the traffic signs manual, not something they just think-up.
Of course it is your money not ours, and it would be something of a gamble at London Tribunals, because I'm not sure that all the adjudicators there are fully up-to-speed on signs.
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For convenience
(https://i.ibb.co/wNMWDJtW/reply00011708.png) (https://ibb.co/8D65Fzk5)
(https://i.ibb.co/B5KVt63g/reply200011708.png) (https://ibb.co/5gxW6j45)
(https://i.ibb.co/LDwHfXBF/reply300011708.png) (https://ibb.co/hx5wvJr6)
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Good afternoon,
I've two days left before the discount charge period is over. Is it likely that I could win by appealing to the Parking Adjudicator based on what the members have said here or would it be worth my while taking the discount charge?
Toby
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Good afternoon,
I've had a Notice of Rejection from Merton Council yesterday. I've attached the letter here: https://ibb.co/album/XZwbS5
Do I now make an appeal to the Parking Adjudicator? The form was also attached to the email.
Kind regards,
Toby
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Eek. I'm submitting tonight as it's the 14th day. However, there are too many characters for the Merton PCN appeal form. Below is an edited version that has 0 characters remaining (990 characters). Finally I'm not the registered keeper but I'm assuming I submit as the registered keeper.Once again, I just want to say how thankful I am to you for your help. It's been much appreciated.Best wishes, Toby
I challenge liability for PCN MT00119992 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.
The prescribed signs directly at the entrance to Southey Road are very hard to read from a car as they face perpendicular to the road.
On revisiting I notice there is a yellow sign on the approach, but this sign is not an advance warning or prescribed sign authorised by Schedule 12 to the Traffic Signs Regulations & whose view is obstructed by a tree.
The proscribed sign does not therefore discharge the authority's duties under regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, to illustrate this point I am providing 4 photographs detailing the approach to the road & the yellow sign: https://imgur.com/a/H0ibWUN.
The following case supports the argument of the proscribed sign: Conor Costelloe v London Borough of Merton Case No. 2240078999.
In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.
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???
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Dear John UK and Hippocrates. Thank you for your time and help in this matter.
Taking John's amendment, I've added a paragraph pertaining to the Conor Costelloe case. Have I worded it corrently and do you think it's ready to be sent as representation?
Best wishes,
Toby
Dear London Borough of Merton,
I challenge liability for PCN MT00119992 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.
The prescribed signs directly at the entrance to Southey Road are very hard to read from a car going west bound on Kingston Road as they face perpendicular to the road.
On revisiting the junction, I notice there is a yellow sign on the approach to the junction, but this sign is not an advance warning or prescribed sign authorised by Schedule 12 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and whose view is obstructed when driving by a tree.
The proscribed sign does not therefore discharge the authority's duties under regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, to illustrate this point I am providing four photographs detailing the approach to the road and the yellow sign, you can view these here https://imgur.com/a/H0ibWUN.
The following case supports the argument of the proscribed sign: Conor Costelloe v London Borough of Merton Case No. 2240078999.
In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
the registered keeper of this vehicle.
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He won and the council lost their review application.
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Dear John,
thank you for the modification suggestions! Yes, I'll definitely use them.
Dear Hippocrates,
I don't think I follow your post sorry. I read it as Conor Costelloe lost but the council should do an advance warning sign. And that this sign is not correct (using phrasing like "during term time") and so it may be refused by the Adjudicator.
Is your post saying that my representation will fail or has legs?
Kind regards,
Toby
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The following case supports the argument of the proscribed sign: Conor
Costelloe v London Borough of Merton Case No. 2240078999. But what in my
view is rather markedly non-compliant is the legend "School term time" in a
separate panel below the grey backed signage.
Review decision
Reasons for refusal
While I agree with a general proposition that an advisory or advance warning
sign does not have to be compliant, the issue in this case is not simply about a
non-compliant advance warning sign.
It is a reasonable inference that the advance warning sign was installed because
motorists intending to turn left may find it difficult to appreciate the restriction
before committing to the turn. The advance warning signage must therefore give
a clear warning to render the overall signage adequate.
The use of the phrase "during terms times" is not authorised for the simple
reason that it requires motorists to know what the term time are so it is just
about non-compliance, it is about a lack of clarity as to when the restriction
operates.
If an advance warning sign is needed and it is not clear, the Adjudicator is
entitled to conclude the overall signage is inadequate.
The application is refused.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-failing-to-comply-with-a-restriction-on-vehicles-entering-a-pedestrian-zone/msg38593/#msg38593
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Proscribed = forbidden.
IIRC TSRGD does not allow the use of'term time' as a permitted legend in signs (but allowed in Scotland).
the yellow (not orange) sign is therefore proscribed: the signs at beginning of Southey Road are permitted by TSRGD and therefore OK (though as you say, not visible until you are upon them & also 7 wordy signs in a very short stretch of road is imnformation overload - you may wish to include the latter point).
So may I respectfully suggest amending your draft as below.
The proscribed prescribed signs directly at the entrance to Southey Road are very hard to read from a car going west bound on Kingston Road as they face perpendicular to the road.
On revisiting the junction, I notice there is a yellow sign on the approach to the junction, but this sign is not an advance warning or proscribed prescribed sign authorised by Schedule 12 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and whose view is obstructed when driving by a tree.
The proscribed sign does not therefore discharge the authority's duties under regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, to illustrate this point I am providing four photographs detailing the approach to the road and the orange yellow sign, you can view these here https://imgur.com/a/H0ibWUN.
If you are using the click-counter technique you must have a fresh link, unique to your reps.
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Fine.
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Is this better?
Dear London Borough of Merton,
I challenge liability for PCN MT00119992 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.
The proscribed signs directly at the entrance to Southey Road are very hard to read from a car going west bound on Kingston Road as they face perpendicular to the road.
On revisiting the junction, I notice there is a yellow sign on the approach to the junction, but this sign is not an advance warning or proscribed sign authorised by Schedule 12 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and whose view is obstructed when driving by a tree.
The proscribed sign does not therefore discharge the authority's duties under regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, to illustrate this point I am providing four photographs detailing the approach to the road and the orange sign, you can view these here https://imgur.com/a/H0ibWUN.
In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
the registered keeper of this vehicle.
When I submit, I'll do a new imgur link so that I see the view count and whether they click on the link to look at the evidence.
May I write 'the registered keeper of this vehicle.' for for signature?
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I would add it is a proscribed sign.
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Good morning Hippocrates.
Here's my draft reply:
Dear London Borough of Merton,
I challenge liability for PCN MT00119992 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.
The signs directly at the entrance to Southey Road are very hard to read from a car going west bound on Kingston Road as they face perpendicular to the road.
On revisiting the junction, I notice there is a yellow sign on the approach to the junction, but this sign is not an advance warning sign authorised by Schedule 12 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and whose view is obstructed when driving by a tree.
The sign does not therefore discharge the authority's duties under regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, to illustrate this point I am providing four photographs detailing the approach to the road and the orange sign, you can view these here https://imgur.com/a/H0ibWUN.
In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur and the PCN must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully,
the registered keeper of this vehicle.
Is it worth mentioning that I turned round and came back out? I'm assuming not as by then I've entered the road already.
Toby
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Received your PM. The sign is proscribed since how does anyone know what the term times are? You can post your draft here and I will find a case in support.
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A go is one chance. Please get it right and post here first. PM sent.
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Thank you. I think I'll give it a go. I'll report back either way.
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Here are the images of the yellow sign on Kingston Road.
https://imgur.com/a/H0ibWUN
Sign is not a traffic sign, and also obscured by the branches of the tree. I would say you have a strong case to take the matter to London Tribunals on the basis of inadequate signage. However, you'll have to forego the discount if you do.
Under LATOR (Local Authorities Traffic Order Regulations), Regulation 18, councils must erect adequate signage to convey restrictions in a Traffic Regulation Order. Problem is "adequate", is subjective; one persons 'inadequate' is another's 'adequate'. Clearly the council have recognised the inadequacy of the signs, hence the yellow sign, which is essentially useless to motorists.
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Here are the images of the yellow sign on Kingston Road.
https://imgur.com/a/H0ibWUN
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Hello,
I've a similiar scenario to that of the post in this forum on 11/10/2023; Merton PCN - 53J - driving in pedestrian zone (school streets) - Monkleigh Road.
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I was caught on CCTV driving in a school zone on Southey Road. The signage is only on the entrance to the road and is not the easiest to read. I was given the go ahead by a lorry to take the right turn in front of them, which rushed me.
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I noticed this week on returning to the sight that there is a yellow sign attached to a post directed at drivers on Kingston Road, similar to that in the previous case.
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Not that I expect it matters, but I stopped, turned round and then headed back out the way I came.
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Video footage, camera stills and the PCN availble here:
https://imgur.com/a/ZPw5RI2
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Google Street view is 2 years old so less useful than the still from the CCTV.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/xZeS8vMjcgaPwFPX9
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I'll come back tomorrow and add a link to the yellow signage.
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Thank you very much for any help. I'm assuming it would be very similar to that from the other case?