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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Fatcockney on November 20, 2024, 09:30:59 pm

Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on February 14, 2025, 11:13:40 pm
Letter arrived today. For reference it was Deputy District Judge Livesley who provided such a superb verdict. It just confirms two statements.
1. The judgement is hereby set aside.
2. The claim be dismissed asd the defendant produced evidence of payment.

The rest was about costs which are due to be paid on Monday.

I suspect I won't be getting that as adjudged.

Regards
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on February 03, 2025, 10:48:16 pm
I'm afraid I didn't catch the judges name, but no doubt it will be on the formal decision when it arrives. I'll post it then. The case was heard in Chelmsford County Court. ECP was not represented at all, which I think really cheesed the judge off from the start. He was not very amused at all once he saw the parking evidence.

Thanks again for your support
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on February 03, 2025, 10:33:07 pm
Thank you for that report. Can you tell who the judge was and which court. Was there no one there to represent ECP or did hey send a local rent-a-legal? If so, did they try and request leave to appeal?

It is good to know that more and more judges are catching on to the systematic abuse by these rogue parking companies.

Great news that you had your costs awarded.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: DWMB2 on February 03, 2025, 07:18:22 pm
About as good a result as you could have hoped for, great stuff, and good to see a judge with little time for Euro Car Parks' nonsense.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on February 03, 2025, 06:37:21 pm
Afternoon all. Today was our Set-Aside court hearing. My dad offered to speak on my behalf but the usher refused. They also refused to accept The Payment Schedule for costs. Never mind.

Into the court, and the judge let my dad and a Citizens Advice volunteer sit with us. Euro Car Parks were NOT represented at all. The judge looked through our set aside application and said he had everything except our evidence of payment (he did) so asked if we had a copy. We did and supplied it to him. At this point things went badly for Euro Parks!

He berated them for not turning up, then stated he'd seen a host of these in the last five years that should never have made it there. Not only did he agree the set aside, but he also dismissed the case entirely. He asked about the payment schedule. So we told him about the fee for the set aside, the loss of earnings and travel expenses. He then said he was ordering Euro Parks to pay £428 by 17 February and to issue an apology. He apologised that they had wasted our time and thanked us for attending and providing the evidence he needed. He concluded by wishing me and my dad a very good day. I think we can call that victory.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and guidance on the way. I'm very happy.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on January 30, 2025, 11:28:54 am
You must get the claimants name/details correct. They are "Euro Car Parks Ltd"... NOT "Euro Parks".

Make sure you give the costs schedule to the judge when you go in to the hearing.

Let us know how it goes and please provide a report on it with detail such as who, if anyone showed up to represent the claimant. Who the judge is. How the hearing progressed and of course the outcome.

There was an appeal case that was won, just a few days ago (28th January) which would have a persuasive reason for the judge to strike out the original claim but, unfortunately, I don't yet have the transcript. It was before Her Honour Judge Brownhill at Winchester County Court. It was over a dispute that arose when Euro Parking Services Ltd issued a £100 parking charge at The Climbing Academy on March 18, 2023. The vehicle was present for only 19 minutes, and the £1.40 parking fee was paid shortly after leaving the site. The case progressed to Swindon County Court, where District Judge Hatvani initially found in favour of the parking operator.

Permission to appeal was granted by HHJ Brownhill on December 6, 2023, on three grounds, with a stay of execution ordered pending the appeal hearing. The judge found real prospects of success on grounds 1, 2, and 4. The most important ones with regard to your case are grounds #1 and #2,

Ground 1: No Loss Suffered

The appeal successfully argued that the District Judge erred in finding that the operator had suffered a loss. This ground is particularly significant as it clarifies that parking operators must demonstrate actual loss, especially in cases where:

- The parking fee was paid
- The vehicle remained within the permitted time limit

Ground 2: Ambiguous Terms

The court accepted that the terms relied upon by Euro Parking Services were ambiguous and had not been properly pleaded in their statement of case. This ground reinforces the requirement for parking operators to:

- Clearly specify terms in their statement of case
- Ensure terms are unambiguous
- Present clear evidence of contractual formation

Whilst you did not receive the statement from case (the claim form), but now having received a copy of it from there claimants solicitor, it is evident that the claim has not been properly pleaded and fails to comply with CPR 16.4.

unfortunately, I don't even have a case number to reference but depending on how confident you are in speaking up for yourself at the hearing, you could mention this case simply referencing the appeal judge, location and date and to ask for the original claim to be struck out and costs awarded to you.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on January 30, 2025, 08:53:39 am
OK, so yesterday I received my date for the court hearing at Chelmsford, which is next Monday 3rd February at 2.10pm. I have written a note for my defence to read out in court. Would appreciate any views. I will also print and take evidence of parking and other salient bits and pieces incase needed.

Would also appreciate any information about how this session is likely to go please.

Thanks in advance.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 05, 2024, 12:16:37 pm
Thanks very much for this. I will now prepare my letter/ defence argument which if you don't mind I shall share?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 05, 2024, 12:10:15 pm
DCBL are instructed by their sister company, DCB Legal to try and recover the money, which is why they have the reference number in their correspondence.

You are not obliged to disclose your evidence at this stage simply because the claimant has requested it. Your obligation to disclose evidence depends on the procedural stage of the case and any directions issued by the court.

At this stage, the hearing is specifically to determine whether the default judgment should be set aside. The focus is typically on whether you have a real prospect of successfully defending the claim and whether there is a good reason you did not respond to the claim (obviously, you never received the claim form).

You are only required to provide sufficient evidence to support your application to set aside (e.g., a witness statement explaining non-receipt of the claim form, or reasons the claim might be defended successfully).

Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) do not require you to share all evidence with the claimant at this stage unless explicitly directed by the court. You can choose to withhold detailed evidence of parking payment until later stages of the proceedings, such as during the defence preparation after the judgment is set aside.

Ensure all evidence relevant to the set-aside application (e.g., proof of non-receipt of the claim form, and any preliminary defence points like evidence of payment) is submitted to the court in advance of the hearing or as per the court’s instructions. Decline to share evidence with the claimant now, citing the fact that the application for set aside has not yet been decided, and that disclosure of evidence will follow proper court procedure if the default judgment is set aside.

You might consider sending the following response to DCB Legal:

Quote
Dear DCB Legal,

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding my application to set aside the default judgment.

At this stage, the matter before the court relates solely to the set-aside application. As such, I am not required to disclose evidence prior to the hearing unless explicitly directed by the court. I will, however, ensure that the court is provided with all relevant information to support my application.

Should the court grant the set-aside application, I will respond to the claim in full compliance with the Civil Procedure Rules, including disclosing any evidence required at that stage.

Yours faithfully,


[Defendant]

If the set-aside application is granted and the claimant eventually discontinues the case, you may be able to claim costs incurred in defending the matter. At the set-aside hearing, request a costs order against the claimant for the N244 application fee and any reasonable expenses (e.g., loss of earnings for attending the hearing, printing costs).

If the case proceeds but the claimant discontinues (you can bet that they will want to once it is defended), you can apply for costs under CPR 38.6, which allows for costs to be awarded against a claimant who discontinues.

Should the default judgment be set aside, you should prepare a strong defence (we can assist). Include evidence of having paid for parking. Any procedural irregularities in the claimant’s handling of the case (the PoC in the claim fail to comply with CPR 16.4). Highlight the claimant’s known history of discontinuing frivolous claims. Use legal arguments such as abuse of process (e.g., if their claim includes excessive charges or if they are deliberately issuing claims where they know the defendant might not respond).

As the claimant’s solicitor is part of a known bulk litigation practice, you should consider bringing this to the court’s attention. Provide evidence of the claimant’s history of discontinuing cases or issuing speculative claims to pressure settlements. This would strengthen your argument that the case lacks merit and that the claimant’s approach is exploitative.

If the claim itself is deemed frivolous or spurious (as you can demonstrate with your evidence of payment), the court may decide that the claimant should bear the costs of your N244 application. Even if the claim form was correctly addressed, the court should consider whether the claimant acted reasonably by obtaining the default judgment without verifying the defendant’s position, especially given the long history of correspondence.

The court may view that you had to incur costs unnecessarily because the claim was not substantiated or was speculative in nature.

You should clearly show that you did not receive the claim form (despite it being correctly addressed). You would have responded if you had received it (supported by your consistent engagement with prior correspondence).

The claim itself lacks merit, as demonstrated by your evidence of payment for the parking. At the hearing, you can request that the court orders the claimant to reimburse the cost of the N244 application and other reasonable expenses (e.g., loss of earnings for attending the hearing, postage, or printing costs).

Costs are awarded at the court’s discretion, based on the reasonableness of the claimant’s and defendant’s actions. Your argument is stronger if you can demonstrate the claim was unwarranted or lacked merit. You acted reasonably and promptly in applying for the set-aside. The claimant acted opportunistically by pursuing the default judgment without ensuring the claim was necessary.

If the set-aside is granted and the claimant subsequently discontinues the claim, you can then seek costs under CPR 38.6, which states that the claimant is liable for costs unless the court orders otherwise.

So, while the claimant may not have erred in addressing the claim form, you can still argue that the claim itself was frivolous and caused unnecessary costs. The court will decide based on the overall reasonableness of the parties' actions, so presenting strong evidence and making a clear request at the set-aside hearing is essential.

Here is a suggested costs application. You can give it to the judge on the day (prepare a copy for the claimant too) or you can send it to the court a few days before the hearing (again, copying in the claimant).

Quote
IN THE COUNTY COURT
Claim No: [Claim Number]

BETWEEN:

Euro Car Parks Ltd.


Claimant

- and -

[Defendant's Full Name]


Defendant



COSTS SCHEDULE

Hearing Date: [Insert Date]
Prepared By: [Defendant’s Name]

Defendant's Costs of Application to Set Aside Default Judgment

1. N244 Application Fee

Amount: £303.00

The court fee paid for filing the application to set aside the default judgment.

2. Loss of Earnings for Attending Court

Amount: £[Insert Amount, max £95 under CPR 45.2(1)(d)]

Reimbursement for loss of earnings or leave taken to attend the hearing. [Optional: Attach supporting evidence, e.g., payslip or employer’s letter.]

3. Travel Expenses

Amount: £[Insert Amount]

Cost of traveling to and from the court. [Optional: Include details of mode of travel and mileage, if applicable.]

4. Postage and Printing Costs

Amount: £[Insert Amount]

Expenses incurred for correspondence and preparation of the application.

Total Amount Claimed: £[Insert Total]



Grounds for Claiming Costs

• The default judgment was obtained despite the defendant not receiving the claim form, which is the basis for this set-aside application.

• The defendant has evidence to show that the claim itself lacks merit, as payment was made for parking, rendering the claim unnecessary and spurious.

• The claimant, along with their bulk litigation solicitor, is known for discontinuing claims that are defended, suggesting this matter would likely not proceed if the judgment is set aside.

•The claimant’s approach has caused the defendant to incur unnecessary costs, including the N244 application fee and related expenses, in addressing a frivolous and avoidable claim.

Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this schedule are true and that the costs claimed have been reasonably incurred.

Signed: [Defendant’s Name]

Date: [Insert Date]
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 05, 2024, 11:08:11 am
Ok so I just checked. The letter on 20 November was from DCB Legal. They asked for my parking evidence. I did reply only to see if they had a copy of the N1SDT. They did and supplied it. I have not provided parking evidence to them.

On the same date (but posted) but only received  this week was a letter from Debt Collection Bailiff's (bit naughty to use DCBL Reference Number in the letter). It is titled DEBT RECOVERY REMINDER (Unpaid County Court Judgement). I have not responded to this at all.

Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 05, 2024, 10:40:58 am
Direct Collection Bailiff Ltd (DCBL) are simply a debt collector. Ignore them. They have nothing to do with this. It is DCB Legal that you need to tell us about, if they try and contact you. Please make sure you differentiate between DCBL and DCB Legal.

So, have DCB Legal been in touch or not?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 04, 2024, 10:32:19 pm
Finally, the last two letters from DCBL in the last week have been to ask for my parking evidence and to chase the debt again. Given that I have paid for my N244 and this is now being dealt with by the court, should I engage with them?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 04, 2024, 10:30:12 pm
Been at work so I'll answer the many replies (thanks) in order.

B789 at 9.06 - Correct. The N1SDT did/has not arrived in the post. I got it yesterday from DCBL by email. Having posted the response online, I received nothing in return from DCBL. All I've had since is the Judgment in Default and a couple of debt chases from DCBL including yesterday. My advice on the Letter of Claim response I got online from someone with a similar case.

B789 at 9.17 - yes I did receive the default judgment from CNBC. I have posted that already along with my N244 response.

B789 at 10.35 - Thank you. That sounds positive. I will be prepared for my hearing.

HC Anderson at 12.46 - Yes I expect my hearing to be in person. I have posted the letter saying it will be dealt with by the local court. I have kept every email and letter both sent and received since day 1. Including the original appeal rejection. I will have that all to hand on the day.

Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 04, 2024, 05:33:07 pm
...and the Overriding Objective.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: H C Andersen on December 04, 2024, 12:46:41 pm
Is your hearing in person?

As I posted previously, you have evidence that at every formal and (more often) informal stage of correspondence between you and the creditor you have replied promptly and in full setting out what you believed was a solid defence against their claim. You are where you are solely because you did not acknowledge service of a claim form from CNBC for the reason that this was not received. You cannot prove a negative, but would ask the judge to accept that given your prior history of engagement on this issue and your stated intention to defend yourself that the balance of probability should be cast in your favour and that the default judgment should be set aside. 
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 04, 2024, 10:35:02 am
FYI, I have discussed your case with a judge today and they reckon that what you have put in your N244 application should be sufficient. You don’t need a second witness statement or a draft order. The claimant never turns up to this sort of thing and only rarely files evidence. I would be amazed if judgement was not set aside.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 04, 2024, 09:17:54 am
One further question... did you not receive a letter from the CNBC with the default judgment?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 04, 2024, 09:06:03 am
OK. So you did receive the LoC from DCB Legal. You are saying that you never received the N1SDT Claim Form that is sent from the CNBC.

As you have evidence of having responded to everything else and as the CNBC will not be able to show "prof of posting", there is a possibility that it was not delivered. Whilst the claimant has not done anything wrong because they used your correct address, you may not get your application fee back.

The main thing is to get your CCJ set aside.

You say you used the response webform on the DCB Legal website to respond to the LoC. You have a copy of what you put in that response. Did you receive any response to your request for further information/documents?

What correspondence or emails did you receive from anyone after submitting the response/request to DCB Legal on 17th July?

Where have you been getting your advice from up to now?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 04, 2024, 08:09:17 am
Sorry. With attachment

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 04, 2024, 08:03:08 am
Ok. Been looking back through all my documentation again. Please understand that this is now over three years and over 30 interactions by letter or email. I hadn't quite understood the difference between the Claim Letter and Letter of Claim until I read back.

I DID receive the Letter of Claim on 26 June in the post. I did reply to that using the online form referred to in that letter. I did so on 17 July. I did not pay, but in the form (which I can't access now) I provided this response.

"You have now sent a Letter Before Claim. However, your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and, again, fails to provide the photographic evidence which I requested as long ago as November 2021. It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.

This action on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct, with which as solicitors you must surely be familiar (and with which your client, a serial litigator of small claims, must also be familiar). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction binds all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time.
I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. an explanation of the cause of action

2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper

3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012

4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)

5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim

6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver

7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed

8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)

9. a map of the boundary of the property

10. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) – Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16. I will draw to the court the fact that I have expressly requested this information since as early as Nov 2021 yet your client has refused to provide it, saying that it will not do so until this matter reaches the court.

Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided"

Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 03, 2024, 09:16:13 pm
I can't honestly say. Why would I not respond, having responded to the original PNC and then 30 other times as well as a SAR. If I'd received them, I'd have replied. I've just paid £308 for an N244 to go to court. I could have just paid the debt and not gone. Reason being I think they are wrong. Yes I might lose but this isn't right. Even now having gone to where they are, they are still asking me to provide parking evidence and hounding me with debt recovery threats. It's relentless. I'm sure they are a big organisation with loads of cash, but I don't want to lay down.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 03, 2024, 08:34:02 pm
I don't think anyone's saying you can't dispute it. The problem is that you didn't dispute (defend) it in the ultimate discourse resolution service, the small claims track of the county court.

The problem is going be in getting the CCJ set aside. You have no argument other than use CPR 13.2 for a compulsory set aside. You can only rely on CPR 13.3 for a discretionary sent aside and the judge is going to want to know why you did not respond to both a PAP LoC and an N1SDT Claim Form sent through the CNCB.

As already advised, simply stating that you never received these two documents, which were issued by post, by two completely separate and independent organisations, is going to raise eyebrows. Whilst responding to the LoC is not an absolute requirement, responding to the N1SDT is.

Considering you don't deny receiving previous correspondence from the claimant, how are you able to convince the judge that, on the balance of probability, not receiving two separate legal documents sent independently by separate organisations, were not received?

You can state that whilst you cannot prove having received them, neither of those two organisations can prove posting or delivery of them, unless they evidence either a "proof of posting certificate" or a signature on delivery certificate. At least that argument may balance any probability decision.

If the judge can be convinced that if the neither the CNBC nor DCB Legal can prove the letters were posted or signed for and your claim that you did not receive either, then there is reason for them to set aside the CCJ under CPR 13.3. You then have to show that you have a reasonable chance of successfully defending the original claim.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 03, 2024, 07:32:03 pm
ANPR entry at 11.26 paid at 11.31. I can't pay while driving. Extended at 12.31 for two hours. Surely to god I can't be penalised for 5 ?mins while I park? Has to be the 7 mins at the end?? No?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: DWMB2 on December 03, 2024, 07:25:48 pm
Quote
In carpark at 11.26
Paid one hour 11.31
Extended 2 hours 12.31
Exited carpark 14.38

That's 7 mins over.
At the moment the focus is on the set aside, but, so that we don't forget about it...

The car was in the car park for 3 hours 12 minutes, and 3 hours parking was paid for. It's an overstay of 12 minutes that is being claimed, not 7. A small difference, but 12 minutes is outside the minimum grace period of 10 mins.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 03, 2024, 06:55:58 pm
To confirm, I never received The Letter of Claim OR The Claim Form in the post. The document I posted yesterday is the first time I've seen one of them. I've never seen the other.

This afternoon, received another chase for payment of debt from DCBL Legal. We already know this will be handled by the court when they determine a date.

I still have the evidence of the parking tickets themselves, which were attached to the N244 when I responded to the Judgement. I never intended NOT to pay for parking. I did pay. I have tried to engage Euro Parks and DCB over 30 times. Not sure why those two documents were never delivered, but they weren't. I will stand behind this all in court because I have no option. They are totally dismissive of anything I send. I just have to hope that a judge will see reason on the day. I have kept everything that has been sent and responded in over three years. Shows they are determined to chase small debt down.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 03, 2024, 06:04:36 pm
I'll ask my judge tomorrow what their opinion is.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: DWMB2 on December 03, 2024, 06:02:06 pm
Quote
Anyone else think that this may be a bit of an uphill struggle?
Potentially - 'judge bingo' might need to play a part. I can certainly see why a judge might take some convincing that whilst all prior correspondence was received, both the Letter of Claim and Claim Form did not arrive.

Quote
I hope that the court can be persuaded to set aside anyway, in the interest of the Overriding Objective
Hopefully.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 03, 2024, 05:33:08 pm
So, just to confirm... you never received a Letter of Claim from the claimant issued through DCB Legal and you also never received an N1SDT Claim Form issued by DCB Legal through the Civil National Business Centre (CNBC)?

Anyone else think that this may be a bit of an uphill struggle? I hope that the court can be persuaded to set aside anyway, in the interest of the Overriding Objective. A Skeleton Argument citing VCS v Carr which is due to be heard as a second appeal may be worthwhile, just in case anyone is not familiar with this:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ob8hw1062bdaiw8ine4u8/VCS-v-Carr.pdf?rlkey=m33wuz8wjogdz13mbisu69ziy&st=8f2kfarl&dl=0
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 03, 2024, 03:13:08 pm
Yes and Yes
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 03, 2024, 02:54:08 pm
So, are you saying that you never received it? Are you saying that you never received a Letter of Claim (LoC) from the claimant through their solicitor, DCB Legal?

If the answer to both those questions is “yes” then you are going to have to convince the court that you did not receive two letters that were sent from separate entities. From one, maybe. However, on the balance of probabilities, that is unlikely.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 03, 2024, 12:24:24 pm
The address on the form is my address.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 03, 2024, 12:06:51 pm
Please answer the relevant questions which you seem either reluctant to do or are not paying attention! What address was the claim sent to? An old address where you no longer resided at the time or your current address?

All the other detail is irrelevant at this stage.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 03, 2024, 12:04:35 pm
So to summarise.

In carpark at 11.26
Paid one hour 11.31
Extended 2 hours 12.31
Exited carpark 14.38

That's 7 mins over. Is there not some sort of leeway in the UK on timings at all? Thought you had a few mins grace?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 03, 2024, 11:57:43 am
Finally got through to CNBC who gave no information other than to say it was posted first class (not recorded)on 28 August. I never received that.

However, DCBL were far more forthcoming and provided the attached along with a message that said "for the avoidance of doubt, it remains our client's position that the claim was served to your last known address pursuant to CPR 6.9 and as there was no response to the Claim Form Judgment in default was accepted".

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: H C Andersen on December 01, 2024, 09:37:42 pm
OP, no-one is doubting that you did not receive the claim, but what we think isn't germane, neither is repeating it here. Sorry, but this is about procedure.

You are going to court to convince a judge. You 'opponents' if any are ..the court, in the form of CNBC, and Royal Mail and the law which presumes service of a document properly addressed etc. etc.

We must be clear, is your application being heard on the papers or is it a personal hearing?

The overriding objective is fairness and you need to stress how unfair it would be to not be able to defend their claim given the strength of your case which you've summarised in your application....and if in person stress the sorry if not clear, you're a novice etc. etc. card! Also, that you've not avoided contact with the creditor as your exchange of correspondence going back ** years shows, including responding to their Letter of Claim..
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: DWMB2 on December 01, 2024, 08:55:04 pm
I've spent three hours on Thursday and Friday without getting a response from CNBC but I'll try again tomorrow
This is, sadly, not unusual, and a symptom of the over-burdened and under-resourced court system. There isn't anything we can do about the difficulty in reaching the CNBC, other than to tell you to keep trying.

My original post was simple to me but never answered.
The reason your original post was not answered directly was because it did not provide the requisite background information for us to be able to answer it properly. Once that information was provided, the focus then moved to providing advice that would yield you the best possible chance of a successful outcome.

This was probably done on the well-meaning assumption that most people who come here to seek advice do so hoping to secure a positive outcome, rather than simply wanting their specific question answering without consideration to their overall case.

We aren't your adversaries in this situation - we're the ones trying to get you a positive outcome.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 01, 2024, 08:51:53 pm
Of course it is not easy. We are trying to help but you entered this process and submitted the N244 before we were able to advise. What is done is done.

However, we are trying to assist you now but we are on the back foot until we know precisely what the PoC of the original claim were and which address was used for the claim, which you say you never received. Once we know the PoC and if an incorrect address was used, we can then put together a suitable Skeleton argument and even a Supplementary Witness Statement (SWS) that you can send to the court where the hearing is to take place so that your N244 application is up to strength and has all the necessary legal argument that is the only thing that the judge will consider.

We want you to beat this injustice but you really must help us to help you. Get on to the CNBC at 8:30 am in order to reduce the time you have to hold for them.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 01, 2024, 08:42:12 pm
I'll stop posting now but I'll make it clear for the last time. I did not receive a Letter of Claim. I was advised by this forum to contact CNBC which I am still trying to do. I'm trying my best and I'll go to court if I have to. I applied the N244 because it was my ONLY option at the time. It cost me £308 which I can't afford. But I can't afford a CCJ.

My original post was simple to me but never answered. My accusers asking me for evidence after they instigated court proceedings. Should I respond?

Never mind. Thanks
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: H C Andersen on December 01, 2024, 06:43:41 pm
They think they are right, I think they are wrong. It is what it is now. I just wanted advice.

Thanks for the advice given to date. It's not easy.

It is easy, you are making it difficult. Sorry, so pl just take a deep breath.

At present this matter is procedural, pure and simple.

A claim was issued by CNBC which you did not acknowledge, something which recipients must do within a time period specified in the form otherwise risk judgment being awarded against them in default on application of the claimant.

Simple process.

Your response is equally simple: apply to the court to have the judgment set aside because you did not receive the claim.

There is no THEY in this, the matter is between you and the court because THEY didn't send the claim to you, the court did!

Edit - remember, the judge in this court is not going to determine the rights and wrongs of your substantive defence against the claim, that's for another court. So 'Now the court have accepted that and said it will be handled by Chelmsford court.' is not correct as you think, IMO it will determine the procedural issue only.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 01, 2024, 06:30:05 pm
Ok. I've tried to be open with everything. You've actually begun to make me feel worse now. My initial question was pretty simple but you've all dug deep for the background which I've tried to provide.

I've spent three hours on Thursday and Friday without getting a response from CNBC but I'll try again tomorrow. To be explicitly clear I DID NOT RECEIVE A LETTER OF CLAIM.  Had a judgement notice and paid the money and responded because I think I have a valid defence. Now the court have accepted that and said it will be handled by Chelmsford court. Three years of debating this has led to this point. They think they are right, I think they are wrong. It is what it is now. I just wanted advice.

Thanks for the advice given to date. It's not easy.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on December 01, 2024, 05:59:58 pm
If we knew the answers to those questions, which have already been asked, you would have an opportunity to at least send the court a Skeleton Argument which would be very beneficial to you.

So, please go back through the thread and answer the questions. I suggest calling the CNBC first thing in the morning, around 8:30am to have the best chance of getting through.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: H C Andersen on December 01, 2024, 05:54:16 pm
OP, IMO at present you are confusing yourself and us by continually harking back to these very historical events.

In short, from your N244 application:
You received a Letter of Claim from DCBL dated who knows when, you haven't said;
You responded by email, what we don't know;
They contacted you again on 19 July 2024 with another extra-procedural demand to pay within 30 days or face court action;
You received notice of a (default) judgment for the claimant dated 23 Sept.


Other will comment but essentially as regards the court process you lengthy account boils down to:

a claim form was sent to you by CNBC - but we don't know when;
you did not respond (acknowledge service) and therefore;
the claimant applied to the court for a default judgment.

With respect, the Particulars of Claim etc. are not immediately germane(but hopefully this issue will have it's day in court), this is purely procedural(but being able to persuade the judge that you have a reasonable chance of defending your case is desirable/essential (I don't know the specifics).
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 01, 2024, 01:39:10 pm
Apologies. Honest mistake
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: FaeLLe on December 01, 2024, 01:22:19 pm
Spent three hours unanswered to CNBC on Thursday and Friday, butt this arrived in the post on Saturday. Going to court now. Will still chase CNBC because we need to know they followed process.

Please redact your name and claim number including reference numbers as best practice.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on December 01, 2024, 12:01:26 pm
Spent three hours unanswered to CNBC on Thursday and Friday, butt this arrived in the post on Saturday. Going to court now. Will still chase CNBC because we need to know they followed process.

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Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 05:05:07 pm
Noted. Will be on the phone to them in the morning.Thanks
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on November 27, 2024, 04:41:58 pm
You did not request the SAR from the claimant. DCB Legal may have been able to provide limited information. If you sent the SAR to DCBL or DRP, they definitely would not be able to provide any info. The SAR should have been sent to ECP.

DCB Legal won't have the N1SDT claim form. They initiated the claim through MCOL. they may be able to provide the details, so it may be worthwhile chasing them but I still suggest phoning the CNBC and waiting on the phone whilst they email your the PoC and they confirm the address it was allegedly posted to. I think they will actually charge you if you want an actual copy of the claim form and it is not necessary as we only need the PoC and confirmation of the address it was posted to.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 04:24:45 pm
To confirm. Two tickets in this thread. First purchased after the ANPR entry on the ticket at about11.30. Cost £1.50 for one hour. The second evidenced at 12.31 for two hours.Cost £3.00
I will reach out to CNBC.

As for the other comment about engaging DCBLegal. If you look at the pink form, sometime back I issued them with a SAR request and they basically said "we don't hold any information about you" which given they've written about 20 times is also untrue (hence it is on the form).

That's why I'm hesitant and querying further engagement. They are asking for parking evidence now, when they've ignored it for three years. Are they covering their backside before it gets to court?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: FaeLLe on November 27, 2024, 04:02:20 pm
Regarding the CNBC, you must get the information I have advised.

Alternatively, would it not be wise to engage DCB Legal and request for a copy of all information they hold about the case, including the Claim form and hearing notices, so the registered keeper could deal with the matter?

I guess this would achieve the same purpose since CNBC could result in a delay in getting him the documents. The dates should be easily obtainable through the phone I guess.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on November 27, 2024, 03:44:38 pm
No, do not engage with DCB Legal, at least for now.

Without having to trawl back through the thread, are you saying that the driver made two separate pay & display permit purchases? If so, please tell us the times of each purchase and what was the duration of the permit in each case.

If the overall overstay was recorded as under 10 minutes, then that is not an issue.

Regarding the CNBC, you must get the information I have advised.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 03:39:30 pm
Ok. I'm not misleading anyone or withholding information here. For a novice this isn't easy. But I don't think you see this as accurately as you have laid it out. Earlier I sent a picture of a £1.50 payment on a phone. That is the original payment. The app doesn't give an exact time as you see, but given that the ANPR gets you as you drive in and NOT when you park, I expect I'd have made that payment by 11.31 latest. The second document marked extension was paid at 12.31 for 2 hours. The ANPR then picks up the departure at 14.38. So effectively we might have outstayed our welcome by a maximum of 7 minutes. But it gives no leeway for getting in and getting out.

Do you still think that I have no chance in defending this. The PCN doesn't have a time of offence at all it just says "date of event".

Happy to contact CNBC now I have the details but I never had that form from anyone.

Question still stands though. Should I engage DCB before I get a response to my N244?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on November 27, 2024, 12:40:53 pm
So, the receipt shows that you paid for two hours of parking, over an hour after arriving. However, your vehicle is shown being on site for over 3 hours. The PCN was issued for "No valid pay & display was purchased".

The vehicle entered the car park at 11:26. The Pay and Display permit was purchased at 12:31, one hour and five minutes after entry and was valid for 2 hours until 14:31. The vehicle was recorded leaving the car park at 14:38, three hours and twelve minutes after entry.

I'm struggling to see how you can defend this. The driver obviously was aware that a Pay & Display permit was a requirement of the terms and conditions of parking. The driver purchased a permit for two hours of parking but remained at the car park for three hours and twelve minutes.

You did not tell us about this discrepancy. Simply claiming that the driver purchased a "ticket" does not explain why they didn't simply purchase extra time, knowing that they had exceeded the purchased time, irrespective of whether the pay & display permit was supposed to be purchased on arrival or could be purchased at any time before exit.

Regarding the PoC of the claim and whether it was addressed correctly, you must contact the Civil National Business Centre (CNBC) where the claim was issued and the default CCJ obtained. Their number is 0300 123 1056 and you will need the claim number for reference, which you can get from the correspondence about the CCJ
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fluffykins on November 27, 2024, 12:30:22 pm
CNBC
https://www.find-court-tribunal.service.gov.uk/courts/civil-national-business-centre-cnbc
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 11:49:25 am
Who are the CNBC please? Just googled them and I'm sure they aren't a news agency.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 11:43:06 am
For the remainder of your questions.
1. I do not have a reply or a hearing date yet.
2. When I filled out the N244 form, I could apply either a Witness Statement, Statement of Case, or Evidence in Box below. I chose the last and I appended that this morning in the pinkish form. Not sure what I could have done differently at that point tbh as that's the information I have. What would a Witness Statement or Skeleton Case have that this information doesn't?
3. I have already stated in that pink form that I was never provided with a Claim Form. It went from the "you must pay this" letter straight to Judgment letter. I had no chance to fill a claim.
4. I have not contacted the CNBC. I have no idea who they are or what they do, so has never been a consideration to date.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 11:32:25 am
No2

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Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 11:31:40 am
Ok, first here are the tickets I bought on the day.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on November 27, 2024, 10:03:09 am
OK. We are trying to help you here. First of all, please get out of your head that any "offence" was committed. An "offence" relates to a criminal matter. This is a "civil" matter.

Do you still have the recipe or evidence that you did pay for the parking at the time?

Do you have a hearing date yet? If not or it is at least two weeks away, you can still submit a Witness Statement and even a skeleton argument. This can be prepared once you answer all the questions raised.

You have still not provided answers to all the other questions we have asked.

We asked you to give a possible explanation why you think you did not receive the N1SDT claim form. You state that you received a Letter of Claim (LoC) from DCB Legal (not the same as DCBL). Did you receive the LoC by post or was it as an attachment to an email?

Have you contacted the CNBC to find out if the N1SDT claim form was sent to the correct address? Also, whilst on the phone to the CNBC ask them to email to you the Particulars of Claim (PoC). Wait on the phone until you receive the email.

You can be waiting for a long time on the phone to the CNBC and I suggest you make the call at 8:30am to reduce the chance of a very long wait. However, you MUST get this information. Address of the defendant and the PoC.

When you have these answers, come back and tell us whether the claim was sent to the correct address and post the PoC here.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 08:26:55 am
And finally

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Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 08:25:51 am
Apologies. It didn't't attach all three dice in last post

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 27, 2024, 08:22:27 am
Ok. Apologies for the delay but have been away since Friday. I now attach a copy of the PCN from Euro Parks. This gives details of the offence.

Additional to this I have added the second part of my N244 which briefly outlines the route of getting to the N244. Please understand that this has been going on since October 2021 so there is dozens and dozens of interactions.

Finally, I have added the latest email from DCB. Herein lies my query.

Why are they now asking for evidence of my parking ticket three years on, having already made a Claim for Judgement to which I've responded?

Given it's cost me £308 to challenge this via the N244, should I even be providing that information at this stage when they have ignored that so often?

I should add that evidence referenced to in the N244 statement were all attached to that response.

I'm afraid other than what I've given you, I'm not sure how much more I can provide. I certainly don't understand the last couple of points about defence in the previous post. Thank you for helping me. I'm not a car guru. I'm a single working mother who feels she isn't being heard and needs support.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: b789 on November 22, 2024, 11:17:02 am
Unless we know the original details of the claim made against you and your subsequent application for a set aside, you are not helping yourself or us.

We need to see the Particulars of Claim (PoC) of the original claim. We need to know why you did not respond to that claim or, if you did, why was a CCJ given? How and when did you find out about the CCJ? What did you put in your N244 application. Did you include a Witness Statement (WS)? What did you put in your WS? Did you include a draft order with your N244 application? If so, what did you put in that draft order?

Under which Civil Procedure Rule (CPR) are you attempting to get the CCJ set aside? CPR13.2 and/or CPR 13.3?
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 22, 2024, 10:11:10 am
Not sure what else is outstanding? I have posted the relevant documents now I hope.

Away for four days now.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 22, 2024, 10:09:27 am
Euro Parks Meadow Surface car park is the one.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: John U.K. on November 22, 2024, 09:50:24 am
I have been asked to move this to Private Parking Tickets, and I suspect you have parked in one of these cvar parks
https://www.chelmsford.gov.uk/parking-and-travel/car-parks/meadows-surface-car-park/

which must be a very confusing situation for motorists.

Please identify and name which car park in Chelmsford which you used, and answer the questions and comments in posts Replies #1 and #3
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: H C Andersen on November 21, 2024, 11:24:10 am
OP, some hard facts because I suspect that time is not on your side.

Pl do not seek to limit your thread to questions which you think are important or which have relevance. You've got free access to knowledge and experience here so I suggest you let us take the lead.

But without docs we're blind.

Penalties issued by councils under the TMA don't have a 'day in court'. It's a decriminalised process. Whereas parking charges issued by private car park operators under the law of contract and possibly relying upon the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 would be determined in court, similarly for the dwindling number of councils which have not taken on DPE powers and still operate under the RTA.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 21, 2024, 09:28:16 am
It was originally a Council Car Park ticket managed by Euro Parks with Debt Chased by DCB.

I will post the chase email later when back from work but my query is really "should I really be chased by them for evidence of parking, after they instigated County Judgement against me, and I've submitted a N244 form in response?"

I've read all the N244 guidance and there's nothing on that. My issue is that, if I respond am I impacting my potential court hearing, which I never got in the first place. They just instigated the CCJ proceedings.
Title: Re: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Enceladus on November 20, 2024, 11:37:14 pm
Please have a look at the READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) at the top of the forum.

Please post up a copy or photo of the DCB demand that you referred to. Just redact your name and address.
Right now it's unclear whether this concerns a Council Penalty Charge Notice, a Council Excess Charge Notice or a private Parking Charge Notice.
Title: Debt Collector chase after N244
Post by: Fatcockney on November 20, 2024, 09:30:59 pm
Hi. Background is: Parking ticket in Chelmsford Council Car Park. Have a valid ticket but Euro Parks and DCB ignored and eventually filed a notice against me.

Never had my day in court so filled an N244 and paid a fee for a hearing along with all evidence and correspondence last month. No hearing date yet.

Now DCB are asking me for evidence of the valid ticket. Do I respond to them or point them to the fact that this is now with the court?

I just feel that they are taking the Mick after what they've done to date. Appreciate guidance. Cheers