Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Merlin5 on November 28, 2024, 02:27:13 pm
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And how would they pursue you for any 'missing' penalty?
IMO, procedurally only by issuing a Charge Cert.
And as this is a parking contravention the following grounds apply in a Witness Statement:
(d)that he has paid the penalty charge to which the charge certificate relates.
And where these grounds apply:
'the enforcement authority shall refer the case to the adjudicator who may give such directions as he considers appropriate and the parties shall comply with those directions.'
Thanks. If you're saying its probably unlikely they'd bother with a charge certificate then I'm happy with that!
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And how would they pursue you for any 'missing' penalty?
IMO, procedurally only by issuing a Charge Cert.
And as this is a parking contravention the following grounds apply in a Witness Statement:
(d)that he has paid the penalty charge to which the charge certificate relates.
And where these grounds apply:
'the enforcement authority shall refer the case to the adjudicator who may give such directions as he considers appropriate and the parties shall comply with those directions.'
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I have no experience of the scenario you describe, but hopefully others can comment.
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Well, they could ask you for more money, but it would be unlawful. If they did, then obviously you'd want to raise an official complaint, and also take them to the adjudicators.
Yeah I would definitely raise a complaint.
Could you elaborate on unlawful regarding asking for more money. Hopefully it won't happen but worst case scenario, if for instance they said to me something like "there was an error on the payment page but our original PCN states £65 and therefore it must be paid", would the law not uphold the amount on the original PCN? Or would the law stand in my favour saying that I had made payment on time and since there was no way I was able to pay more than £40 that it is Barnet council's loss?
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Well, they could ask you for more money, but it would be unlawful. If they did, then obviously you'd want to raise an official complaint, and also take them to the adjudicators.
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A glitch at their end is not your problem.
Take a screenshot of the PCN status.
Thanks, yeah I've got four screenshots of the barnet council pages, including my payment details on the £40 payment page, the payment successful page, and screenshots of pages that say 'Outstanding:£0.00','PCN is complete'and one page where when I clicked on 'Pay and Enter Card Details' a box pops up saying 'No PCN(s) to pay' and 'The PCN(s) listed are not payable'. I've also got an email payment receipt saying,
"Thank you for your payment to Barnet.
PCN Number: 46954063
Amount: £40.00
Date: 18.12.2024"
And there's a confirmation code on the email. The address that the email is from is keyivr.co.uk. It seems they're a company that deals with payments on behalf of barnet.
As it's their glitch, they can't ask me for money or say I haven't paid the PCN yet, is that right?
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A glitch at their end is not your problem.
Take a screenshot of the PCN status.
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So you didn't do a screen capture of the amount demanded then ?
The £40 represents the 50% discount from a lower penalty parking PCN of £80.
Are you sure you haven't paid somebody else's PCN ?
Look above, I already posted a screen capture of the amount it said to pay (£40) and it shows the same penalty charge notice number as on the photo I posted earlier in this thread of the original paper penalty charge notice I received.
OK, fine, but this is rather strange, because the CEO's PCN records would be loaded direct to their IT system, as I doubt they are manually entered.
So if you now go in and enquire of that PCN, it should show it as paid.
Can you please post their letter of rejection, please.
Yes, it says PCN complete, there's no way it's letting me pay anything now. I've pasted the emailed letter of rejection:
Traffic Management Act 2004 RE: Informal Challenge for Penalty Charge Notice (PCN): AG46954063
Thank you for your correspondence received on 02/12/2024 in which you challenged the above PCN that was issued for the following contravention:
Contravention Date and Time: 16/11/2024 at 13:20 Vehicle Registration: FL07BJF Location: LONG LANE
Contravention: Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.
We have carefully considered the evidence you have supplied and decided not to cancel your PCN. The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed your vehicle parked adjacent to a dropped footway. The Traffic Management Act (PCN) 2004 allows for enforcement action (issue of a PCN) to be taken when a vehicle is parked adjacent to a dropped footway. This covers any dropped footway including those which allow vehicles to cross the footway, to gain access from or to a property and supported by photographic evidence. There is no requirement for a dropped kerb restriction to be signed or marked, as motorists are advised of the restriction in the rule 243 of the Highway Code, a publication to which they should have due regard. A vehicle does not have to be fully obstructing the dropped kerb to be committing a parking contravention. If any part of the vehicle is physically over the point where the footway meets the carriageway, this is considered a contravention. Please be advised that a code 27 contravention is an instant issue offence and there is no set observation period. If the CEO witnesses a stationary vehicle it is deemed to be parked and observed committing the contravention, therefore a PCN will be issued as in this instance. Although you may feel that this dropped kerb is obsolete this does not allow you to park obstructing it, regardless of the location of the adjacent wall or lack of corelating crossing points. Please be advised, parking across a dropped kerb may prevent residents and businesses from getting their vehicles in or out of their driveways. It could also prevent less mobile individuals, and those with pushchairs, from crossing the road safely. Whilst I appreciate what you have stated regretfully this does not justify the cancelation of the PCN.
What happens next? Because we have rejected your representations, we require you to choose one of the two options outlined immediately below:
- Pay within 14 days of the date of this letter at the 50% discounted amount of £65.00 and the case will be closed (see the How to Pay section at the end of this letter).
OR - Pay within 28 days of the date of this letter at the full amount of £130.00 and the case will be closed.
If you do not agree with our decision, you should: - Wait to receive the Notice to Owner (NtO). This is a statutory notice which will be served upon the owner / registered keeper of the vehicle following the expiry of 28 days from the date of this response.
- Once the Notice to Owner has been issued, the owner/registered keeper will have a statutory right to make a formal representation against the PCN. The Council has a statutory duty to consider all formal representations received and also to respond within the statutory timescales.
- If you are the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle and are intending to make a formal representation, you should not pay the PCN at this stage. If the registered keeper does make a formal representation then:
- The Council will investigate the formal representation and respond to him or her within 56 days from the date of receipt.
- If the representation is rejected thereafter, the Council will provide details in their response of the next stage in the appeal process, which is an appeal to the Independent Parking Adjudicator. We would also confirm that appeals to the Parking Adjudicator must be made in writing within 28 days from the date of service of the formal notice of rejection of representations.
- If the formal representation is rejected, the full amount of the penalty charge would be payable.
How to Pay?
- By phone - please dial 0208 359 7446, then press option 1
- By post - write the PCN (AG) number and vehicle registration on the back of the cheque or postal order and post it to: Barnet Parking Services, PO Box 197, Lowton Way, Hellaby, Sheffield, S98 1LW.
- Online - please visit the website at https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/
Yours sincerely Authorised Officer Barnet Parking Services
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So you didn't do a screen capture of the amount demanded then ?
The £40 represents the 50% discount from a lower penalty parking PCN of £80.
Are you sure you haven't paid somebody else's PCN ?
Look above, I already posted a screen capture of the amount it said to pay (£40) and it shows the same penalty charge notice number as on the photo I posted earlier in this thread of the original paper penalty charge notice I received.
OK, fine, but this is rather strange, because the CEO's PCN records would be loaded direct to their IT system, as I doubt they are manually entered.
So if you now go in and enquire of that PCN, it should show it as paid.
Can you please post their letter of rejection, please.
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So you didn't do a screen capture of the amount demanded then ?
The £40 represents the 50% discount from a lower penalty parking PCN of £80.
Are you sure you haven't paid somebody else's PCN ?
Look above, I already posted a screen capture of the amount it said to pay (£40) and it shows the same penalty charge notice number as on the photo I posted earlier in this thread of the original paper penalty charge notice I received.
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So you didn't do a screen capture of the amount demanded then ?
The £40 represents the 50% discount from a lower penalty parking PCN of £80.
Are you sure you haven't paid somebody else's PCN ?
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Hi guys, here's an update. I appealed the PCN but got a reply today saying they decided not to cancel it. They still allowed me to pay the 50% reduced amount which should be £65. I went to pay it online and it was asking for £40! So I've paid it now and got email confirmation. Not sure how it turned out to be £40 but are they allowed to come back to me and say I still need to pay another £25?
(https://i.postimg.cc/1fC6KYhk/Screenshot-20241218-150027-Opera.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1fC6KYhk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3kzvs4w9/Screenshot-20241218-151441-Opera.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3kzvs4w9)
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Do you know the residents of that house?
It is critical not to disclose the driver in challenges to private parking PCNs but it's not applicable to public authorities, which come under different legislation.
Thanks for the clarification on that.
On the point of the residents, I don't know them but I'll assume it's the people that rent the upstairs flat in front of where my car was parked that might have put in a complaint. I believe it's owned by the business that wrote my supporting letter and the residents are their tenants.
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Do you know the residents of that house?
It is critical not to disclose the driver in challenges to private parking PCNs but it's not applicable to public authorities, which come under different legislation.
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Thanks for replies. Ah well, costs nothing to try so I might as well still continue with the challenge and forward the supporting letter, even though I don't doubt what you're saying is correct. Probably won't work based on your finds, but there's still another 14 days to pay the reduced amount if they reject it.
By the way, just wanted to ask something else on a separate point regarding how to post here. I was a member of Pepipoo for years and only today I realised it's gone and is now basically these forums. At Pepipoo, I was always told to say 'the keeper' rather than admit myself, so was wondering why that's not the case now. Cheers.
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yep clearly is a dropped kerb (crossover) which rubbishes the letter that someone has written
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GSV is Google Street View on Google Maps and if you go the link I posted you can set back in time with the same view.
It looks like a clear if badly maintained crossover.
The issue is that it's very probably the person who lives in that house got upset and called Barnet, which has form in issuing petty PCns like this.
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Thanks.
OP, look at GSV, go back through the years and then compare what appears to be a clear vehicle crossover pre-dating 2008 with the owner's statement and then ask them if they want to continue with their assertion.
Thanks, I understand you're trying to help me acquire more ammunition but I'm afraid I don't really understand what you mean by clear vehicle crossover and I don't know what GSV is.
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Here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5980686,-0.1800061,3a,65.2y,29.84h,78.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDDzXeJFIaoSuCxReHOvcaw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D11.949080705236327%26panoid%3DDDzXeJFIaoSuCxReHOvcaw%26yaw%3D29.840471866570393!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTEyNC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Yes, that's the exact location.
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Thanks.
OP, look at GSV, go back through the years and then compare what appears to be a clear vehicle crossover pre-dating 2008 with the owner's statement and then ask them if they want to continue with their assertion.
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Here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5980686,-0.1800061,3a,65.2y,29.84h,78.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDDzXeJFIaoSuCxReHOvcaw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D11.949080705236327%26panoid%3DDDzXeJFIaoSuCxReHOvcaw%26yaw%3D29.840471866570393!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTEyNC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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Thanks, but Long Lane is over 0.6 miles in length.
This is the statutory prohibition:
86Prohibition of parking at dropped footways etc.
(1)In a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge where—
(a)the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway for the purpose of—
(i)assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway,
(ii)assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway, or
(iii)assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge; or
..and these are the exceptions (86(2)-86(7)- https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86
Detailed and complex as regards case law and tribunal decisions.
So we need toknow exactly where pl.
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Ok, here's the PCN again showing all details.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JGQGd2pt/20241128-133001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGQGd2pt)
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You've posted the council's pics but I've now asked for the location.
With council PCNs there is no need to hide anything other than name and address unless there are exceptional circumstances. And if it goes to the tribunal your name is public anyway.
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Don't hide the PCN number or car VRM (numberplate) - we need those.
Ok, I can do that. May I ask why those are important, particularly as I thought that sort of information was meant to be kept confidential? The keeper just needs help with wording the challenge and all the information relating to the PCN and why the PCN was wrongly issued is in the photo attachments.
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Come on - what's the location. No point in playing silly games. And I presume it's your car.
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Hi all. The keeper of the car received a PCN from Barnet Council and wishes to challenge it. The challenge needs to be in before Saturday.
The PCN was issued on the car which was parked in the road where the keeper lives, just a few yards down where there is a business premises. The challenge will be made by email so that the keeper can forward an email received from the owner of the business who has kindly written some information to help support the keeper's appeal.
I'm just hoping someone here can help with wording an appeal better than the keeper can other than just asking them to read the forwarded supporting email? Thank you.
I've attached the front and back of the PCN, some photos of the car from their website as taken by the person that created the PCN, and the email received from the business owner that will be forwarded to Barnet Council.
Couldn't get attachments to work so I'm including thumbnails that are expandable
(https://i.postimg.cc/zV2J9YYt/20241128-133001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zV2J9YYt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BX0ZxBcp/20241128-133006.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BX0ZxBcp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yDhZmNZg/Screenshot-20241128-133800-Opera.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDhZmNZg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qhq6HXZy/Screenshot-20241128-133844-Opera.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhq6HXZy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/phShWhg7/Screenshot-20241128-133903-Opera.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phShWhg7)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CnfZzM0K/Screenshot-20241128-132302-Email.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CnfZzM0K)