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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Loops on November 26, 2024, 09:37:36 am

Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on January 10, 2025, 08:39:19 am
They have now sent an email confirmation
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: DWMB2 on January 09, 2025, 11:12:18 pm
If I were you, I'd try to get that verbal confirmation in writing.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on January 09, 2025, 10:47:22 pm
I received a call from PALS at Chase Farm Hospital today to say that they had instructed Parking Eye to cancel the parking charge.
I haven’t as yet had any response to my appeal to Parkingeye. Maybe I won’t now.
Thanks for all your help and advice.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on December 20, 2024, 07:54:51 pm
Thank you. And thanks for responding so quickly!
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on December 20, 2024, 07:37:59 pm
You do not need to give an unregulated private parking company any other details than what has been advised above.

Don't try and overthink this.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on December 20, 2024, 07:34:49 pm
I am submitting my appeal and am not sure whether I should give my daughter’s name and hospital details as supporting evidence. I would appreciate your advice. Thank you.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on December 18, 2024, 07:49:30 pm
Only the Keeper can appeal. So, it is your husband who is appealing. He is under no legal obligation to identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company and should not so so.

If part of the appeal is that the operator has failed to fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA, then the Keeper cannot be liable, so why would he want to identify you as the driver?

The operator as no idea who the driver is and if they haven't complied with all the requirements of PoFA they cannot transfer liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper. They are not allowed to assume or infer that the Keeper must also be the driver.

The would be put to strict proof that the Keeper was the driver. How do you imagine they could prove that?

They are now in a Ctch 22 situation where they have no legal leg to stand on.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on December 18, 2024, 07:31:49 pm
Thank you so much for this. It’s amazing.
I was driving but my husband is the registered keeper. So we put in the appeal in his name but shall I say ‘ the driver’ or ‘my wife’?
I have contacted PALS this week as well and my contact has been very proactive in trying to get the parking team to respond and has referred it up to their manager. Still no response as yet.
I’ll try the CEO!
Thanks again.
I’ll let you know how I get on.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on December 18, 2024, 04:16:49 pm
Here is the suggested appeal (only as the Keeper) that you should only submit if you've not heard back from PALS by the 23rd December:

Quote
Re: Parking Charge Notice [PCN Reference Number]

I am writing as the registered keeper of the vehicle to formally appeal the Parking Charge Notice issued for an alleged 3-minute overstay in the hospital drop-off and collection zone. I believe this charge is unreasonable, unjustified, and in breach of industry regulations. It should therefore be cancelled for the following reasons:

1. Exceptional Circumstances

The vehicle was used to collect a patient who had undergone day surgery under general anaesthetic. The driver was directed by the hospital to park at the drop-off and collection point directly outside the entrance. Upon arrival, the driver went to the second-floor day surgery ward to inform staff and assist the patient in their discharge process. The patient was experiencing significant difficulty walking, which required additional care and time to safely return to the vehicle.

2. Minimal Overstay

The alleged overstay is just 3 minutes, which is a de minimis breach under these circumstances. The hospital was deserted at that time of night, and the additional time taken caused no obstruction or inconvenience to other users of the drop-off area.

3. Breach of Codes of Practice Regarding Notification of Material Changes

It is understood that the "free" parking time in the drop-off zone was recently reduced from 20 minutes to 15 minutes. To my knowledge, no adequate notification of this material change was provided to users. This omission constitutes a breach of:

• BPA Code of Practice v9, Section 19.10

• Private Parking Single Code of Practice 2024, Section 3.4

Both Codes of Practice require parking operators to place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months to clearly notify motorists of material changes, such as reductions in time limits.

Failure to provide such notices has resulted in regular visitors, including the driver, being unaware of this change. The lack of clear and prominent notification fails the standard of transparency and fair communication required by the industry codes.

4. Complaint to the Hospital PALS

This Parking Charge Notice has been reported to the hospital's Patient Advice and Liaison Service (PALS) as grossly unfair, given the circumstances of collecting a vulnerable patient post-surgery and the driver having followed the instructions given by the hospital itself. I am currently awaiting a decision from PALS, who are reviewing the matter.

5. Disproportionate Charge

The charge of £100 for an alleged 3-minute overstay is grossly disproportionate and fails the principles of fairness and proportionality outlined in the relevant Codes of Practice. It does not reflect any genuine pre-estimate of loss or deterrence, especially considering the lack of any harm caused to other users.

Request for Further Information

In light of the above, I request that this Parking Charge Notice be cancelled. Should you choose to reject this appeal, I require the following:

1. A detailed explanation of how the Parking Charge is justified, particularly for the alleged overstay of 3 minutes.

2.  Evidence demonstrating that the change to the free parking time was communicated in compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (v9) and the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (2024), including:

• Dates and methods of communication used to notify users of the change.

• A copy of the signage in place at the time of the alleged incident, showing the stated terms.

3. A map of the site indicating the location of all signs.

4. A POPLA verification code to enable me to escalate this matter for independent adjudication.

I trust that Parkingeye will review this appeal fairly and cancel the charge in recognition of the circumstances and regulatory breaches outlined. Failure to cancel the PCN will leave me with no option other than to raise a formal complaint with the BPA.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on December 18, 2024, 03:43:23 pm
You have another 6 days before the appeal deadline. Chase up PALS and tell them to hurry up and respond. Send an email to the CEO of the NHS Trust complaining about PALS tardiness and ask them to get involved in getting this unfair PCN cancelled.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on December 18, 2024, 02:54:25 pm
“You have until 24th December to submit an appeal (28 days from "delivery" of the NtK which is 2 working days after the issue date). So no rush to appeal to PE just yet. You have 4 weeks before you need to submit anything.

If you've not heard back from PALS a few days before the appeal deadline, come back here and remind us and we will give you something to put in an appeal.“

I still haven’t had any response from the parking team at Chase Farm PALS so I’m going to have to submit my appeal.

Please can I take you up on your offer to help and advise me what to put in my appeal.
I plan to give mitigating circumstances that I could not have collected my daughter and returned to the car any more quickly than we did but is there anything else I should mention and are there key words or phrases I should use?

Thanks
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on December 06, 2024, 04:16:01 pm
You don't have to pay if you lose at POPLA. You would then have to wait and see if they decide to try and litigate. It will all depend on whether they believe they have a chance at getting a judge in the small claims track of the county court to agree with them that you owe them a debt.

The best outcome is them either not bothering to go all the way or, if they do, you win anyway. Worst case scenario, they win and you would owe them around £185 which would include all their costs etc. However, if they are unsure of their case, they will use DCB Legal to issue the claim on their behalf and they will eventually discontinue.

No danger to your credit record, even if you were to lose as a CCJ paid in full within 28 days of judgment is completely expunged from the record. The odds of losing this are low.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on December 06, 2024, 04:01:10 pm

I will take it to the Popla tribunal if that happens but I am not clear how much I would have to pay if I lost at tribunal. Would it still be £60 or £100?
At POPLA the full £100 would likely be in play.

If this is the case then should I wait for the 28 days before appealing?

If the charge will be £100 if I lose at Popla tribunal then there’s no rush.

Have I understood this properly?
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on December 06, 2024, 03:09:48 pm
I have been chasing PALS who have referred my case to the parking team. They have not got back to PALS so another email was sent by PALS to the manager of the parking team today requesting they deal with it ASAP.
PALS advised me to appeal in the meantime and they hoped to hear back within the week!
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on December 06, 2024, 03:07:15 pm
Even if you were unsuccessful at POPLA, you are not obliged to pay it. You are obviously being influenced by the "mugs discount".

You can fight it or fund them.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: DWMB2 on December 06, 2024, 03:03:58 pm
I will take it to the Popla tribunal if that happens but I am not clear how much I would have to pay if I lost at tribunal. Would it still be £60 or £100?
At POPLA the full £100 would likely be in play.

What steps have you been taking to chase up PALS?
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on December 06, 2024, 02:55:33 pm
Today is 14 days since the fine was issued by Parkingeye. I have not heard back from PALS - apparently they are understaffed and are dealing with lots of parking disputes!
 I think I will appeal as I do not want to have to pay the £100 if I lose the appeal (which seems to be what I am being advised on here will happen)
I will take it to the Popla tribunal if that happens but I am not clear how much I would have to pay if I lost at tribunal. Would it still be £60 or £100?
I would really appreciate more advice. What grounds can I appeal on apart from the fact they are being totally unreasonable to charge £100 for taking an extra 3 minutes to collect a patient after surgery!
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on November 27, 2024, 01:39:50 pm
Any idea how long it will take for PALS to get a decision?
How long is a piece of string? You could always chase them up. I advise against making an appeal to PE until the last possible day if you have not yet heard back from PALS.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on November 27, 2024, 01:36:00 pm
Any idea how long it will take for PALS to get a decision?
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on November 27, 2024, 01:29:01 pm
The "material change" notice argument is only valid if it is less than 4 months since the implementation. It is a requirement of the SCoP. If it was over 6 months ago, then that point is a non-starter.

PE NtKs are never FULLY compliant with PoFA because they fail to specifically invite the Keeper to pay the charge. PoFA paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) is the relevant one. However, it is unlikely that PE would agree and most POPLA assessors skip over the point by ignoring the "invitation" element of the paragraph by simply parroting 9(2)(e)(ii).

The NtK only informs the Keeper that the driver is liable to pay the charge or else the Keeper will become liable. That is not an invitation, under any interpretation of the word, for the Keeper to pay. Some would argue the inference is there that the Keeper should or can pay. However, that is not the same as inviting the Keeper to pay.

As for appealing to PE before any PALS enquiry is not advised. We know that PE will reject any appeal anyway. By getting an appeal rejection earlier, you are reducing the amount of time before you have to make a POPLA appeal.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on November 27, 2024, 01:18:20 pm
Thanks for your comments everyone. I think I will wait 14 days to appeal to Parkingeye hoping that I might have success through the PALS route.
I am prepared to take it to tribunal if I have no success in overturning the fine by either means.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: mickR on November 27, 2024, 12:47:58 pm
@b789 it was probably over 6 months ago the free time was changed.

I would hope PALs will sort this but I think an early appeal to PE would be interesting to see how they react in this instance, with a genuine reason for overstay. if it's unfavourable (more thsn likely) that would be reason for a formal complaint to the Royal Free trust. (just to stir the pot) 

I see this is a Pofa pcn from PE but is it fully compliant?
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: DWMB2 on November 27, 2024, 09:36:51 am
What people are saying is that you won't have to pay the £60 or the £100.
That's not quite what we are saying, we're not in the business of providing guarantees of success.

But, we can almost guarantee that ParkingEye will reject your appeal, because they can. I generally suggest you should either be prepared to fight the matter all the way, or not at all.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: dave-o on November 27, 2024, 09:35:16 am
I definitely wasn’t planning to pay the £60. I just wondered if I should log my appeal with them within the 14 day limit so if the worst happens and I’m not successful I wouldn’t have to pay £100!

What people are saying is that you won't have to pay the £60 or the £100.  This isn't a government or police regulated system with fair processes or reasonable costs, it is a scam operated by the worst elements in society.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on November 26, 2024, 10:03:25 pm
I definitely wasn’t planning to pay the £60. I just wondered if I should log my appeal with them within the 14 day limit so if the worst happens and I’m not successful I wouldn’t have to pay £100!
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: DWMB2 on November 26, 2024, 06:07:53 pm
Quote
no one who is here receiving advice, pays a penny to ECP.
Especially not when the charge wasn't issued by ECP  ;)

PALS is definitely worth exhausting your efforts with.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on November 26, 2024, 06:03:20 pm
You are talking about the "mugs discount". It is designed to get "mugs" to simply make their lives easier by conning the gullible into paying them without having to go through the process of appealing or litigating.

It's your choice. If you think you should simply pay an unregulated private parking company £60 because they have sent you a speculative invoice, then go ahead. If you believe that you owe a bunch of ex-clamper thugs £60 because they simply say you owe them, that is up to you.

THese companies have a modus operandi. They issue these "invoices" in the hope that the recipient is low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree, ripe for the picking. They know that the majority of their victims are ignorant of the law and their rights.

As I already mentioned, no one who is here receiving advice, pays a penny to ECP. If you feel £60 is worth your while to fund the scammers, it's up to you.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on November 26, 2024, 05:05:58 pm
Thankyou. I understand I have 28 days to appeal but only 14 days to have the option of paying the ‘discounted’ fine of £60. If I wait 28 days to appeal and are then unsuccessful will I have to pay the full £100?
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on November 26, 2024, 04:12:18 pm
You have until 24th December to submit an appeal (28 days from "delivery" of the NtK which is 2 working days after the issue date). So no rush to appeal to PE just yet. You have 4 weeks before you need to submit anything.

If you've not heard back from PALS a few days before the appeal deadline, come back here and remind us and we will give you something to put in an appeal.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on November 26, 2024, 04:02:58 pm
I have contacted PALS at Chase Farm. They say they will contact Parkingeye to request they cancel the PCN but in the meantime I should appeal to Parkingeye.
Any suggestions as to how I should tackle this?
Thanks
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: b789 on November 26, 2024, 03:57:44 pm
If the allowed waiting time was change recently (within the last 4 months) then section 3.4 of the Single Code of Practice applies:

Quote
3.4. Material changes – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.

As advised above, your first port of call is PALS.
Title: Re: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: mickR on November 26, 2024, 09:47:08 am
please post the back of the pcn.
the "free" time in drop off zone was recently reduced from 20mins to 15mins. to my knowledge there was NO  notification of this change.

first stop is PALs at the hospital and tell them what happened as it was unforseen and ask to get the pcn cancelled.

let us know what they say

also
READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**,

https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/
Title: Chase Farm Hospital Parkingeye parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at ‘free’ collections point
Post by: Loops on November 26, 2024, 09:37:36 am
Parkingeye have issued a parking charge notice for 3 minute overstay at the drop off and collection point.
The patient had day surgery under general anaesthetic so had to be collected from the ward.
The driver was called by the hospital to say the patient could be collected and directed to park at the free drop off point directly outside the hospital entrance.
On arrival the driver went directly up to the day surgery ward on the 2nd floor and found a nurse to inform her they were here to collect the patient. They waited a short while for the patient to be discharged and slowly made their way back to the car as the patient was having difficulty walking and getting into the car.
They then drove off.
Parkingeye are charging £100 for overstaying the permitted time by 3 minutes!
The hospital was practically deserted at this time of night and no other cars were denied the parking space.
Please advise. Thank you.

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