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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: atleastitwasntstolen on November 27, 2024, 12:12:08 am

Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: Incandescent on January 29, 2025, 12:23:49 am
It is also a total no-brainer to appeal to London Tribunals, because you have already paid all there is to pay, and could get some, or even all, of it back. If you lose you pay nothing more, its already paid.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: stamfordman on January 28, 2025, 10:14:15 pm
You must appeal to the tribunal within the 28 day deadline or lose the opportunity.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: atleastitwasntstolen on January 28, 2025, 07:57:24 pm
Update: I've unfortunately received a letter (dated January 9th) stating that my representations have not been successful. If I'm understanding correctly, an appeal would be due Thursday February 6th.

I've attached a copy of the letter here - is there any chance of an appeal being successful, and if so how would I best go about doing so?

Thanks for any help!
J



(https://i.imgur.com/IOR1Q8m.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/3JeAWCP.jpeg)


Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: smelly-beard on January 26, 2025, 08:10:28 pm
Hello! I’ve gathered the following additional info:
...

Was there a resolution to this? I am in a similar situation with Tower Hamlets and would be interested to hear their response to your appeal.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: Incandescent on December 17, 2024, 09:54:32 pm
As such, the suspension was not properly applied for, It's acceptance by the council was unlawful, not being within the council's own acceptance criteria, the suspension itself not valid, and my PCN should be voided.

PS: good on you for doing the homework !
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: atleastitwasntstolen on December 17, 2024, 08:37:42 pm
Hello! I’ve gathered the following additional info:
 
I’ve drafted the following, which I'll be submitting on Friday, and would very much appreciate any feedback:

-----
 
Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to my vehicle (Registration Number: LP13 JYJ) on 18 November 2024 for being parked in a partly or wholly suspended bay.

I would like to submit the following points in my representation for your review and consideration:

In light of the above points, I respectfully request that you cancel the PCN, vehicle removal, and storage fees. I believe that the circumstances surrounding this incident, including the questions surrounding appropriate suspension application procedures being followed, an unapproved suspension sign design being used, the lack of opportunity to rectify the situation, damage to the vehicle, and the financial burden caused by the delayed notification, warrant the cancellation of the associated charges.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: atleastitwasntstolen on December 02, 2024, 10:30:08 pm
Here is a link to the receipt image hosted on Imgur.  All the images in my previous posts were hosted on imgur and included using a BB code embed link as per the READ ME post directions, apologies if something didn't work quite right. I'll add links for the other photos of documents to the bottom of this post in case they're easier to read.
https://imgur.com/CepZsCI (https://imgur.com/CepZsCI)  

I've checked and it is the PCN evidence portal (https://towerhamlets.tarantoportal.com/) showing the outstanding PCN charge, not Trace. It shows that there is £40 still outstanding to pay on the PCN, even though I have reclaimed the vehicle. According to a sign at the pound, in Tower Hamlets storage charges go by 24h period from time of impound, with Sunday not counted. So 12:38pm Monday the 18th to before 12:38pm on Tuesday the 26th would have been 7 x £40 (eight 24h periods, minus 1 for the Sunday), whereas it would have been 8 x £40 after 12:38pm on Tuesday the 26th. I was there waiting to pick up the vehicle between 12:20pm and 12:30pm on Tuesday (earliest my work schedule would allow) and the staff member saw me waiting. There was one person at the window with a difficult case, so I was not called up and able to pay until after 12:38pm - they tried to charge me the extra £40 for it being after 12:38 and a new 24h period having started, but I pointed out I was present since before 12:30 and had been waiting in the queue, so they just charged me the £280 for storage (plus the other fees). I'll call up tomorrow to inquire why it still lists an outstanding £40 on the PCN. 

I have since found out that the suspension was for 25 car spaces "next to cycle hire station - opposite garage" for the purpose of filming. The date is listed as "18 November 2024 to 18 November 2024 at any time". The Suspension Reference Number is TTS0176903. I am still waiting to hear where the signs were posted and on which dates. I'm not sure if it's worth noting, but the first point on the Suspension Terms and Conditions is "Unless there are exceptional circumstances, no more than 10 car spaces will be approved per application per day for a suspension."
Source: https://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/transport_and_streets/Parking/Terms_and_conditions/Suspension-terms-and-conditions.aspx (https://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/transport_and_streets/Parking/Terms_and_conditions/Suspension-terms-and-conditions.aspx)

Receipt: https://imgur.com/CepZsCI (https://imgur.com/CepZsCI)
PCN front: https://imgur.com/KJGHViX (https://imgur.com/KJGHViX)
PCN back: https://imgur.com/sShemk3 (https://imgur.com/sShemk3)
Representations info: https://imgur.com/xhypSwY (https://imgur.com/xhypSwY)
Back of representations info: https://imgur.com/oq3cJDO (https://imgur.com/oq3cJDO)
Notification of vehicle removal: https://imgur.com/yLxfG2A (https://imgur.com/yLxfG2A)
Vehicle damage sustained during removal/storage: https://imgur.com/2q7DML9 (https://imgur.com/2q7DML9)
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: H C Andersen on November 29, 2024, 04:11:19 pm
I can't read the receipt easily, you must host externally and simply link here - see READ ME FIRST on the front page of the forum.

You paid £545 to get your car released.

£65+£200+£280 equals £545.


Anyway, car removed 18 Nov. therefore(and others correct if wrong pl) storage charges commence at midnight on 19th @£40 for each whole or part day that the vehicle is impounded after midnight 19th. Therefore 20-26th were whole or part storage days = 7 days.

7*£40 = £280.

What does 'They tried to charge me £40 extra because it's based on 24 hour periods and the car was listed on trace.london as being checked in to the pound at 12:38, so I pointed out I was there before 12:30 and they didn't have me pay the extra £40 (this still seems to be listed as outstanding on trace.london though).' mean? The charges have nothing to do with TRACE notifications.

What we do know is that the 28-day period ends on 23rd Dec, so no rush.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: atleastitwasntstolen on November 29, 2024, 01:22:59 pm
Sorry for my over-eagerness, two other posters had said next step for me was to draft representations so I wanted to make sure I wasn't dropping the ball.

I have contacted the filming office and the traffic tickets office to get further details regarding the specifics of the suspension, when it was applied for, when the signs were posted and where, and what specifically the sign said.

Regarding your questions re timeline (very thorough for completeness):


Receipt:
(https://i.imgur.com/CepZsCI.png)

Notification letter:
(https://i.imgur.com/yLxfG2A.jpeg)
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: H C Andersen on November 29, 2024, 09:45:20 am
OP, slow down pl.

As neither you, nor we nor the authority can see from the evidence what restriction was actually in place then IMO it's premature to draft reps.

In any event, let's get some hard facts pl because you have not posted the receipt from the pound therefore we don't know when the car was collected. (you've skirted around this in your narrative - not deliberately, it's just that you know and think what you've written conveys this clearly but, as tends to happen, the writer tends to confer on words a meaning which they already know and can't see matters from the perspective of those who don't!**).From this date comes the latest date for submission of in-time reps.

You might also ask the authority what the sign stated.


**- we're no different from the adjudicator in this regard. Given your circumstances i.e. didn't see sign when you parked or when you returned and are therefore wholly relying on the council's photos which, you would argue, are not clear and therefore deny you the opportunity of compiling a coherent appeal for want of knowing the detail of the contravention you're alleged to have committed, you would suggest that the adjudicator is in the same position and would ask that your appeal be allowed on this point because the evidence does not prove the contravention. If by any chance the authority were to include evidence in their submission to the adjudicator which set out the detail - because the evidence available to you online did not - then you would suggest that this was improper and should be disregarded.

But you're not there yet!
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: atleastitwasntstolen on November 28, 2024, 10:13:50 pm
Oh wow @Bayonet you're right. I'll definitely add that to my representations draft. Is there a precident of people having PCNs voided over that though? Definitely promising though
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: Bayonet on November 28, 2024, 07:19:32 pm
The suspension sign doesn't conform to the Authorisation drawing.
https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3525.pdf
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: atleastitwasntstolen on November 27, 2024, 11:22:53 pm
Thanks for all the responses and for locating the photos - I found them this morning but hadn't had a chance to post yet. Agreed that if the signs were there when I parked I won't have a case re the PCN, but good to know I can still argue that the tow was unnecessary. I also can't read what it says on the signs and whether the bay was only partially suspended (in which case the area I was in might not qualify) or fully suspended or what date the signs were posted.

Regarding the tow and the timing of the tow, I got I letter in the mail today notifying me that the car had been removed with the sentence "This letter gives notice under Regulation 12... that the London Borough of Tower Hamlets removed the above vehicle from Southern Grove on 18/11/2024 at 09:56 in accordance with Regulation 5C of the Regulations." This throws into question the timing of the tow (since the photos are timestamped differently) and whether they left any time between the PCN being given and the tow being done, which I take it would lend credibility to the tow to the pound being a disproportionate reaction compared to for example relocating the vehicle to the other side of the street.


Three main questions:





Representations draft (pending additional info I'm collecting tomorrow by calling the phone number for filming suspensions):


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) issued to my vehicle (Registration Number: LP13 JYJ) on 18 November 2024 for being parked in a partly or wholly suspended bay.
I would like to submit the following points in my representation for your review and consideration:
In light of the above points, I respectfully request that you cancel the vehicle removal and storage fees. I believe that the circumstances surrounding this incident, including the lack of opportunity to rectify the situation, damage to the vehicle, and the financial burden caused by the delayed notification, warrant the cancellation of the associated charges.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: H C Andersen on November 27, 2024, 11:03:26 am
+1

Photos are up.

Car clearly parked opposite Loweswater House, approx. 3 car lengths beyond a clear suspension sign on a lamp column. No other sign further on within sight. Orientation of car shows that this sign was passed. The wings of the suspension sign are clearly visible behind the car and there to be seen in daylight. Car was lifted at approx. 12.11, over 2 hours after PCN was issued.

OP, I don't think you stand any chance with these angles. Your other references to not visiting the car often and passenger's condition are only mitigation IMO.
Which IMO leaves:

What did the sign state(unreadable in full);
When erected and was it in situ when you parked;
Why was your car not moved as opposed to removed;
Was the suspension underpinned by a lawful order?

Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: stamfordman on November 27, 2024, 10:45:19 am
The suspension sign was on a parking sign behind and I can't see another nearer parking sign so it seems the PCN looks OK although the impounding probably disproportionate as we often see.

There are two pics of the suspension sign but the wording can't be read except it looks like a one day suspension.

(https://i.ibb.co/tQkD42m/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-37-39.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/PZgnsZP/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-37-27.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/0CXnLjc/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-38-40.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/XtL60yn/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-37-54.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/d6RXyhy/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-38-35.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/1rG2Yms/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-39-27.png)
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: John U.K. on November 27, 2024, 08:31:43 am
+1 to Incandescent's advice.

Please note that some Councils take down online photos when a PCN is paid, so you may have to chase them by 'phone or e-mail. Do not let any tardiness from the Council in providing photos prevent you getting on with drafting reps.

Your reps should be in two parts: 1st against the PCN itself, and 2nd against the tow as being disproportionate (why didn't Council relocate?).

You can also add the justifiable gripe about the lack of notification (not that they will allow this) leading to disproportionate storage charges.

As advised, please post a draft here for comment, but do not miss deadlines.
Title: Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: Incandescent on November 27, 2024, 12:36:35 am
If there is any good news at all, it is that you have now paid all there is to pay, therefore submitting representations against the PCN, tow, and the excessive storage charges is a no-brainer. In addition, registering an appeal at London Tribunals as well when you are inevitably rejected by the council is also a no-brainer, because there would be no additional costs or penalty in doing so.

However, whilst you have posted some photos, we need to see those the CEO will no doubt have taken. This is because in your narrative, it is clear that you didn't see any suspension sign when you parked in broad daylight, and when you returned to drive your car some days later and found it missing, there were also no suspension signs.

So please give us a GSV link to the exact location of parking, and if you can, find the council photos, download them and post them here. It is more than likely that the suspension sign was erected after you parked, in which case you were parked legally when the suspension sign(s) was erected. Councils are notoriously bad at giving advance notice of suspensions. 

You should now write some representations and post them here for review. This needs to be based on your narrative here, namely that you saw no suspension signs in position when you parked on <date>, and on return to your car on <date> found the car missing and then found out the car had been towed from a supposedly suspended parking area. State that you deny responsibility for the PCN and subsequent tow and storage costs as the contravention did not occur because there was no sign advising of a suspension.
Title: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space, Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
Post by: atleastitwasntstolen on November 27, 2024, 12:12:08 am
Thank you in advance for any help – I recognise I may not have a case here, but it’s my first time having this happen (I’ve only had the car 5 months and never had a parking ticket with any of my previous cars) and if there’s a chance of getting part of this fee back I’ll give it a go! The towing also resulted in quite a long scratch along the side of my car (might buff out, but not sure). [Edited to fix formatting]


Context: 

I have a parking permit for the area and typically park on Southern Grove because my nearby street is always packed. I was parked on another part of Southern Grove earlier on Sunday 17th, took the car out very briefly and returned to Southern Grove and chose the first available parking spot along a stretch I always park on that I know is covered by my permit. I was transporting my partner who had an eye surgery several days earlier and is super light sensitive and he was doing really badly with reflections, glare, etc in the car so my goal was to get parked and him home as soon as possible. Neither of us saw any signs regarding a parking suspension. According to the PCN, my car was ticketed Monday the 18th shortly before 10am and presumably towed shortly or immediately after because the car was checked into the THC pound at 12:38pm. I was not notified the car had been impounded and because I only use the car about once a week didn’t figure out it was taken until Monday the 25th, resulting in a ridiculously high reclaim fee. It appears that during the tow/while at THC pound there was also a long, shallow scratch along the side of the car (photo attached).  


My questions at the moment:   



In summary, if they come back and say “yes there were signs, you should have looked harder” I get that, but the impound fee seems really unreasonable to me. Surely the daily fee incentivises them to not inform you and there should really be some type of protections around this/rules that they can’t start charging you for storage until they have notified you?


Items provided at time of picking up the car: 
At time of picking up today, I was supplied with a receipt of my payment and a copy of the PCN and a “Representations against removal of vehicle” sheet, attached below. 


PCN front: 

(https://i.imgur.com/KJGHViX.jpeg)


PCN back:  
(https://i.imgur.com/sShemk3.jpeg)

Representations against removal of vehicle front:
(https://i.imgur.com/xhypSwY.jpeg) <br>

Repr back: 
(https://i.imgur.com/oq3cJDO.jpeg) <br>

Scratch on car: 
(https://i.imgur.com/2q7DML9.jpeg) <br>


Location:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/bByRn96FtnM6wgAm7

Signage at location on Nov 25:  (https://i.imgur.com/IJTrOlI.jpeg) 



Thanks for any help and apologies for any formatting issues - first time posting here and first time using imgur.