Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: surkhab on November 21, 2024, 08:55:33 pm
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So after your last post on 26th January, you appealed to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal and won your case, so well done !
As they didn't re-offer the discount in their NoR, it was then a total no-brainer to appeal to the TPT.
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Hello everyone,
I am happy to let you know that they have accepted the appeal and I will not be charged ;D
Thank you all for the help.
https://i.imgur.com/Bd1XZJp.jpeg (https://i.imgur.com/Bd1XZJp.jpeg)
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You now submit your representations again, but please post up your draft here so we can review it and maybe add in a few suggested things. When/If they reject these reps, you can register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, which costs nothing extra.
Hi,
They have rejected it and made the following claim (https://i.imgur.com/qynDIxL.jpg?quality=lossless).
Shall I still make an appeal to Traffic Penalty Tribunal or is this a valid rejection?
And can someone please explain what happens if this appeal is also rejected/fails?
They state the double yellow lines but if you look at the images (at the start of this thread), I am not even parked on them? (Albeit, I should've parked more inwards). I'm not sure.
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Go ahead !
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Sorry for the late reply. Been busy with University exams.
As for the draft, can I use this one made by yourself ('Incandescent'):
"Dear Sirs
PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at Kincardine Road
I deny responsibility for the penalty charge demanded on the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur. The contravention stated on the PCN is only valid when the vehicle allegedly in contravention is actually parked on the carriageway. As your own photographs show, my vehicle was not parked on the carriageway.
The PCN is therefore invalid and I request its immediate cancellation
Yours faithfully"
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You now submit your representations again, but please post up your draft here so we can review it and maybe add in a few suggested things. When/If they reject these reps, you can register an appeal at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, which costs nothing extra.
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😬😬
So do I just wait for a letter to be posted to me now then?
Yes, as it says in "choices" on their letter rejecting your reps, or you can cough-up the £35. The Notice to Owner allows you to submit an formal representation against the PCN. These are normally looked at more carefully than informal challenges, where they reject almost 100% on the basis that most people then just cough-up. Yes, they game the system ruthlessly to make sure the money keeps rolling in.
Good evening,
I've just received my NTO (https://postimg.cc/PLHbPF2k). What is the next step I should carry out?
p.s. if you require all pages of the NTO to be uploaded, please let me know.
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Other than where specifically permitted, cars should park on the carriageway or other off-street area. You were parked obstructing the footway to the detriment of pedestrians.
Had the carriageway been marked with yellow line waiting restrictions then you could have been penalised for waiting because these restrictions apply to the footway. In London parking on the footway has been prohibited since 1974.
But you weren't in London and there weren't yellow lines.
The contravention given in your PCN did not occur for the reasons I gave. But this doesn't make the parking acceptable, just not capable of being penalised by a council.
Ahhh ok, thanks for the insight.
I just assumed it was ok to park there as I see cars parked there daily and I've never seen someone with a ticket there.
It's next to my university so I walk past that place quite often.
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Other than where specifically permitted, cars should park on the carriageway or other off-street area. You were parked obstructing the footway to the detriment of pedestrians.
Had the carriageway been marked with yellow line waiting restrictions then you could have been penalised for waiting because these restrictions apply to the footway. In London parking on the footway has been prohibited since 1974.
But you weren't in London and there weren't yellow lines.
The contravention given in your PCN did not occur for the reasons I gave. But this doesn't make the parking acceptable, just not capable of being penalised by a council.
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Not paying when I'm not in the wrong.
?? Not for the cited contravention perhaps, but parking on the footway .....!
Anyway, putting this to one side:
The prohibition is statutory(see link below to the Traffic Management Act)hence why signs are not required: holders of driving licences are expected to know.
85Prohibition of double parking etc.
(1)In a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway in such a way that no part of the vehicle is within 50 centimetres of the edge of the carriageway.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/85
Are you the keeper and are your DVLA details current?
Oh. So I was in the wrong?
I still don't get it so I would appreciate it if you could give me another example or something. Of course you don't have to waste your time.
Yes, I am the keeper and my details are current :)
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Not paying when I'm not in the wrong.
?? Not for the cited contravention perhaps, but parking on the footway .....!
Anyway, putting this to one side:
The prohibition is statutory(see link below to the Traffic Management Act)hence why signs are not required: holders of driving licences are expected to know.
85Prohibition of double parking etc.
(1)In a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway in such a way that no part of the vehicle is within 50 centimetres of the edge of the carriageway.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/85
Are you the keeper and are your DVLA details current?
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😬😬
So do I just wait for a letter to be posted to me now then?
Yes, as it says in "choices" on their letter rejecting your reps, or you can cough-up the £35. The Notice to Owner allows you to submit an formal representation against the PCN. These are normally looked at more carefully than informal challenges, where they reject almost 100% on the basis that most people then just cough-up. Yes, they game the system ruthlessly to make sure the money keeps rolling in.
Damn. Guess I'll wait then. Not paying when I'm not in the wrong.
Thanks for all the advice btw, really.
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😬😬
So do I just wait for a letter to be posted to me now then?
Yes, as it says in "choices" on their letter rejecting your reps, or you can cough-up the £35. The Notice to Owner allows you to submit an formal representation against the PCN. These are normally looked at more carefully than informal challenges, where they reject almost 100% on the basis that most people then just cough-up. Yes, they game the system ruthlessly to make sure the money keeps rolling in.
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The usual Fob-Off re-offering the discount.
Next stage is they serve a Notice to Owner, when you have to submit representations again, mostly the same as your initial challenge, but updated following input from this forum. Reps against NtOs are normally looked at more carefully at the council office, because they know it is no-brainer for you to take them to adjudication if they refuse them. Going to adjudication means they must prepare an evidence pack and also pay a fee for the adjudication, so even if they refuse your reps they often re-offer the discount.
It's a game and they game it ruthlessly.
😬😬
So do I just wait for a letter to be posted to me now then?
Side note:
what does "return to this topic" mean, next to "notify me of replies".
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Hello everybody,
Turns out I had gotten a reply from them like 12 days ago and I'm not sure how I missed it - when I check my emails daily :-\ .
This is what they said - here (https://postimg.cc/67DzFG16)
I'm not sure if me being late "hurts" me anyhow.
FYI, I have not received any letters in post from them.
Please explain what you mean by the above?
The link in your opening post includes a rejection letter dated the 21st of November. Looks like you submitted an informal representation against the PCN issued on the 11th November on the same day, and the Council rejected, as per the 21st Nov letter.
The next stage will be Notice to Owner (NTO) so is the name and address for the Registered Keeper (RK) on the registration certificate (V5c) correct and current? Don't just assume it is, get it out and check.
Yes sure.
After the 1st rejection letter (21st Nov), I made another informal appeal as directed by 'Incandescent' and received a response on 29th Nov. However, I didn't realise I had gotten a reply from them (even though I check my emails daily). Hence, I am posting this now and not on the 29th.
Thanks for suggesting I check my V5. My name and current address is on it. (Its on the rejection letter too).
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Hello everybody,
Turns out I had gotten a reply from them like 12 days ago and I'm not sure how I missed it - when I check my emails daily :-\ .
This is what they said - here (https://postimg.cc/67DzFG16)
I'm not sure if me being late "hurts" me anyhow.
FYI, I have not received any letters in post from them.
Please explain what you mean by the above?
The link in your opening post includes a rejection letter dated the 21st of November. Looks like you submitted an informal representation against the PCN issued on the 11th November on the same day, and the Council rejected, as per the 21st Nov letter.
The next stage will be Notice to Owner (NTO) so is the name and address for the Registered Keeper (RK) on the registration certificate (V5c) correct and current? Don't just assume it is, get it out and check.
-
The usual Fob-Off re-offering the discount.
Next stage is they serve a Notice to Owner, when you have to submit representations again, mostly the same as your initial challenge, but updated following input from this forum. Reps against NtOs are normally looked at more carefully at the council office, because they know it is no-brainer for you to take them to adjudication if they refuse them. Going to adjudication means they must prepare an evidence pack and also pay a fee for the adjudication, so even if they refuse your reps they often re-offer the discount.
It's a game and they game it ruthlessly.
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Hello everybody,
Turns out I had gotten a reply from them like 12 days ago and I'm not sure how I missed it - when I check my emails daily :-\ .
This is what they said - here (https://postimg.cc/67DzFG16)
I'm not sure if me being late "hurts" me anyhow.
FYI, I have not received any letters in post from them.
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Brilliant, thank you so much! Can you please also tell me to whom do I send this email to?
What a great system.
🙄
And yes I sure will :)
You should be able to enter the text to their representations page on their website, or send it via an email address on the PCN. Always keep the response to the input.
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Brilliant, thank you so much! Can you please also tell me to whom do I send this email to?
What a great system.
🙄
And yes I sure will :)
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Try this: -
Dear Sirs
PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at Kincardine Road
I deny responsibility for the penalty charge demanded on the above PCN on the grounds that the contravention did not occur. The contravention stated on the PCN is only valid when the vehicle allegedly in contravention is actually parked on the carriageway. As your own photographs show, my vehicle was not parked on the carriageway.
The PCN is therefore invalid and I request its immediate cancellation
Yours faithfully
They will inevitably just send you the usual Fob-Off letter. Please post it here when you get it.
Be aware that virtually all staff in council traffic and parking enforcement offices have no knowledge of the law at all and just send out whatever the computer tells them to. In addition, councils know that if they send out Fob-Off letters refusing every representation received, then most people, (like 98%), just cough-up.
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Ahh ok, thanks for the explanation!
"ugly brick building" lol.
Yeah that was what I was confused about, I wasn't even on the carriageway so how can I be 50cm from it's edge.
Can you (or anybody) please give me further advice on what to do then.
Thank you.
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No signs are needed for cars parked more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway, so that is what they mean by "signage"
HOwever, it is clear the contravention as described on the PCN did not occur, because the vehicle has to be on the carriagway in order to be 50cm away from its edge. Your car is off the carriageway being on a vehicle crossing giving access to parking there and on the other side of the ugly brick building! Therefore the contravention did not occur.
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Yes sorry here (https://maps.app.goo.gl/agFcXgprTUAZjYvK9?g_st=ac) it is.
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May we see a GSV link to the location, please
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Hello everybody. I received a PCN which doesn't make sense to me. I appealed but of course got rejected. Can you guys take a look and tell me if I'm in the wrong? I have attached everything necessary (I think).
The images (https://postimg.cc/gallery/k6mT7Py) (hopefully this works)
The exact location: 53.4708164, -2.2331194 GSV (https://maps.app.goo.gl/agFcXgprTUAZjYvK9?g_st=ac)
Sorry if I sound "obnoxious", this is my first time asking 'strangers' for help.
An FYI, in the rejection, it talks about "signage". I have no clue what that even means, so there's no way I could've asked about it.