Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: IanO on November 30, 2024, 09:33:22 pm
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No worries as next stage is NTO and they are bound to reoffer discount if you say the payment system is faulty - there's no way they shouldn't be accepting a Visa or Mastercard debit card.
There's a pay by phone option - did you try that?
Try emailing them.
Take screenshots.
But are you the registered keeper.
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Hello, so I tried to pay this fine today, however I got a message on the Council website that the payment didn't go through. I tried two more times with the same card, same message.
I checked my bank statement, and it shows the charge went through 3 times (can't tell if they are in 'pending' or not). It's a debit card, yes it works fine with other merchants and I have the funds available.
The Council will accept cheques as an alternative but my bank is an online only bank which doesn't issue cheque books. I'd be willing to pay in cash or with my American Express card but the Council doesn't accept either.
So I am at somewhat of a Mexican standoff. What happens if I get an NTO? I've tried in good faith to pay, and no the Council shouldn't expect me to try another debit card from a family member (what if I didn't have any surviving family?).
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They are rather fettering discretion by saying 'unable' to cancel as they always have the choice to do so.
What was your challenge?
They want your money and the problem is that the gap in getting the charge going is too long for the tribunal to say you were allowed reasonable time to fix something. Here there was nothing wrong with their systems.
You could have another go at formal stage by focusing on it being an honest error deserving of discretion under government fairness guidance.
Same narrative that I shared here, that I couldn't pay on the spot, I had to go find my wife to fetch the Electroverse card inside the University campus so I could start the charge, came back and the ticket was there. She couldn't leave our child unsupervised which is why I had to go to her. I did provide proof of the charge I did subsequently.
Yes the gap was around 15-18 minutes, so around 8 minutes each way, but that's just how long it took from the car to go inside the campus, wait for the lift to the 3rd floor, find the card and walk back.
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OP, who is the registered keeper?
Hello, that would be me
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OP, who is the registered keeper?
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They are rather fettering discretion by saying 'unable' to cancel as they always have the choice to do so.
What was your challenge?
They want your money and the problem is that the gap in getting the charge going is too long for the tribunal to say you were allowed reasonable time to fix something. Here there was nothing wrong with their systems.
You could have another go at formal stage by focusing on it being an honest error deserving of discretion under government fairness guidance.
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I had a rejection today from the Council, link below. I don't fancy my chances at adjudication so may just pay this.
Is the 10 minute observation by the CEO at their discretion or enshrined in the TMA 2004? I just find it curious that they quoted an exact period of observation down to the second, less than 10 minutes in fact. Are CEOs really standing there with a timer? ;D
page 1: (https://i.ibb.co/f1J068h/Page-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vj6BnH7)
page 2 and 3: (https://i.ibb.co/GpV5Ypg/page-2-and-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V9vqn9X)
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challenge grounds are here, I took a screengrab: https://ibb.co/gPwxq8Y
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Cannot access grounds unless you go to add further info.
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PM received. But, I need the VRM and PCN details to check their website. How dare they treat musicians like this?! ::) I will turn the volume up next time I play in the Market Square - when it is free from all the naff stuff on sale there at present.
thanks:
VRM: AJ21 NSZ
PCN: QT10074816
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PM received. But, I need the VRM and PCN details to check their website. How dare they treat musicians like this?! ::) I will turn the volume up next time I play in the Market Square - when it is free from all the naff stuff on sale there at present.
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or get the wife to park the car.
Kerbed alloys cost more than a PCN ;)
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or get the wife to park the car.
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The bay is correctly signed.
All you have is a plea for discretion - realised wife had card, ran after her, got back and put car on charge as per attached... Would you kindly cancel on this occasion and will be more carful in using your charging bays in future.
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I charged for 4 hours, just got there 3 minutes late hence why I feel a £55 fine is a bit of an over-reach
Why are you continuing with this line here?
You did not start charging until after the PCN was issued. I suggest you make a challenge but remember your points - I won't call them arguments in case you argue, which would be the wrong tone- go to mitigation.
If you don't like London parking penalties..then tango sierra I'm afraid.
Are you the registered keeper with current DVLA details?
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hi @stamfordman @H C Andersen the PCN photos are below.
I charged for 4 hours, just got there 3 minutes late hence why I feel a £55 fine is a bit of an over-reach
(https://i.ibb.co/CHw679k/photo5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bK6FBvS)
(https://i.ibb.co/GPdZwDB/photo4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DK1BXFs)
(https://i.ibb.co/JCrCBjq/photo3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CWVW1K6)
(https://i.ibb.co/wKXNhjz/photo2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rZSG2Nw)
(https://i.ibb.co/f2z8FLL/photo1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JKwxtgg)
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Where are the council's pics? You've blanked the PCN details.
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Then this is what you put to the authority.
No point blaming the CEO who simply saw you car in an EV bay not charging and, not being clairvoyant, had no idea why and in truth didn't need to worry: your challenge to the authority is your turn to put your side of the story. But on the basis of what we know your argument goes to mitigation only.
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Hello,
Yes the CEO took photos with time stamps of 14:14 and 14:15. No photos
from the start of the observation which the PCN alleges was at 14:04.
I started my charge at 14:18 as shown in the earlier invoice so just missed him.
I parked and I did not plug the car in to ‘pretend’ I was charging (that would surely deserve a fine!), as I was in a rush to go in and get the card.
I normally charge at home, I haven’t used a public charger in almost a year so I was logged out of the app and didn’t want to waste time with password resets (not least because phone 4G reception with O2 in that part of Kingston is horrendous).
And yes I am the registered keeper of the vehicle.
£55 just seems harsh given I did charge for the rest of the afternoon, I had just left the car momentarily to retrieve the physical card from my wife who couldn’t come to meet me
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OP, before you submit anything I suggest you get your account crystal clear, in particular ParkingDelphinium's questions and comments.
So, you parked..and then what? Did or did not connect a cable to your car and then realise that you didn't have this card- not that it seems essential given the comment in the previous post? Your comment 'so I popped out of the car to go in and find her' suggests you did not connect.
In which case and whatever your intentions, you were in contravention for at least 10 minutes. On this point, how did you know you were away from the car for 'about 10 minutes' or have you just lifted this from the CEO's obs times?
And CEO's don't camouflage themselves waiting for an unsuspecting motorist to arrive so that they can 'pounce'. It takes two to get a PCN: the contravening motorist and a CEO.
Bottom line, instead of vacating the EV bay you decided to stay wile not charging so I suggest (under the heading of not being confrontational) you don't seek to minimise what you did(particularly as we haven't seen photos or the CEO's notes). What evidence do you have that you did charge there?
Are you the registered keeper with up to date DVLA details? I ask because if they reject your reps the next(formal) notice (Notice to Owner) would go to the registered keeper.
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Did the CEO take any photos?
Did you connect the car and charger before you realised?
On the electroverse app you can start charging without needing the card.
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Well, no harm will be done by submitting an informal challenge based on your narrative here. They may give way but don't hold huge hopes. Don't be confrontational.
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Hello,
This is a case of ridiculously bad timing and luck for me. I was in Kingston today to pick up my wife and my son from his music school for some shopping and also intended to charge my EV. When I parked in the designated EV charging bay, I realised my wife had my Electroverse EV charging card, so I popped out of the car to go in and find her. When I came back about 10 minutes later I already had a PCN as I started to charge my car! I am wondering now if I had been watched by the Warden before he decided to pounce.
I attach:
Copy of PCN page 1: https://ibb.co/mBVRKBB
Copy of PCN page 2: https://ibb.co/w65t7Cc
Proof of EV charging (invoice), I charged the car while were out and about: https://ibb.co/0VDtsLY
Google street view location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/DpPfBuKFzjrnrvkZA
“Challenge grounds” that the Council provides: https://ibb.co/gPwxq8Y
I would like your view if I have grounds for appeal given that I was only momentarily gone to pick up my charging card? Yes I could have phoned her to come to me with the charging card, but my son is only 4 and they want at least one parent on site to supervise.
Also, some of the ‘challenge grounds’ seem a bit loose and were picked up on by @Hippocrates in two other posts from September here https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/new-malden-code-73-parked-without-payment-of-the-parking-charge-malden-centre-ca/ (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/new-malden-code-73-parked-without-payment-of-the-parking-charge-malden-centre-ca/) and here https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/kingston-code-232-parked-in-a-loading-bay-canbury-park-road/msg38370/#msg38370 (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/kingston-code-232-parked-in-a-loading-bay-canbury-park-road/msg38370/#msg38370) .
“The order was invalid” – this won’t mean anything to a lay person, what order? “The penalty charge exceeded the amount”, what amount are they talking about? How am I supposed to know what this means without spending plenty of time researching?