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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: PCN trouble on August 15, 2023, 09:21:48 pm

Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: Hippocrates on February 07, 2024, 08:09:33 pm
Good.  Did they say why?
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on February 07, 2024, 08:35:12 am
Hounslow opted not to contest this so a successful outcome.

Thanks for all member input, and to Mr Mustard for being ready to take them on at Tribunal.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on January 18, 2024, 11:19:29 am
Thanks Mr Mustard, have emailed you
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: mrmustard on January 17, 2024, 09:42:49 am
The 28th day is today assuming the Notice of Rejection was received on the second working day after posting. The tribunal won't refuse to register an Appeal which is only 1 day later.

I have beaten a Hounslow PCN based on the wording being wrong so you might want me to be your free representative. Email mrmustard@zoho.com
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on January 17, 2024, 09:14:16 am
Follow up question - the date on the Notice of Rejection is 19th December so does this mean I have until tomorrow to appeal to London Tribunals (28 days after date of service)? Many thanks
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on January 16, 2024, 03:29:06 pm
Thank you H, very helpful. This is the Council photo of the signage: https://flic.kr/p/2psLLEs

All other Council photos are of my car parked in the bay, which I don't dispute.

Does this representation read better:

I parked in the bay and noted the contents of the traffic sign. As shown in the Council's photo, the only option to pay for parking was to ‘pay at machine across the road’. At this stage I looked for a parking machine ‘across the road’ as per the sign. My interpretation of across the road would be to mean on the other side of the same road. However, no machine is present across the road.

There was also an arrow on the sign pointing up the road and so I walked in this direction to check for a machine. I arrived at a roundabout which had 3 exits from it. I could see no machine from the roundabout and could not possibly imagine that a driver was expected to guess between 3 possible roads, especially given the considerable distance that would take a driver from the parking space. Therefore, I drew the conclusion that the machine must have either not been installed yet (the road signs looked new to my eye) or had been removed for repairs / replacing etc. Given that there was no possible way for a motorist to pay for parking as instructed by the road sign, I concluded that it was reasonable to park within the space.

Using Google maps it is possible to identify a parking machine circa 135 metres away which is the nearest to the parking bay. It is also entirely out of sight from the parking bay and a motorist would have to choose between 3 possible roundabout exits in order to find it. I believe this is entirely unreasonable and leads to the farcical possibility of as motorist being issued a ticket by the time they are able to locate the machine, pay for parking and return to their car.

Hounslow’s formal response does not dispute that it is an unreasonable machine location in relation to the parking bay. Their response to this point is that ‘cashless solutions are available’. However, this leads to the question of how a motorist is to know this and what steps should be taken to utilise the cashless solution? Certainly the sign makes no reference or indication of this, only offering the option to ‘pay at machine across the road’. If the Council does offer a cashless solution as their response indicates, then the only possible place that instructions on how to use it could be found are on the payment machine. I do not know if this is the case or not as no photo of the machine or its location has been produced by the Council. This leads to a circular argument - in order to mitigate the unreasonable location of the machine, the Council rely on the cashless solution for which the machine has to be located!

I am also of the belief that the bay is marked incorrectly resulting in the location where my vehicle was parked not being within the parking place designated by The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 (notwithstanding the presence of bay markings). Item 68 of schedule 4 stipulates that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres". I refer you to the measurements shown at https://imgur.com/Z2XUnfT which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event.

Finally, the Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities are required to act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: H C Andersen on January 15, 2024, 05:11:49 pm
Where are the council's photos pl? It's better to reference and ridicule theirs than introduce your own.

I parked and saw the relevant traffic sign - see the council's evidence;
This states '*****'.

Once you've disposed of this issue - that it doesn't refer to methods of payment- then you return to where the mythical payment instructions are specified..and they'll no doubt be on the machine. So, the whole issue of their response and rationale is predicated on the motorist finding the machine in the first place, which brings you back to the sign and the arrow.

Don't make exaggerated claims but IMO refer to the decision you've got and focus on the underlying principles: each case turns on its own facts and those in your case are that the council are relying upon a sign with an arrow to convey the meaning that the machine lies in one of three possible exit roads beyond a mini- roundabout.

..is a start which can be fleshed out.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on January 15, 2024, 03:12:19 pm
I am preparing to submit my appeal to the London Tribunals so could the following be checked for errors or improvements please:

1)  Alleged contravention did not occur – The closest payment machine is 135 yards away and entirely out of sight from the parking bay. This is completely unreasonable and a motorist should not be expected to hunt down a payment machine which could take a significant amount of time and leads to the possibility of being issued a ticket by the time a motorist returns to the car. The Council’s rejection letter claims that “There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay is...for people paying to park by phone or online”. As can clearly be seen in the photos, this is plainly inaccurate and the sign only offers the option to ‘pay at machine across road’. This only leaves the motorist with the option of paying at a machine which is not ‘across road’ but instead a completely unreasonable distance away and out of sight

2)  Penalty exceeds amount applicable in the circumstances – The Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities must act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance

3) The alleged contravention did not occur - The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 provides at item 68 of schedule 4 that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres".

The bay is incorrectly marked and the location where my vehicle was stationary is not within the parking place designated by the order, notwithstanding the presence of bay markings. I refer you to the measurements shown at https://imgur.com/Z2XUnfT which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event

4) The alleged contravention did not occur - The Rejection of Representation letter dated 19th December 2023 states “I like to advise that both Pay & Display and Pay By Phone (PBP) cashless solutions are available for the convenience of the motorists parking in the Sutton Lane North Shared us bay. A cashless solution is offered which should be used as an alternative should the pay and display machine not be accessible.”

This clearly demonstrates that is the Council’s intention to offer a cashless solution and that there are circumstances where the pay and display machine might not be accessible (for example when it too far away and out of sight). However, the images show that no pay by phone option was offered on the signage which only offers ‘pay at machine across the road’. As the rejection letter confirms that pay by phone should be “available”, it can only be concluded that the signage is inadequate and insufficient


Would anyone fancy representing me by any chance as the point around the location of the bay is quite technical and I don't think I could robustly explain it to an adjucator?
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: Incandescent on December 22, 2023, 09:43:18 pm
If the discount has not been re-offered, then it is a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals, as the penalty remains the same, and there are no additional costs.

Put their hand to the fire !
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on December 22, 2023, 08:46:32 pm
Rejection of reps now received:

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/198880276@N02/53415020034/in/dateposted-public/" title="Rejection of reps 1"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53415020034_b8fb83ed5f_z.jpg" width="472" height="621" alt="Rejection of reps 1"/></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/198880276@N02/53415132375/in/dateposted-public/" title="Rejection of reps 2"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53415132375_92fb3f9bf3_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="Rejection of reps 2"/></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

They mention that paying by phone was an option but there is no reference to this on the signage that I can see so how is a driver to know?

It seems to me there is strong case to put to the adjucator (and full penalty is in play so no downside in appealing?). Any opinions or comments on how best to tackle the appeal would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on November 20, 2023, 07:52:57 pm
Thank you CP. I have made reps on the 3 points, including your exact wording and link for point 3, and will come back to let you know of the outcome / prepare for Tribunal.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: cp8759 on November 18, 2023, 10:58:19 am
Replace point 3 with this:

3) The alleged contravention did not occur: the The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 provides at item 68 of schedule 4 that there is a bay on Sutton Lane North on the "south-east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, southwards for a distance of 6.0 metres".

The bay is incorrectly marked and the location where my vehicle was stationary is not within the parking place designated by the order, notwithstanding the presence of bay markings. I refer you to the measurements shown at imgur.com/Z2XUnfT which illustrate the point: if one takes a point 8.1 metres south of the southernmost wall of No. 22 Sutton Lane North, one finds himself almost at the southern end of the bay, rather than at the northern end. If my car was not within a duly designated parking place, the contravention cannot have occurred in any event.

Add https:// to the URL in the representation, I can't do it in the draft above as it otherwise embeds the image into the post.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on November 15, 2023, 09:19:19 am
You are entirely correct, that building is 22 Sutton Lane North and so entry 68 of Schedule 4 is the entry relating to this bay.

I'm not confident I'm reading it correctly, but is it the case that if you measure a point 8.1m south of the southernmost wall then the bay runs NORTHWARDS for a distance of 6m. The Order notes the bay as running southwards so is flawed?
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: cp8759 on November 13, 2023, 11:03:07 pm
Looking at the order I think the bay is designated because number 22 is the building on the western side of the road that Google incorrectly identifies as 22 Cedars Road, see the entry at item 68 on page 31 of the order.

However if you measure from the southern wall of that building, it's clear that the bay is not marked correctly:

(https://i.imgur.com/Z2XUnfT.png)

I'd amend your draft to incorporate this point.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on November 10, 2023, 12:48:02 pm
I've started a outline draft for formal reps so I appreciate any comments / amendments:

I contest the charge on the following basis:

1)   Alleged contravention did not occur – The closest payment machine is 135 yards away and entirely out of sight from the parking bay. This is completely unreasonable and a motorist should not be expected to hunt down a payment machine which could take a significant amount of time and leads to the possibility of being issued a ticket by the time a motorist returns to the car. The Council’s rejection letter claims that “There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay is...for people paying to park by phone or online”. As can clearly be seen in the photos, this is plainly inaccurate and the sign only offers the option to ‘pay at machine across road’. This only leaves the motorist with the option of paying at a machine which is not ‘across road’ but instead a significant distance away and out of sight

2)   Penalty exceeds amount applicable in the circumstances – The Notice to Owner was served 102 days after the alleged offence (date of PCN 20/7/23 and NTO served on 28/10/23). Local Authorities must act fairly and expeditiously, and there is no good reason for the delay in this instance

3)   Alleged contravention did not occur – The parking bay in question does not appear in The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2019. All references to parking bays on Sutton Lane North on The Order are referenced by their proximity to various house numbers. The housing is on a separate stretch of Sutton Lane North and there is clearly no housing in the proximity of the parking bay where the alleged contravention took place. Therefore, the parking bay has not been correctly designated within the Management Plan and the Local Authority has no authority to enforce the parking restrictions associated with this bay
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on November 07, 2023, 09:45:28 am
Thank you both.

In regards to the Management Order, to me it doesn't look like there is any reference to this bay. My thought process is that it should appear under Schedule 4 (permitted hours 9am - 6pm Monday to Friday, max stay 4 hours), but the entries relating to Sutton Lane North (entries 62 - 68) all have locations adjacent to specific house numbers. There is no housing where my bay is,  with all the housing on a different stretch of Sutton Lane North. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: cp8759 on November 06, 2023, 11:18:14 pm
Two additional arguments:

1) As Incandescent points out the council has been dilatory in issuing the notice to owner, and there is no good reason for the delay.
2) Check the designation of the bay, there's various references to Sutton Lane North in the order and you want to confirm that there's an entry that matches the bay you were parked in, and the bay markings on the road match the wording of the order to the letter. If there is any discrepancy that you can find, that opens a further avenue.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: Incandescent on November 06, 2023, 05:33:21 pm
The Notice to Owner must be served within 6 months, but anything over 3 months could be considered unfair, because enforcing authorities must act fairly and expeditiously. This would be under the statutory ground of "the penalty exceeds.......in the circumstances of the case"
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on November 06, 2023, 04:23:47 pm
Hi all,

Appreciate the help so far. I had somewhat forgotten about this but after my informal reps were rejected, I have now received the Notice to Owner: https://flic.kr/p/2pe9Mp6

I assume there is no technicality argument here (length of time for NTO to be issued?)?

I will prepare some formal reps to post here around the length of distance to the machine and lack of visibility or clear signage. Am I making any other arguments, such as lack of info on the sign on how to pay by phone or online?
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: cp8759 on October 16, 2023, 12:33:24 pm
No idea what happened to @PCN trouble but for reference here is The London Borough of Hounslow (West Chiswick) (Parking Places) (No.13) Order 2009 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1QF8ykM1PevRV-RL3PM4OLOV2J567X2z8).
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: cp8759 on August 20, 2023, 02:02:23 pm
Google maps suggest it's 135 yards, and the distance is wholly unreasonable because it's out of sight, so if you go and buy a ticket from the machine, by the time you get back to the car you could already have a PCN.

This passage from Antonio Prendi v London Borough of Camden (2100346960, 30 September 2010) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1JUL9KHy4YZjzGqojyx6AOD3klXEJC77L) comes to mind:

Whether there is another machine within a reasonable distance will depend on the circumstances and each case will turn on its own facts. However, the Enforcement Authority cannot expect motorists to tramp the streets of their borough trying to find a machine in working order. Going too far away from the parking place may indeed involving entering a different parking zone where, restrictions and charges could differ.

I would take this all the way.

Start by drafting a representation and posting it on here for review.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on August 16, 2023, 08:32:26 am
Hopefully this shows the exact parking location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4883337,-0.2700588,3a,90y,169.16h,84.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

(There is a only a single parking bay on this stretch of road, almost at the junction with the a4).

The machine is located here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4890555,-0.2699549,3a,75y,336.51h,90.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOs67JdTdPRYFtUEbrrA1-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

It is just up past the Queens Head pub.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: Incandescent on August 15, 2023, 09:33:21 pm
Quote
3.   Any other grounds? Would you advise taking this to adjudication?
You seem to have a reasonably strong case, but like so many cases we see, we cannot guarantee a win at adjudication. However, with nothing to indicate alternative payment option (PbP which could be one of many apps so which one !), and the machine a long way distant from the bay. I would put them to the test, but before that is definite, can you please link to street level and tell us exactly where you parked.
Title: Re: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on August 15, 2023, 09:22:58 pm
Second post for formatting reasons. I submitted the following appeal:

The sign says to pay at the machine across the road. I checked across the road and further up the road in the direction of the arrow (please see the attached videos) and no machine could be found and therefore no way to make payment. Therefore I believe the sign to be either misleading or inaccurate.

Please cancel the PCN on the basis that it was not possible to make payment as per the instructions on the sign.

I have received the attached response and have the following questions:

1.   The rejection references paying online or by phone which the sign clearly does not mention. Any grounds here?

2.   Is 330ft, especially when there are several directions it may go, too far for a machine? The sign says ’across the road’ – is this misleading based on the machine location?

3.   Any other grounds? Would you advise taking this to adjudication?


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Hounslow PCN
Post by: PCN trouble on August 15, 2023, 09:21:48 pm
I parked in a pay and display bay where the sign advised to 'pay at machine across the road'. I could not locate a machine across the road and took the following videos to show what could be seen. I have subsequently found out there is a machine some 330ft to the north (past the pub).

Not seeing a way to pay the charge, nor anywhere else to park, I was subsequently given the following ticket.

PCN: https://flic.kr/p/2oTBTaU
Sign: https://flic.kr/p/2oTD1rB
Video 1: https://flic.kr/p/2oTDroZ
Video 2: https://flic.kr/p/2oTD1rB

Streetview location: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4883337,-0.2700588,3a,75y,124.51h,75.27t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ!2e0!6shttps://streetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com/v1/thumbnail?panoid=Fuj5tPcPVR-ZDJYB1SDviQ&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&w=203&h=100&yaw=54.04284&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu