Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Tretonik on November 19, 2024, 10:22:40 pm
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OK... so here is what you do... on Monday 16th December, you appeal as the Keeper of the vehicle with the following:
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.
As your Notice to Driver (NtD) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. APCOA has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.
The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtD can only hold the driver liable. APCOA have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
The point is to tie them up in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper (NtK). Many PPCs in the BPA omit any NtK when replying to an appeal and the very fact a PPC forgets to send you a NtK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA. Having appealed as late as possible after a windscreen PCN, make sure you take note of whether any postal NtK is ever received in the following weeks. A rejection letter with POPLA code is not a NtK.
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What does this sign say?
[img width=152.6666717529297 height=459]https://i.imgur.com/1RDfxKJ.png[/img]
It's this and it refers to a bunch of labelled bays in that row.
(https://i.imgur.com/Eqh7XW9.jpeg)
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What does this sign say?
(https://i.imgur.com/1RDfxKJ.png)
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So got a wide view of the entrance
(https://i.imgur.com/xnAqIYJ.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WU2pzf1.jpeg)
And photos of the sign (the car park is the exit directly across from the roundabout). It's not really legible from a car since its mounted too high up and by the time you get close enough to read the roof will be in your way and you're going to be paying attention to the roundabout anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/Xr5bXTE.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/brZOYGz.jpeg)
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as DWMB2 said .... wider angle shots. to put it plainly.. a pic from furthercawsy to show the entire entrance donit can be seen there are no signs anywhere at the entrance
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It might be sensible to get some photos of those, both close up and wider showing their poor prominence. Just to head off any attempt by APCOA to present them as prominent signs the driver ought to have seen.
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Thanks, that is much clearer and those will be easy enough to arrange. It was unclear if there is some specific type of photo that is required as someone had mentioned shots of the entrance.
On the way in today I noticed that there are some APCOA signs up, but these are sited at the entrance to the actual campus (which is about half a mile across) and along some of the internal roads. These are also in small font so unreadable from a vehicle. These look like the "usual" private parking t&c signs Should I try to photograph these as well or will they not be relevant given they're located >100m and across a big roundabout from the actual car park entrance?
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I’m not sure why this request is becoming so difficult. Some wide angle shots of the car park area showing the lack of signage is what is required. A general view where it can be sen that there are no obvious signs. After all, they say in their blurb that there are plenty of these terms and conditions signs. You say there are none. Prove it to them.
The evidential photos do not show why “the vehicle was not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space”.
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But I have posted a picture of the entrance to the car park already???
(https://i.imgur.com/1wRDiDh.jpeg)
This is the entrance. I missed the kerb on the other side of the exit barrier but that's it.
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I can't really photograph what isn't there?
You can take photos to demonstrate there's nothing there.
You don't need a million photos from every angle, but some wider angle shots of the entrance and the car park, demonstrating the lack of relevant signage, would be useful.
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there should be prominent signs at the entrance to and around the car park that are clear visible by the driver entering. you need pics to show they are not there.
please post using an external host as per the instructions....
READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**,
https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/
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Thanks for the response. I've just managed to get the photos downloaded. Only 4 images.
(https://i.imgur.com/ERRv25e.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gyhPTMW.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NMXX2hr.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/B8YvXIg.jpeg)
I am still unclear about the car park photos as I can't really photograph what isn't there? Just take photos from the entrance? Down every lane? Sorry not trying to be difficult because I've just provided photos of the only signs present at the car park.
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Thank you for that. However, you have not answered my question about evidential photos.
Also, if you can, you should take photos of the car park to show the lack of signs. They state in their blurb that there are clear signs showing the terms and conditions in all parking locations.
Either there are… or there aren’t as you claim. Get evidence to back up your claim.
Based what you’ve shown up and told us so far, there are serious contractual issues with both the Trusts and the operators methods.
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Fiddly to reply as I'm on the phone
1. I've not redacted the date but this is the full site name
(https://i.imgur.com/iGDPqNR.jpeg)
2. The photos I've attached are my own from the specific carpark. Do you mean the specific space the car was parked in? There isn't any other signage present.
3. The permit is linked to the staff ID badge which is swiped to gain access. There isn't a physical permit.
To apply for a permit staff have to sign this
(https://i.imgur.com/f2tjDiT.jpeg)
4. I couldn't find a specific parking terms document, but there is this guidance on the intranet
(https://i.imgur.com/diUq15j.jpeg)
Digging deeper these are the relevant paras from the Parking Operations and Parking Policy documents.
(https://i.imgur.com/CalqlO2.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DlPpQS4.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TQelVqh.jpeg)
5. The pre-bookable Parking bays are apparently defunct and the parking people have been asking staff to just park in them.
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pre bookable bays? by who?
just staff or by anyone?
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What evidential photos do they have on their appeals website? Go as though to appeal and try and download any evidential photos they have and show us.
Also, how is the location of the alleged breach stated on the Notice to Driver (NtD)? You have unnecessarily redacted it and also the date and time of the contravention.
Can you get your own photos of the location showing the lack of signs?
Have you been issued a permit to park in that car park? How is the barrier operated? Do you need to show a permit or swipe a card?
What exactly do these "terms" you say are in the "...Trust documents regarding staff parking policy which say that the trust delegates enforcement to their representative (presumably APCOA) and that in obtaining a permit the staff member agrees to them (which includes getting PCNs)" say? Please show us any relevant sections of this document. Have you signed anything that agrees to the car parking terms as a staff member?
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Here are the car park signs
Entrance
(https://i.imgur.com/1wRDiDh.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2eoIBPd.jpeg)
Sign next to numbered bays (only part of the bays are numbered)
(https://i.imgur.com/Eqh7XW9.jpeg)
There are some Trust documents regarding staff parking policy which say that the trust delegates enforcement to their representative (presumably APCOA) and that in obtaining a permit the staff member agrees to them (which includes getting PCNs) - does this circumvent need to have signage at the car park and will the argument from keeper as above still work?
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Keep on at the NHS Trust CEO to get this cancelled.
Do not appeal this until Sunday 15th December (day 26). Appeal only as the Keeper with the following:
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.
As your Notice to Driver (NtD) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. APCOA has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.
The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtD can only hold the driver liable. APCOA have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
You are appealing as the Keeper only. APCOA have no idea of the drivers identity. Doing this on day 26 ties them up in the appeals process at a time when they should also be posting a Notice to Keeper (NtK).
Many PPCs in the BPA omit any NtK when replying to an appeal and the very fact a PPC forgets to send you a NtK by day 56, gives you a winning point at POPLA. A rejection letter with POPLA code is not a 'NtK'.
Either way, APCOA are benign and do not litigate.
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Nope. The car park is barrier controlled and AFAIK there has never really been any enforcement per se.
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no signs even at the main entrance to car park?
There's a straightforward response to ACPOA that someone will post shortly.
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Addenbrookes.
There aren't any signs. There's a board in front with the Park Mark logo and that's it.
I can get photos of the reserved bay signs but they are not particularly relevant and they don't have the same formatting the usual parking signs use.
Apcoa haven't been contacted yet.
The Trust CEO is definitely going to get be contacted.
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what hospital?
can you get and post pics of any signs at entrance and around car park.
have you contacted APCOA at all?
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This was received in a barrier access controlled (via staff ID) car park at a hospital.
There was no signage regarding enforcement on the site. The only signage present refers to a set of reserved bays which was on the other side of the lot. Those signs do not state the penalty or the enforcing company.
Are the grounds to contest this based on total lack of signage? On top of that the car park is charge on entry - so if the gate is triggered a charge is paid even if there is no lot available - no grace period is offered.
(https://i.imgur.com/MiH8u5E.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xnsMUZT.jpeg)