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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: faqasim on December 03, 2024, 01:16:24 pm

Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on May 02, 2025, 11:35:18 am
The Golden Rule: scattergun approach. A good decision and an almost exact situation with the case referred.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-bus-lane-harrow-northolt-rd-jct-alexandra-ave/msg19438/#msg19438

Ms Solanki knows the rules, so no adjournment was necessary. She did not attend for this one either: 2230136090.
If only my petition were signed.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Grant Urismo on May 02, 2025, 11:17:44 am
Excellent!

This puts Harrow in an interesting position, especially as the adjudicator was given a list of potential winning arguments and picked this as the one to allow the appeal on.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on May 02, 2025, 10:29:50 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ho5-6EgEQVdwgE4Cq0-Z5FJWDOvBcWhf/view).
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on May 02, 2025, 10:20:13 am
;D Allowed.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on April 20, 2025, 02:30:51 pm
Do you need a downloadable version of that video?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on April 20, 2025, 11:29:14 am
Well the council relies on CCTV evidence, so I made a little video of my own to show that the council website is completely inaccurate and misleading:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZcXD8U9Gv4



@cp8759 Thanks for this.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on April 19, 2025, 01:29:44 pm
Looking forward to this.  ;)
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on April 05, 2025, 12:46:14 am
Thanks. Silence is golden from  now on. (Here)
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on April 04, 2025, 10:50:43 am
Funny coincidence, I just received the evidence pack, forwarding it to your email.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on April 04, 2025, 10:08:11 am
Hello Hippocrates

I still didn't receive any further communication from Harrow Council. Do you think I should contact anyone regarding this ?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on February 19, 2025, 08:48:17 pm
Hello Hippocrates

Tribunal date is set ! sent you the details.
I have replied. We will stick to the agreed plan.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on February 19, 2025, 11:57:24 am
Hello Hippocrates

Tribunal date is set ! sent you the details.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on February 13, 2025, 10:08:01 am
"Roger, over and out."
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on February 13, 2025, 08:52:42 am
Well that's a cracker of a NOR. Date served/date of letter. I say Tribunal time and I am happy to register the appeal and take care of this. They must attend and provide the correct evidence. I will drop you a PM with my details if you wish to take it all the way.

Also, please remind me of your formal reps. against the EN as I believe there is a failure to consider as well.

Hello Hippocrates,

Yes please. I am more than happy for you to register the appeal and manage it.
I will reply to your PM today.
Many thanks !
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on February 12, 2025, 05:22:24 pm
@faqasim I suggest you take Hippocrates up on his offer.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: John U.K. on February 11, 2025, 12:00:31 pm
@Hippocrates
Quote
Also, please remind me of your formal reps. against the EN as I believe there is a failure to consider as well.

As per yr Reply#30 above. (Informal challenge is in Reply#4 on page 1)
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Incandescent on February 11, 2025, 11:44:12 am
Quote
we may apply to the County Court to recover the money - plus court costs - from you
How to intimidate people.

County Court - Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC)
Court TEC costs - £10 fixed, not variable

So people immediately think, "must pay now, I don't want to get a CCJ"

Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on February 11, 2025, 11:31:24 am
Well that's a cracker of a NOR. Date served/date of letter. I say Tribunal time and I am happy to register the appeal and take care of this. They must attend and provide the correct evidence. I will drop you a PM with my details if you wish to take it all the way.

Also, please remind me of your formal reps. against the EN as I believe there is a failure to consider as well.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on February 11, 2025, 11:22:57 am
Hello Everyone,

I just received the rejection notice. Please find attached. What's next now ?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on January 29, 2025, 09:39:12 pm
Thank you for the guidance :)

I submitted the formal challenge. Now I should wait for the tribunal to reach out?
Just wait for the Notice of Rejection.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on January 29, 2025, 12:37:13 pm
As above, so below:

Just wait for the inevitable rejection and we take it from there.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: John U.K. on January 29, 2025, 10:00:32 am
If you submitted your reps to the Council, you are waiting for them to respond.

For a guide to the process see
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process
and
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appeals-process-explained

If Harrow provide the facility, you can always keep an eye on the PCN's status/history page and report any changes.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on January 29, 2025, 09:47:55 am
Thank you for the guidance :)

I submitted the formal challenge. Now I should wait for the tribunal to reach out? or is it the council who would reach out?

What are the next steps?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on January 20, 2025, 06:40:25 pm
At the tribunal stage you can add whatever you want, there are no restrictions as such. If you send a letter in the post they just scan it into the computer and shred the original, so you might as well post the representation directly into their computer system. In fact if you want to use the website point, you pretty much have to.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on January 20, 2025, 06:38:40 pm
so I don't need to mail the letter back? just fill the form as you mentioned?

And I shouldn't add more to my informal challenge? the cctv point? or any other points? Are we allowed to add more grounds during the tribunal beside the formal challenge content?

Best,
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on January 18, 2025, 12:11:20 pm
I would simply say this as I advised in the case won last year:



I require you to consider my informal challenge as my formal representations and I also make this collateral challenge regarding your website which contains grounds which do not belong to the statutory scheme, thereby causing confusion at least.


(https://i.imgur.com/o00r5Na.png)

Should you not agree to do so, I shall take the matter to the Tribunal and seek independent adjudication as provided by law.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on January 17, 2025, 11:08:29 pm
Well the council relies on CCTV evidence, so I made a little video of my own to show that the council website is completely inaccurate and misleading:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZcXD8U9Gv4

Obviously we don't want to show our hand early, @faqasim for now just make a representation as follows:

Dear London Borough of Harrow,

There  there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in section 4(2) of the London Local Authorities Act 1996.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online and take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on January 17, 2025, 01:31:52 pm
please find attached. Looking forward to hearing from you.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on January 17, 2025, 01:25:49 pm
Hello Hippocrates,

I received the enforcement notice, I sent it to you privately, please let me know if you received it.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on January 17, 2025, 01:24:47 pm
Hello cp8759, Thank you. I appreciate it. Actually I received it yesterday. I will upload it here now.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on January 07, 2025, 10:03:03 pm
@faqasim someone tried to hijack this thread, I have removed their posts from here. The council has six months from the date of issue of the PCN to serve an enforcement notice, so the last day is 20 May 2025.
Title: Re: SPLIT FROM HIJACKED THREAD Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on January 07, 2025, 09:42:49 am
Hello Hippocrates and cp8759,

I still didn't receive an enforcement notice, is that normal?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on December 06, 2024, 08:03:17 pm
I will arrange for my post to be checked, by a friend, however, I am just travelling for two weeks, so even if EN arrived, I would have 28 days to act on it, correct?
@faqasim well yes that's correct, but you said earlier that you'd be travelling for a couple of months, now it's a couple of weeks? If you're back after two weeks then you don't really need to put any arrangements in place.

Anyway as Hippocrates has offered to help I recommend you take up his offer of assistance, he's a veteran of London bus lane cases and will have no difficulty in sorting this out for you.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 06, 2024, 07:18:30 pm
That's ok. I appreciate that you have to trust a complete stranger! But, we are all in this fight together. You have my e mail address?

PM me a phone number as this form of communication is  not helpful. You ask pertinent questions but a call would sort it out faster.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 06, 2024, 07:15:00 pm
Please PM me the dates you are away. I also want to spend more time on this case as I did with the other one. They MUST attend any hearing or the game is over.

28 days from date of service. Two working days not including weekends. There may well be problems with it too in terms of wording.

If you really wish me to assist, I must have all the details.

Have you read  2240103393?


Thank you, I really appreciate your support.
I will send you all the details in PM.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 06, 2024, 07:13:46 pm
Will do.

So now, What should I say in my formal challenge ? any specific points I should mention?

Also, as I will be travelling, can you provide me with the response to the EN so I can prepare it?

Best,

This but obviously adding your details and check the website grounds and do your own screenshot:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-bus-lane-harrow-northolt-rd-jct-alexandra-ave/msg13248/#msg13248

But, how will you receive the EN?


Can you please elaborate what do you mean by "the website grounds" ?
I reviewed the tribunals report which I could find on the same issue, and I have two arguments, but I also have the anti-argument.

1. The signage is ambiguous, and is not clear where the bus lane starts, and it gives the impression it starts after the junction, especially with the small size of the bus lane, however, I have seen this argument refused on few tribunals. So I am not sure if it would be a good idea to include this.

2. The previous bus lane was Mon-Friday operated, while this small chunk is 24/7. I have read an accepted appeal based on this point, however, they installed further sign after that appeal. The new sign explains the time "at all times", but still very close to the junction, so I am not sure if this is considered good ground?

3. The CCTV type approval, I have seen few tribunals where this was a ground for successful appeal, however, I read in one of the tribunal's notes, that a certificate was provided to the tribunal, however it was dated after the contravention in question, so it wasn't accepted by the tribunal. However, the same certificate can be provided now? and can be accepted as grounds to refuse the appeal? Am I thinking correctly? If so, why later appeals were also successful using the same argument? Did the council fail to deliver the certificate which was already offered in previous tribunal ? or is it because they didn't show up? So it would be a gamble, if they show up and provided the certificate, this ground will not be successful? correct?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 06, 2024, 06:57:20 pm
Please PM me the dates you are away. I also want to spend more time on this case as I did with the other one. They MUST attend any hearing or the game is over.

28 days from date of service. Two working days not including weekends. There may well be problems with it too in terms of wording.

If you really wish me to assist, I must have all the details.

Have you read  2240103393?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 06, 2024, 06:45:08 pm
Hello CP8759,

Thanks for the insight, I will arrange for my post to be checked, by a friend, however, I am just travelling for two weeks, so even if EN arrived, I would have 28 days to act on it, correct?


Additionally, please find the PCN attached on here. it just says on hold.

[attachimg=1]




[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: cp8759 on December 06, 2024, 06:37:54 pm
@faqasim the CCTV camera is a ZenGrab LaneWatch Mk2, I've forwarded you the FOI response but it isn't particularly useful at this stage.

As @Hippocrates says the key issue here is whether they can prove that it is approved.

What arrangements are you making for your post? As the registered keeper of a vehicle you have certain responsibilities and if you're going to be away for months, you need to put arrangements in place or you run a massive risk.

For instance if someone clones your number plate and gets a couple of speeding tickets, by the time you get home you could be facing 12 points and a totting ban for failing to respond even though you've done absolutely nothing wrong.

So, can you get a friend, family member or neighbour to keep an eye on your post?

Most council website will also give you the PCN status so you could just check the council website periodically, but as you have very unhelpfully redacted all the PCN details (contrary to the Read Me First guidance at https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/ ) we can't check.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 06, 2024, 05:45:22 pm
Will do.

So now, What should I say in my formal challenge ? any specific points I should mention?

Also, as I will be travelling, can you provide me with the response to the EN so I can prepare it?

Best,

This but obviously adding your details and check the website grounds and do your own screenshot:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-bus-lane-harrow-northolt-rd-jct-alexandra-ave/msg13248/#msg13248

But, how will you receive the EN?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 06, 2024, 12:59:27 pm
Will do.

So now, What should I say in my formal challenge ? any specific points I should mention?

Also, as I will be travelling, can you provide me with the response to the EN so I can prepare it?

Best,
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 04, 2024, 11:56:57 am
What's the other way if you don't mind me asking?
E mail them and ask them to send it by pdf if you will be away. They must serve a hard copy too.

parking.enforcement@harrow.gov.uk
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 04, 2024, 11:32:33 am
What's the other way if you don't mind me asking?

Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 04, 2024, 11:30:55 am
IF they send an Enforcement Notice on the 17th December, I reckon you would HAVE to respond by 15th January at the latest.

If you are away, then ask a friendly neighbour. If not possible, there is another way.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 04, 2024, 11:01:01 am
I understand, so it would depend if they provide evidence+witness to support their claim.

how about the enforcement issue ? if I am travelling? What should I do? and do they tolerate late reply ?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 04, 2024, 10:59:10 am
The one with the camera type, correct? Is there a way to check if the council got the approval for the camera type yet? As they might have fixed that by now?
All councils have now fixed this issue - mostly. Harrow does but whether their evidence will stand up is another matter! See the case won.  Schedule I para. 7(6) and 7(2) is what Mr Teper is referring to. They didn't turn up and the exact camera was not named in the WS.

Certainly: wait for the EN and take it all the way is my advice.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 04, 2024, 10:57:09 am
The one with the camera type, correct? Is there a way to check if the council got the approval for the camera type yet? As they might have fixed that by now?

Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 04, 2024, 10:54:55 am
You will have 28 days from the date of service of the EN to make a formal representation which must be done or they will serve a Charge Certificate. So, you had better organise something and sort your dates/commitments put please.

2240103393:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-bus-lane-harrow-northolt-rd-jct-alexandra-ave/msg19438/#msg19438
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 04, 2024, 10:48:34 am
Hello Hippocrates,

Thank you, I appreciate the help. So you do advise to wait and not pay, correct?

Also, regarding the enforcement, I will be travelling in the next couple of months, what happens if I don't reply promptly as I am travelling?

---

Can you share with me the tribunal case number you worked on ?
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 04, 2024, 10:41:13 am
I won a case some months ago re this. Just wait for the Enforcement Notice and I will advise further what play to write.  ;D
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 03, 2024, 10:27:21 pm
and the council response to my informal challenge.

(sorry I had to post them in 3 different replies, as it didn't post in one reply).



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 03, 2024, 10:26:30 pm
and my informal challenge:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 03, 2024, 10:26:08 pm
Please find the PCN.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: Hippocrates on December 03, 2024, 09:53:58 pm
Hello Everyone,

I came across this website as I was doing my research on the PCN I received by Harrow Borough.

This location seems to be problematic, and there are few posts and articles online about it.

I have submitted an informal challenge, and it was rejected, and now I have the choice to either pay half of the fine, or challenge it formally and lose the 50% discount.

I have tried to find the cases which drivers won against the council, for the same spot, but I wasn't lucky, can anyone help me locate these? Or tell me where to look?

Additionally, I found another case which was won due to the type of camera, as it wasn't in the approved list of the Secretary of State. How can I check the type of the camera? and how can I match it against that list? is it available to the public?

I would really appreciate your insight/input as I have to make a decision shortly.

Many thanks.

Well: PCN details  etc would be useful and then speak to me.
Title: Re: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: stamfordman on December 03, 2024, 01:30:40 pm
London Tribunals register is the place to look for appeals but you need to enter the location field carefully usually as per the PCN.

I'm not up to speed on bus lane camera status or other London bus lane issues - others will be.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
Title: PCN Bus Lane - Harrow - Northolt RD JCT Alexandra Ave
Post by: faqasim on December 03, 2024, 01:16:24 pm
Hello Everyone,

I came across this website as I was doing my research on the PCN I received by Harrow Borough.

This location seems to be problematic, and there are few posts and articles online about it.

I have submitted an informal challenge, and it was rejected, and now I have the choice to either pay half of the fine, or challenge it formally and lose the 50% discount.

I have tried to find the cases which drivers won against the council, for the same spot, but I wasn't lucky, can anyone help me locate these? Or tell me where to look?

Additionally, I found another case which was won due to the type of camera, as it wasn't in the approved list of the Secretary of State. How can I check the type of the camera? and how can I match it against that list? is it available to the public?

I would really appreciate your insight/input as I have to make a decision shortly.

Many thanks.