Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: ikina on November 29, 2024, 03:13:25 pm
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Ok thank you @DWMB2 @b789 @mickR
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You can confirm to SABA that you are the RK. Just send them a copy of the front of the V5C and then tell them to answer your questions.
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Yes - without your name and VRM they won't know who you are.
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Can I please check:
If SABA wants my full name and vehicle registration to verify that I am the registered keeper, do I supply this?
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chase them up about getting the ticket cancelled
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Hi @mickR I asked PALS about both. They ONLY responded to part on FOI
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did you send a FOI request to PALs instead of asking them to get the ticket cancelled?
I like the cheek of SABA in bringing up the Data Protection angle when it is them that accessed the RKs data.
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But sending an FoI request was not the way to go. However, having sent it, please do provide your details to them so that we can get a definitive answer to the question.
When communication with anyone as the Keeper, all you have to do is refer to the the Driver in the third person. No "I did this or that". Simply say "The driver did this or that".
As far as SABA are concerned, you can confirm to them that you are the Registered Keeper to whom the NtK was addressed. Remind them that you are under no legal obligation to identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company and decline to do so.
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Hi @mickR @b789 @H C Andersen
I've received this response from SABA. It sounds like they are ignoring my response and still insisting on the original request.
"Good afternoon,
Thank you for your email, all comments have been noted accordingly.
To satisfy data protection and to ensure we are discussing with the correct party, please confirm your full name and vehicle registration.
If you are not the named party or the driver on the day, we will require authorisation to discuss this matter with you."
PALS looks to be a dead end and doesn't want to get involved with their rogue supplier. Is progressing with SABA the only available route?
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Hi @b789 @DWMB2 I based the FOI off this recommendation "Maybe ask them how their agent makes their income from these PCNs or does it go back to the Trust (unlikely)."
I wasn't aware I needed to supply personal details for this. I thought the entire point was to remain as "registered keeper"?
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As above, but also, why didn't you give your details if making an FOI request?
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Why did you submit a Freedom of Information request?
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Hi @b789 - I have just received this response from PALS
"Thank you for your FOI request. Your reference number is: FOI xxxx, and should be quoted in all your future correspondence relating to this request.
I regret that your request for information under the Freedom of Information Act(FOIA) has been declined as an invalid request under section 8 of the Act.
Section 8 of the FOIA requires the inclusion of the requestors name for the request to be valid.
Please can you provide us with your full name.
It is anticipated that a response will be communicated to you within 20 working days in compliance with the Freedom of Information Act 2000.
Kind regards
FOI Team
Croydon Health Services NHS Trust
Email: CH-TR.FOI@nhs.net "
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Thank you @b789 Ive sent this. Will update on here when I hear back.
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This is the PALS service you should be contacting:
https://www.croydonhealthservices.nhs.uk/patient-experience-and-pals
I certainly wouldn't bother with CAB. They are clueless when it comes to private parking tickets.
You may want to point this document out to them:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles
Especially this bit:
NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private contractors who run car parks on their behalf.
NHS organisations should act against rogue contractors in line with the relevant codes of practice where applicable.
Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, for example ‘income from parking charge notices only’.
Maybe ask them how their agent makes their income from these PCNs or does it go back to the Trust (unlikely).
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@b789 I contacted PALS and received this as a response:
"Thank you for your email and I am sorry to read of these difficulties.
I am sorry we cannot help directly with this as we are a PALS team a mental health trust. I've copied in the PALS team for Croydon Health Services although they may not be able to help either.
These resources may be useful for you:
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/parking-tickets/appealing-a-parking-ticket/
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/parking-tickets/appealing-a-parking-ticket-when-someone-else-was-driving/"
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Thank you all for your help with this. I am truly grateful for your time.
I have read all the responses and redrafted the response to this:
"Dear SABA,
Thank you for your email.
The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:
As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and appeal.
Non-Compliance with PoFA:
Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to pay as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
The NtK also fails to specify a “period of parking”, instead referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph 9(2)(a).
Evidence of Payment Already Provided:
I have submitted irrefutable evidence that a valid ticket was purchased using your suggested machine. It is unclear why your systems, or your warden’s observations, failed to reflect this.
I urge SABA to consider this appeal as submitted and to issue a POPLA code if they choose to reject it."
I hope I am understanding this all correctly. Please feel free to correct me if I have misunderstood any of it.
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yep apologies I missed that
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@mickR..
The suggested draft:
'The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:
As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and appeal. '
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I'm not disputing @H C Andersen's point. I'm simply suggesting having a bit if fun at SABA's ridiculous attempt to tell the Keeper that only the driver can appeal. We all know that SABA will never accept the appeal anyway.
When it comes to PoFA, there will be the usual uphill battle to get some moronic POPLA assessor to understand the finer points of PoFA. A bridge to cross when we reach it.
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With respect, PoFA does not require the creditor to offer nor grant a keeper the right to appeal against the parking charge. Para. 9 is quite clear.
I'm not sure anyone said they did.
@b789 said...
Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to pay as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
not "appeal"
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With respect, PoFA does not require the creditor to offer nor grant a keeper the right to appeal against the parking charge. Para. 9 is quite clear.
But what PoFA does state is that a NTK must:
...
g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
There is no mandatory appeal under PoFA(something which long-overdue mandatory regs would resolve).
However, it is understood by government, approved operators and their ATAs that the latter would put in place a (now single) code of practice, compliance with which is a condition of operators accessing DVLA keeper data. It is this Code which requires creditors to offer 'arrangements for resolving disputes' and states that the keeper may appeal to the creditor, page 38 refers: https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPractice.pdf
POPLA must consider this matter and IMO find for the keeper because of the failure of the creditor to comply with this most important part of the code.
So, how should you play this?
At present SABA hold the cards and would continue to do so until you are in possession of a POPLA code*. Therefore, I would simply respond by saying that you do not intend to name the driver, that you require SABA to consider your appeal as submitted and if rejected to issue a POPLA code.
*- in the little snippet of their response I don't see that your failure to comply within their tome frame would lead to them issuing a POPLA code, but if it does then post their complete reply because perhaps your best tactic would be simply to ignore.
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Their PCN doesn't appear to be POFA compliant (no invitation to pay or name the driver).
Not quite. They do state in their Notice to Keeper (NtK): "If you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them." However they have not complied with PoFA paragraphs 9(2)(a) and 9(2)(e)(i).
SABA will certainly not concede this point but POPLA may, as long as you can persuasively show them why. PoFA 9(2)(a) states:
The notice must—
(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
The NtK fails to specify a “period of parking,” instead referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph 9(2)(a).
Also, PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) states:
The notice must—
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges;
Conveniently, the POPLA assessors usually ignore the last three words of para 9(2)(e). After all, they have to pander to their paymasters. However, if it were to ever get as far as a hearing in the county court, it would firm part of a valid defence that the Keeper cannot be liable for the charge.
For now, I suggest responding to SABA with the following derisory email:
Dear SABA,
Thank you for your email, which demonstrates either a remarkable misunderstanding of the law or a deliberate attempt at deceit. Your claim that “only the driver can appeal” is both mendacious and blatantly false.
If you genuinely believe I will fall for such a false statement, I strongly suggest that someone in your organisation with at least a vague understanding of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) reviews this matter immediately. I advise you to involve a responsible adult to ensure that SABA's next steps don’t lead you further into the realm of legal absurdity.
Allow me to clarify, for your benefit:
The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:
As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and appeal. Your baseless demand that only the driver can appeal is a transparent attempt to intimidate me into naming the driver, which I am under no legal obligation to do as you are simply an unregulated private parking company.
Non-Compliance with PoFA:
Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to pay as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
The NtK also fails to specify a “period of parking”, instead referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph 9(2)(a).
Evidence of Payment Already Provided:
I have submitted irrefutable evidence that a valid ticket was purchased using your suggested machine. The fact that your systems, or your warden’s observations, failed to reflect this is not my concern.
Should you reject this appeal and issue a POPLA code, please be aware that this will only serve to prove your intellectual malnourishment as it will be your first step toward wasting money on an independent assessor. Furthermore, should this matter ever reach a county court hearing, you will have the unenviable task of justifying your legally and factually deficient claims to a judge. At that stage, I trust the court will not look kindly upon your mendacious behaviour, nor will it consider your actions “reasonable” under any measure.
I suggest you reconsider your approach, as pursuing this matter further risks not only your finances but also exposing your practices to judicial scrutiny. As for your demand for the driver’s details, I refer you to the succinct and entirely appropriate response given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram (1971).
Yours faithfully,
[Your Name]
Registered Keeper
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Sorry, I was not clear, I meant a couple of recent threads where the parking co was fishing for the driver's name after initial appeal. Their PCN doesn't appear to be POFA compliant (no invitation to pay or name the driver).
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Send me a direct message with what you want it changing to and I'll edit it.
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It doesnt allow me to change my initial post @mickR
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Your attachment hasn't worked. Have you read the "READ THIS FIRST" thread b789 suggested, and followed the instructions in there?
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your first post!
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(https://i.imgur.com/bJmufxD.jpeg)
@RichardW - they are not mine, I searched before posting and never saw anywhere the drivers had already paid for a ticket.
@b789 Ive not tried PALS - didn't know you could do that. It was posted to me. Nothing was left on my windscreen on the day. The notice is now attached.
@mickR - sorry which post, Im not following?
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and edit the first post to remove any ref to who was driving
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What have PALS said about this when you approached them to get it cancelled? You have tried PALS have't you?
Was this a windscreen Notice to Driver (NtD) or a postal Notice to Keeper (NtK)?
SABA are being outright mendacious when they say they can only accept an appeal from the driver on the day.
Please have a read of the thread and show us the PCN:
READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
In the meantime, get in touch with the hospital PALS and ask them to get it cancelled.
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There are at least 2 recent threads about this. You can ignore, or write back and point out there's no obligation to name driver and you won't be doing so. They will almost certainly refuse any appeal either way. Have you contacted the hospital to get them to have it cancelled?
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My vehicle was parked at Croydon University Hospital using their SABA parking bays. The SABA parking app was down. The ticket machines were also broken apart from the one further away which they recommended using. A ticket was purchased using their suggested machine.
For some reason, this ticket wasn't seen clearly by the warden and a PCN was posted to me a few days later.
I appealed this SABA PCN and explained the app was down(again!), and I sent photos of the ticket and broken ticket machine on 21/11/2024. I sent it as a registered keeper and declined to say if I was driving. The appeal forces you to say if you were the driver or not - so I said no.
I have received this response from them pressuring/bullying me into supplying the driver's name.
"Thank you for your online appeal submission.
Please be advised, we can only process an appeal from the driver on the day.
Please provide the drivers full name and serviceable address within seven (7) days of the date of this email. Alternatively, please have the driver appeal to appeals@paymyparkingcharge.com. Within this email they will need to confirm their full name, serviceable address and confirmation that they were the driver on the day."
Help and advice on how to push back on this would be greatly appreciated, please.
Thank you for your help. Its greatly appreciated.