The OP said reps were sent, whether they were made is to be determined. We don't know to what email address, how this was obtained, from whom, with what assurances, if any, their form and when.
OP, pl let's try and establish these details pl.
Or is this is now off thread?
@WaltWhite please email me unredacted copies of those and I'll forward them to the LGO.
The facts according to you are that you sent representations.No, the facts are that WaltWhite was unable to submit representations in the form and manner stated on the PCN, because the website prevented this. That is quite different from saying that representations were in fact made.
It seems a complaint to the LGO is required, this will be far easier if I do it for you, so I'm going to drop you a PM.
It seems a complaint to the LGO is required, this will be far easier if I do it for you, so I'm going to drop you a PM.
In practice even if an OfR is issued, a warrant would not be granted for at least 35 days, so you'll have the stage 2 response before that happens.
The legal process was deliberately set up to avoid the county courts. That's why there is the Traffic Enforcement Centre. It is a form of county court, but with no courtrooms, and no judges too. Judges only become involved with reviews of TEC decisions. Of course this hasn't stopped councils intimidating people by putting 'county court' on their enforcement documents.@WaltWhite PCN debts do not appear on your credit history nor anywhere else, an Order for Recovery is not a CCJ and they do not have to be declared anywhere at all.
Thank you @cp8759 that is reassuring. Most appreciated.
The legal process was deliberately set up to avoid the county courts. That's why there is the Traffic Enforcement Centre. It is a form of county court, but with no courtrooms, and no judges too. Judges only become involved with reviews of TEC decisions. Of course this hasn't stopped councils intimidating people by putting 'county court' on their enforcement documents.@WaltWhite PCN debts do not appear on your credit history nor anywhere else, an Order for Recovery is not a CCJ and they do not have to be declared anywhere at all.
Thank you @cp8759 that is reassuring. Most appreciated.
@WaltWhite PCN debts do not appear on your credit history nor anywhere else, an Order for Recovery is not a CCJ and they do not have to be declared anywhere at all.
OK so what is my next step here?Wait for the complaint outcome.
OK so what is my next step here?Wait for the complaint outcome.
It is a letter intended to intimidate you into paying by using the words "County Court". People then panic and cough-up thinking it means a CCJ. Well, it doesn't. In the enforcement process of all PCNs, there is no possible prospect of a CCJ, because this possibility was deliberately excluded from the legislation. That is why there is the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
My personal opinion is that such letters are unlawful but there is no legal way of getting this accepted, it seems.
Yes. The file ‘Properties’ show the screenshot as taken on the 15th Dec. Hopefully that’s ok?Yes that's fine.
Happy New Year.No, you have to use the formal complaints process.
I did try and submit reps on the 15th but the system wouldn’t allow me to. I then emailed them to the Parking team at the council a couple of days later when I got their contact details. No response to them though yet.
Would that count as one of the statutory grounds?
Do you have a timed / dated screenshot from the 15th showing that the system wouldn't allow you to submit a representation?
Happy New Year.No, you have to use the formal complaints process.
I did try and submit reps on the 15th but the system wouldn’t allow me to. I then emailed them to the Parking team at the council a couple of days later when I got their contact details. No response to them though yet.
Would that count as one of the statutory grounds?
As far as I can see, the sender of the email knows absolutely nothing about the process, because none of the reasons above seem to fit your circumstances, although you did attempt to submit reps but the system would not accept them, so I would tick the second ground if it were me. You did make representations !+1, council officers often try and be helpful but have no idea what they're talking about. @WaltWhite please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see none of the three statutory grounds for filing a PE3 apply to your case.
As far as I can see, the sender of the email knows absolutely nothing about the process, because none of the reasons above seem to fit your circumstances, although you did attempt to submit reps but the system would not accept them, so I would tick the second ground if it were me. You did make representations !+1, council officers often try and be helpful but have no idea what they're talking about. @WaltWhite please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see none of the three statutory grounds for filing a PE3 apply to your case.
So should I wait till the 13th for the outcome or go straight to the stage 2 complaint as you suggested @cp8759 ?
So you need to make a stage 2 complaint, as explained here: https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/media/10046/corporate-complaints-policy_tp.pdf
Post a draft on here first please.
@WaltWhite so what's your relationship to the registered keeper?
Remind them of this:
ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2240175190
Appellant Parag Sharma
Authority London Borough of Redbridge
VRM WM66HSA
PCN Details
PCN AF98203157
Contravention date 10 Feb 2024
Contravention time 15:01:00
Contravention location Horns Road
Penalty amount GBP 130.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date
Decision Date 11 Jun 2024
Adjudicator Andrew Harman
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons
The appellant attended the hearing today via telephone. Mr Morgan appeared before me to make submissions on their behalf in accordance with those set out in writing. Upon the point being raised by Mr Morgan. The PCN was issued on 15/02/24. A charge certificate was issued on 15/03/24. The council was empowered to issue a charge certificate 28 days from date of service of the PCN. It however had done so within 28 days of its date of issue in breach of the Regulations and to the potential prejudice to the appellant in the conduct of their appeal. I was satisfied for those reasons that enforcement may not be pursued.
OP, we're trying to tell you that the fault is THEIRS, not yours.
It is immaterial in law whether you make reps on day 1 or day 28 of the permitted period: in time is in time, end of.
You were prevented from making lawful reps by the unlawful actions of the council is not allowing reps to be made up to and including day 28. If fact it is UNLAWFUL for them to prevent you making reps late. Their remedy is to disregard them, NOT prevent them from being made.
3)The enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served.
So stop worrying.....unless your proof that you were prevented from making reps online within the 28-day period doesn't stack up.
But if it does then see this through. Wait for the authority's response.
I think they have cocked this up, and being prevented from following the statutory appeal process is one of the few grounds under which the Local Government Ombudsman would consider a complaint.Although on-line submissions mean the rule only applies to reps sent by post, it is important to remember that the reps have to be received by the council within the 28 day period.
So am I out of luck on this one? I would rather pay than take any more risk. Unless they have really cocked this up
Did you take a screenshot on the 15th showing that you could not submit representations?
I think they have cocked this up, and being prevented from following the statutory appeal process is one of the few grounds under which the Local Government Ombudsman would consider a complaint.Although on-line submissions mean the rule only applies to reps sent by post, it is important to remember that the reps have to be received by the council within the 28 day period.
So am I out of luck on this one? I would rather pay than take any more risk. Unless they have really cocked this up
So them registering the debt at TEC and the amount going up by £10 represents more risk ? Surely not ! You need to wait until you at least get some response from the council to your complaints. The plain fact is they have cocked things up.Although on-line submissions mean the rule only applies to reps sent by post, it is important to remember that the reps have to be received by the council within the 28 day period.
So am I out of luck on this one? I would rather pay than take any more risk. Unless they have really cocked this up
Although on-line submissions mean the rule only applies to reps sent by post, it is important to remember that the reps have to be received by the council within the 28 day period.
IMO,
The CC was NOT served (the criterion is not 'issue', it is service) prematurely.
CC dated Fri. 13th Dec, therefore deemed served Tues. 17th.
PCN issued 14 Nov, deemed served Mon. 18th. Last day of 28-day period for payment was 11 Dec. But last day of reps period was 15 Dec.
As CC not even issued until 13th it could not be premature because you hadn't paid and hadn't made reps.
However, this is not the nub of the matter.
The authority are obliged to consider reps made in time.
But you didn't make reps in time.
At this stage you're really behind the 8-ball.
But you posted:
I didnt submit reps. I was advised to hold till last minute. I went to submit within the timeline that I was advised was ok, and the online website wouldnt allow me too.[/b]
And this is the issue IMO. They put themselves in jeopardy because they issued a CC before the end of the 28-day representations period AND you say you were prevented you from making reps before the end of this period. What a shambles - the drafting c**k-up referred to previously.
To put concisely:
28 days to pay beginning on date PCN issued;
28 days in which to make reps beginning on date of service;
This trigger-happy authority(again referred to by another poster) are in the s**t if reps are made after the end of the payment period and before the end of the reps period and they've issued a CC.
But they connive to save themselves by preventing you making reps after a CC has been issued.
Anyway, you've sent reps by email but whether these will be considered is anyone's guess because email is not a prescribed method(these are online and by post).
If they disregard your reps because they were made late and/or by email then IMO you'll need to follow the complaints route because a SD cannot be submitted because none of the grounds applies.
DO NOT PAY THIS!
As stated by other posters, they have messed this up badly, if you follow the process then you'll have nothing to pay and a decent change of getting an apology and compensation for time wasted.
Others will be along to advise you on what to do to get this infront of someone who understands how badly they have messed up... but paying is definitely not the right move, you'd lose your chance to appeal as well as being out of pocket!
Why they are asking about recipt of the PCN, when it is a postal PCN and you have already submitted reps against it is beyond me. However we know the intellectual level of staff in these enforcement offices is not high.
So you need to email back that you received the postal PCN and submitted reps but received no response, and that the CC was the next document you received after the PCN.
Enclose copies of all to and fro messages
So what have you been asked to do, (it's not entirely clear to me, sorry) ?
Send it and do not wait. I would make a formal complaint too.
Ok thanks, last night I have sent the response similar to your draft and also the representations with relevant photos, screenshots.
Sorry for my lack of knowledge here how would I make a formal complaint?
Here is my email regarding premature issuing of Charge Certificate sent to LB Redbridge yesterday:
Dear LB Redbridge:
I acknowledge receipt of the Charge Certificate pertaining to PCN ..... VRM ......
The date of the PCN is November 14th 2024. Therefore, the deemed date of service is November 18th. Clearly, you have prematurely issued a Charge Certificate. It follows that the earliest you may serve such a document is 15th December. I also note that this is par for the course as you have recently lost a case on the same issue.
Therefore, please cancel the Charge Certificate so that I may make formal representations to which I am entitled according to the statutory process.
This is not a matter for discretion - rather a matter of statutory compliance.
Yours,
Here is their response received this morning:
Parking and Traffic Enforcement
8:50 AM (38 minutes ago)
to me
Good Morning,
Thank you for your email.
Please can you confirm if the Penalty Charge Notice was received?
Regards,
Shalinaaz Aziz
Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge
Web: www.redbridge.gov.uk
Twitter: @RedbridgeLive
Facebook: @RedbridgeCouncilOfficial
Instagram: @redbridgecouncil
TikTok: @redbridgecouncil
LONDON BOROUGH OF REDBRIDGE DISCLAIMER
This email contains proprietary confidential information some or all of which may be legally privileged and/or subject to the provisions of privacy legislation. It is intended solely for the addressee.
If you are not the intended recipient, an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail; you must not use, disclose, copy, print or disseminate the information contained within this e-mail.
Please notify the author immediately by replying to this email. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states these to be the views of the London Borough of Redbridge.
This email has been scanned for all viruses and all reasonable precautions have been taken to ensure that no viruses are present.
The London Borough of Redbridge cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments.
I have not replied yet. I would be grateful for assistance on next steps.
I also sent in representations to the same email address. I wasnt sure if I was supposed to send it then or not but did so anyway. Please see the email below and their response. Again I would be grateful on guidance here.
arking and Traffic Enforcement
8:51 AM (1 hour ago)
to me
Good Morning,
Thank you for your email.
Please can you confirm if the Penalty Charge Notice was received?
Regards,
Shalinaaz Aziz
Business Administrator
Parking Management
London Borough of Redbridge
Web: www.redbridge.gov.uk
Twitter: @RedbridgeLive
Facebook: @RedbridgeCouncilOfficial
Instagram: @redbridgecouncil
TikTok: @redbridgecouncil
From:
Sent: 17 December 2024 23:06
To: Parking and Traffic Enforcement <parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk>; Parking and Traffic Enforcement <highways.parkingappeals@redbridge.gov.uk>; Parking and Traffic Enforcement <highways.parkingmanagement@redbridge.gov.uk>
Subject: Representations AF3....... (tried to submit this via website on 15th Dec)
Dear Sir Madam,
I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) number AF...... issued to myself for allegedly failing to comply with traffic restrictions on Cleveland Rd, Ilford IG1. I believe that this charge has been unfairly issued and wish to present my case for your consideration.
Firstly the sign indicating the restriction against traffic is not of the 'hinged' type that should be only visible during School Term Time. This type of sign has not received authorisation as suitable signage to traffic outside of the School zone, from the Department of Transport, rending the PCN here null and void.
Secondly when attempting to make an online representation against this PCN, the website fetters discretion with regards to the grounds allowed. The LB Redbridge website indicates which grounds will not be considered here, and a public body should not adopt such a rigid policy that prevents it from exercising discretion in individual cases. I attach screenshots from the LB Redbridge website.
Finally the online representation page fetters to only one ground only for representation. Again this is unfair and does not allow for proper consideration of the possible grounds for a PCN to be contested. I also attach screenshots from the LB Redbridge website.
I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.
Kind regards,
Hope its clear and sorry for long post. Can break it down if helps. As always any assistance gratefully received
Send it and do not wait. I would make a formal complaint too.
DO NOT PAY THIS!
Dear Redbridge
I acknowledge receipt of the Charge Certificate pertaining to PCN..................VRM................
The date of the PCN is November 14th. Therefore, the deemed date of service is November 18th. Clearly, you have prematurely issued a Charge Certificate. It follows that the earliest you may serve such a document is 15th December. I also note that this is par for the course as you have recently lost a case on the same issue.
Therefore, please cancel the Charge Certificate so that I may make formal representations to which I am entitled according to the statutory process.
This is not a matter for discretion - rather a matter of statutory compliance.
Yours
**
Send it to their e mail address and mark it urgent. AND put in your representations too.
parkingandtrafficenforcement@redbridge.gov.uk
The PCN says a CC may be served after 28 days from date of service.
"If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge or make representations before the end of a period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice an increased charge of £195 may be payable. We may send you a Charge Certificate seeking payment of this increased amount."
Have the council got their IT in a twizzle ? It is a stupid quirk of the LLA & TfL Act 2003 that the period for payment of the penalty is 28 days from date of notice, but date to submit reps is 28 days from date of service. You do have to wonder at the intellect of the drafters of the above Act. Just how stupid can you be !
So I've tried to challenge the PCN today, as per a post on here I thought the last date would be today the 15th?
When I went to challenge it online today (the 15th) it said I only had the option to pay it - which is now £195.
What are my options? Can I still challenge or do I just have to pay the £195 and thats it >:(
I can’t see your draft @Hippocrates
I would include the relevant screenshots and I am also considering HCA's point about the PCN. I have a case today but will get back in the evening to tweak.
Forget the 14 days as they will reoffer the discount. It really is very important to put in sound representations.
Please put up your own draft first.
My main issues:
1. The sign is proscribed.
2. Their website fetters discretion re the grounds not allowed.
3. The representation page fetters to one ground only.
2 and 3 come under a collateral challenge.
Hi
The 14 days are up today so I will put in a representation.
Thanks again
Please hold fire. Please screenshot the page with the grounds NOT allowed.
14 days isn't relevant as regards reps, it only affects the discount.
The PCN does not say that unsuccessful reps made no later than the 14-day period would secure the discount for a further 14 days.
Talking of reps, Hippocrates might care to consider weaving this into any appeal or reps:
(8)A penalty charge notice under this section must—
(a)state—
.....
(viii)that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to this Act;
IMO, this PCN does not and omits vital information. Instead, it invites the recipient to join up dots and reach a conclusion which is improper: it should be absolutely clear.
Schedule 1 to the Act:
Representations against penalty charge notice
1(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge notice has been served under section 4 (Penalty charges for road traffic contraventions) of this Act (in this Schedule referred to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make representations to that effect to the enforcing authority.
....
(3)The enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served.
(3) is not in the PCN. Instead they invite the recipient to join up these dots:
From the PCN:
.....
(v)that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable;
(vi)the amount of the increased charge;
Which means what?
That the recipient cannot make reps after the 28-day period as if issuing a CC draws a line under matters? If so, it is non-compliant.
A recipient MUST BE TOLD that they may make reps at any time, but that if made after the 28-day period these MAY be disregarded.
For regular posters, IMO this is a safety net equivalent to an OOT SD or late appeal to the adjudicator i.e reasons for lateness.
There might be 1000 reasons why reps are made late and which, when the reason is presented to the authority, obliges them, by virtue of their public law duty, to act fairly and consider. This doesn't bear upon the substance of reps, but simply the reasons for lateness.
This PCN doesn't convey this info...other than possibly to those steeped in road traffic law(or, in the case of this council, folklore) because it's what we know it's supposed to say and only join up dots leading to this end.
Hi
The 14 days are up today so I will put in a representation.
Would something to do with the signage be the way forward here, or is there anything else you might suggest?
Any help with wording would be appreciated
Thanks again
Please hold fire. Please screenshot the page with the grounds NOT allowed.
Hi
The 14 days are up today so I will put in a representation.
Would something to do with the signage be the way forward here, or is there anything else you might suggest?
Any help with wording would be appreciated
Thanks again
These school street signs should be hidden out of enforcement periods.
But I'm not sure this set-up has legs. The term time plates here are not regulatory I think and also it's obvious from the video that the school is in session.
The plate re term time is proscribed.
Also, please screenshot the pages you have to jump through to make a representation etc and get back. Do not make a representation yet please.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X_ea7Dwibaj2KJR2WhZdV3it0D7q9jt0/view
Finally, this lot are trigger happy so I would wat until the last minute within the statutory time to do so.
The plate re term time is proscribed.
Also, please screenshot the pages you have to jump through to make a representation etc and get back. Do not make a representation yet please.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X_ea7Dwibaj2KJR2WhZdV3it0D7q9jt0/view
Finally, this lot are trigger happy so I would wat until the last minute within the statutory time to do so.
Signage looks clear and you approached head on.
Would need to be a technical issue say with PCN to challenge this.
(https://imgur.kageurufu.net/cWK2Asn.gif)