Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: SAZZA on November 30, 2024, 12:56:59 pm
-
Yes, I did which he did note. But it seemed the non-perpendicular sign and the fact it was obscured by the truck swung it for us.
-
Well done :)
Did you use HCA's skeleton argument in post Reply#25?
Please post the case number.
-
Thank you so much for your help. We succeeded in our appeal and I thought it would be useful to let you know the reasons given by the Adjudicator.
1. The newer restriction came into force on 1 December 2023. However, the sign plate did not reflect the most recent restriction until after July 2024.
2. The newer sign plate was FACING THE ROAD (apparently these signs should be perpendicular to the road so that the driver can see them as they approach - only the yellow ones should be facing the road). I thought this point would be particularly useful for others to know.
3. Because of Point 2, our view of the sign was obscured by a large high sided Authority refuse truck which was also in the loading bay and we could, therefore, not see the sign.
-
Thank you again. I will submit in advance. It's been a very very long time since I attended one of these hearings and the process has clearly changed. I really appreciate all your help.
-
A hearing is fairly relaxed although strictly a judicial proceeding. You may elect for a telephone or personal hearing. It is unlikely that the authority would be present and would rely solely on their written submissions - the evidence bundle you've got.
You don't make speeches, you present your case in writing in advance and the adjudicator may ask questions by way of verification/clarification.
-
Thank you again. I definitely feel I can say I’ve loaded/unloaded there between those dates. I’m not sure I trust myself to be able stay all that correctly in front of the solicitor. Do you know if I’m able to swap to a written appeal?
-
But you didn't use the bay between July and October?
OP, this is the essence of your appeal given that TfL officers acknowledge ignoring the authority's order and not implementing its provisions when it came into effect.
I can't tell you what to say, but if the facts fit....
I have used the bay since at least ***. I normally/only park here in order to donate items to **** which is an adjacent charity shop.
As can be seen in the attached GSV snapshots, in 2020,2021,2022 and July 2024(although TfL claim to have amended the sign in July 2024) the restriction was: No Stopping except 10am-4pm Loading, max. 20 minutes. I had therefore become familiar with what I was permitted to do and not do.
As the adjudicator will see from TfL's evidence, in December 2023 Transport for London amended the restriction such that 'No Stopping except loading 10am-4pm' became 'except 7pm-7am'. I can only imagine that these changes, which created unsocial hours exemptions, hardly pleased the adjacent shops.
I cannot recall how often I had used the bay prior to 2024, but I can remember using it at least *** between December 2023 and July/Aug 2024 without issue. Therefore, when I used it on 28 October I assumed that the restriction was the same.
But it wasn't. And, as can be seen, not by a marginal amount but fundamentally.
While I accept that in principle a driver should always check signs, I would ask the adjudicator to consider the event dates in this case. Specifically, Transport for London amended the restrictions which came into force on 1 December 2023 and yet for reasons which have not been detailed, officers did not implement these changes until July/August 2024. Therefore, I (and every other motorist) had been parking in technical contravention between 1 Dec. 2023 and July/Aug 2024. Had TfL implemented the changed restrictions when they were obliged to do, then the contravention on 28 October would not have occurred. And if these changes had been brought into effect when legally obliged and implemented with some changeover leeway(given that the previous restriction was in effect for so long) then it is likely that would not be facing a penalty from October 2024.
I respectfully submit that TfL officers who disregarded their duty to implement the amended order when it came into force should not be allowed to pursue me for this penalty when they decided to do so without, in my case, any prior warning.
Some thoughts!
But more info from you pl.
-
Yes, I would have done although don't think I could give any specific dates.
-
Thanks.
You posted:
I parked briefly in a loading/unloading bay on Tfl Red Route I have used several times to unload items to charity shop next to it. (my emphasis)
TfL agree that despite the order coming into effect on 1 Dec. it was not implemented in respect of this location until 'July 2024' when presumably the signs were changed.
Can you give us any idea of your 'several times' e.g. did you use the bay between Dec. 2023 and July 2024 etc?
-
Thank you so much for your patience with me! The Case Summary is 37 pages long! I've attached the first five pages which are the most relevant (the rest is about TSRGD definition of Red Routes and their argument there has been an Error of Law in the Determination of the Panel's decision regarding Regulation 11 and why). If you want the whole lot, I can carry on scanning.
I attach the Traffic Order front page and the relevant page with the parking bay asterisked.
I also attach two photographs they've sent me from the video footage. There was a rubbish truck blocking the sign which I have not yet referred to in my appeal but they mention in the Case Summary that I should have got out the car to read the signs.
I have also now had a response from the Traffic Order section saying the signs came in to force in July 2024 (same as Google Street View date) and that it was published in the London Gazette in September 2023.
Feeling pessimistic.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
We're specifically interested in the traffic order, so as a minimum pl post this as well as their Case Summary.
-
Thanks for your help with this. I've now received a large package from TfL in advance of the hearing and it looks like they've covered pretty much everything so I'm losing hope of fighting this. The only thing I still don't have is the date it actually came into force (given I have Google Street View saying it was still the old signs in July 2024). I have actually stopped and warned many drivers of cars and vans, every time I walk past the bay, as no one seems to be aware the signs have changed. They must be making a fortune!
(I'm afraid the tech involved in uploading the video was a little beyond me and my patience. Sorry).
-
See the READ THIS FIRST post on front page.
As regards the Gazette, possibly one of these? https://www.thegazette.co.uk/all-notices/London/notice?results-page-size=10&categorycode-all=all&numberOfLocationSearches=1&start-publish-date=2023-10-01&location-distance-1=1&text=Road+Traffic+Acts+Transport+for+London&end-publish-date=2023-12-31
-
Hi
I appealed under The Offence did not occur (see previous post). The hearing is in 2 weeks.
Tried uploading the video but it was too big to go through (12MB). I tried to 'compress' but that didn't work. Sorry, I'm not that technical I know how to solve it.
-
There is no point in withholding your VRM because this is on view 24/7 when the car's on the road.
You say you've registered an appeal...under which grounds, did you elect for a hearing or determination on the papers and when's the date?
-
Thank you HC Andersen
I registered the appeal under the 'offence didn't occur' because I hadn't realised the signs/times had changed when I lodged it. I'm a novice at this!
I couldn't find the TMO on the Council's website nor The London Gazette and Google Maps shows the old signs were still up in July 2024.
-
The restriction came into effect on 1 Dec. 2023.
IMO, TfL had no power to continue with the 'old' restriction past this point. I would be particularly interested to see whether they present the full order or only extracts, excluding the commencement date.
There is no point in withholding your VRM because this is on view 24/7 when the car's on the road.
You say you've registered an appeal...under which grounds, did you elect for a hearing or determination on the papers and when's the date?
-
Hello again.
I have now received the TMO notice from TfL (after 3rd time of emailing!) which I attach. Despite saying enforcement was to be December 2023, the signs had not changed by July 2024 at least. I have asked when the signs were changed but have yet to receive a reply.
I also have the video from Tfl. I don't know how to upload it without showing the registration number which I'd rather not do.It shows me parking in the loading area behind a rubbish truck (which was blocking the sign) and my husband getting out of the car with the bag for the charity shop. My break lights are on throughout as I waited in the car.
Is any of that any help for my appeal? I have a date for the appeal in a couple of weeks.
Most grateful for any advice.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Thank you so much to both of you. I will follow up on your advice tomorrow (not sure I’ve totally understood but will try) and report back how I get on, if that’s ok.
Basically, if the TRO for the location doesn't have the times shown in the sign, but the old ones, then the PCN is void.
-
Thank you so much to both of you. I will follow up on your advice tomorrow (not sure I’ve totally understood but will try) and report back how I get on, if that’s ok.
-
Can't find it in the London Gazette.
OP, I suggest to write to TfL and ask them.
This might help: trafficordersection@tfl.gov.uk
-
To change the times, there should be a Traffic Regulation Order that amends the times. The sign must reflect the TRO that establishes the restriction.
-
I'm so sorry if I haven't done this right and asked a question but I now attach the NOR. I only received this yesterday, Saturday, when TFL aren't open but I will request the video tomorrow. I just thought it would help my appeal to the Adjudicator if I could find out when they'd changed the sign.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
OP, let's be clear:
You received a PCN addressed to you;
You made representations;
These have been rejected and you have a Notice of Rejection.
If yes, then post this document - NOR, Notice of Rejection of Representations. Your only options are to pay or appeal and there are time limits applicable to both.
And to repeat: get the video.
Your problem is that this does NOT stop the clock as regards registering an appeal, so pl get on with it ASP and post the NOR(all sides and all corners). And pl stop posing questions until these actions have been taken because time is not on your side.
-
Thanks I will do. Is there any way of finding out when they changed the sign? It must have been pretty recently as I have used this bay before to unload and load.
-
DRL - Double Red Line
Call TFL on Monday on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will put the PCN on hold and send you a DVD in the post.
TFL Ref - https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/penalty-charge-notices
-
Thanks for your reply. I don't have the video of it (have to apply in writing to be sent copy) but Tfl have accepted in their response that I was unloading and stayed for precisely 2 minutes but that I was "stationary outside of permitted times". Is that any help? Sorry, not sure what DRL means?
-
Where's the video pl?
This is quite a significant change.
Previously the RR prohibition was 7am to 7pm, which was out of context with the preceding DRL and following DRL. The loading exemption sat within this. Given that the RR prohibition ended at 7pm, then in effect anyone could stop there for any reason 7pm-7am.
Now, they have changed the red route prohibition to 24/7, changed the anything goes period so that this is now loading only and removed any anything goes period.
It's possible, but putting up the wrong sign is not unknown - there was another thread here on this very issue quite recently.
-
`hello again. Would be much appreciated if anyone could offer any advice on this? Hope the PCN and images help.
-
Sorry. Here's the PCN and screenshots of the sign in July and the new one.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Post the PCN. We are clueless otherwise.
-
I parked briefly in a loading/unloading bay on Tfl Red Route I have used several times to unload items to charity shop next to it. The sign USED TO SAY Loading Permitted between 10am and 4pm (No stopping between 7am and 7pm). Google Street View shows this was the sign in July 2024. I received a parking ticket because I now realise the sign has recently changed to No Loading "except 7pm - 7am". HOW DO I FIND OUT WHEN THE SIGN CHANGED? I've tried to look on the internet. Many thanks.