Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: jethy on November 19, 2024, 10:34:39 am
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Yes thanks very much to Mrmustard.
Heres the council letter...
https://ibb.co/YF1P8ssd
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I made the formal representations on 8 February.
The vehicle is not in a restricted street but in a bay which the council have purported to suspend.
The sign restricts loading so if the correct alleged contravention was of waiting in a restricted street during prescribed hours the correct code would be an 02 which also references loading/unloading.
Please cancel the PCN
The council have now cancelled the PCN.
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Hi, can you clarify what you mean, they do seem to have teh TMO on their website.
Thanks
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I assume mrmustard is taking care of this one; but, please check their website too as we have had some successes since they do not list any grounds on the website to which you are invited to visit!
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Do they mean where they have added the location in text in the top of the images?
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'Attached are the images of the signs which include the date, time and location of the signs.'. Where are these? All that's visible is photos of signs without any idea of their location.
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Received NTO today
https://ibb.co/album/x1k9b8
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Hello, I have received the following reply and attachments from my FAO request:
Sent on behalf of Ann Cunningham – Head of Highways & Parking
Dear ....
Re: Freedom of Information Act Request ref: LBH/16215525
Thank you for your request for information received on 09 January 2025, in which you asked for the following:
Please advise where and how this was signed during the period 11-14 Oct. 2024 in Wellfield Ave. N10. Given that the enforcement of the order is subject to the number, siting and wording of 'traffic signs', then the council would have made a point of ensuring that (and recording) the specific locations and methods e.g. on lamppost 10 or on tree o/s no. 27 etc. were consistent with their regulatory duty.
I also require a copy of the council decision which made the order.
My response is as follows:
The suspensions in Wellfield Avenue were required for gully drain cleaning to help reduce flooding which falls within the maintenance remit of the borough wide temporary order. Site notices were displayed within the designated road on. Attached is a copy of the temporary traffic management order which was produced to cover all maintenance works within the borough and the public notice that was on display at the time of the restrictions. This order came in to force on 19th September 2024 and is enforceable for up to 18 months.
The signs were erected 5th October 2024, to give residents and motorists sufficient warning of the upcoming restrictions ahead. Attached are the images of the signs which include the date, time and location of the signs.
If you are unhappy with how we have responded to your request you can ask us to conduct an Internal Review. If so, please contact the Feedback & Resolutions Team. (Please note you should do so within two months of this response.)
Yours sincerely,
Ann Cunningham
Head of Service, Highways & Parking
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Heres are the attachments:
https://ibb.co/album/xFj0Pp
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Thanks in advance
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The reason they do it this way is to save money. Instead of multiple weekly newspaper notices which cost a lot they do one for a year or more to suspend any street at any time
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OP, this council hasn't got a clue. You cannot 'suspend parking' on a road which doesn't have parking restrictions in the first instance!
What they have tried to do is to prohibit waiting and loading on a temporary basis which the law allows them to do without putting down yellow lines subject to meeting strict conditions in order to bring such restrictions to drivers' attention.
They haven't met those conditions, one of which is the placing of notices specifying the extent of the restrictions in conspicuous places such that even the most inattentive of drivers(parking on auto pilot in a road which because of familiarity they know doesn't have restrictions) would see and understand.
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Haringey do not properly carry out the process by which they try to clear cars of streets. I have done several like this one and I don't recall any reaching a hearing. Please email me for free representation once the Notice to Owner arrives. mrmustard@zoho.com
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Hi
Oh Ok, my mistake.
I'll do that now
Thanks
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OP, I probably should have explained what FoI means: Freedom of Information.
It is not correspondence with parking services and unfortunately you appear to have written to someone in parking.
I would respond to the council - look up their FoI ..
https://www.haringey.gov.uk/council-elections/data-finance/information-data-requests/freedom-information-foi
Dear Sir,
I wrote to the council on ** , see the attached letter ***.
I expected this to be treated as a Freedom of Information request, but instead your Sheffield-based Parking Services department has treated it as part of the formal enforcement process and responded - see attached.
I should be grateful if the council would now treat my letter as a FoI request and respond accordingly.
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Hello:
We replied to to Haringey council as advised with the following:
Dear Mrs Butt
Thank you for your letter dated 15th November 2024.
As regards the TMO please advise where and how this was signed during the period 11-14 Oct. 2024 in Wellfield Ave. N10. Given that the enforcement of the order is subject to the number, siting and wording of 'traffic signs', then the council would have made a point of ensuring that (and recording) the specific locations and methods e.g. on lamppost 10 or on tree o/s no. 27 etc. were consistent with their regulatory duty.
I also require a copy of the council decision which made the order.
Kind regards
------------------------------------------------------and have just received the following response:
https://ibb.co/rfVv80m
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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Hence the FoI request.
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It was parked at 7:30 am, the ticket was issued at 9:06am
So this implies the sign was in position when you parked. The sign is very close to your car, so I have to say it does look like the contravention is made out, but was there only one sign ? It would be easy to miss a single sign at 07.30 which is around sun rise in November.
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That sign's about tree maintenance...or is it? The standard for signing is not for the council to shove up a sign which a driver is NOT expecting to see somewhere in what they think is the vicinity and then blame the motorist.
IMO, the entrance to the road must carry a warning that restrictions are in place, apart from anything else because 'entry' is prohibited!
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It was parked at 7:30 am, the ticket was issued at 9:06am
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Yes, the OP hasn't said when the car was parked - which was when?
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Hi. Right I think I understand. So when you say a Fol request now, do you mean i write and request this information now? I am asking them where and how the order was signed during this period (as you worded above)?
Also asking them for a copy of the council decision which made the order for the specific road where my daughters car was ticketed?
Thanks
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This is the picture they will rely on concerning location of signage which is fairly conspicuous not far behind car.
(https://i.imgur.com/b2LT6JM.png)
Yes, but we need to know when the OP parked the car, and when the sign was put up. Also was the signage sufficient to convey the restriction. Their letter rejecting the informal challenge says nothing about when the sign was erected.
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This is the picture they will rely on concerning location of signage which is fairly conspicuous not far behind car.
(https://i.imgur.com/b2LT6JM.png)
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Para. 2 of the so-called order states..
'..no vehicle shall enter, proceed in or wait .....'
So, where was the 'no entry' sign(s)? (IMO, it should be enter and/or proceed in...because the way it's worded does not make entering an optional restriction).
As the 'order' doesn't create a loading prohibition, then the sign purports to go beyond the powers in the order.
If loading was similarly prohibited, then why was this not included in the contravention?
OP, I'd submit a FoI request now to the council:
As regards the '...........order' please advise where and how this was signed during the period 11-14 Oct. 2024 in Wellfield Ave. N10. Given that the enforcement of the order is subject to the number, siting and wording of 'traffic signs', then the council would have made a point of ensuring that(and recording) the specific locations and methods e.g. on lamppost 10 or on tree o/s no. 27 etc. were consistent with their regulatory duty.
I also require a copy of the council decision which made the order.
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Hi, thanks for the reply. I did look at the TMOs that Haringey have applied for and found one that would cover this and is borough wide (see below).
https://ibb.co/album/FLvdvP
My daughter is registered owner to our address. Happy to risk the rull PCN Penalty.
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It's their usual Fob-Off reply in response to informal representations. As the street isn't restricted, they must first create a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order, (TTRO), then sign it appropriately. Like any regular TRO, the signage requirements are within the LATOR 2006 regulations, in particular Regulation 18
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents
Other thing to look at is, have they actually set up a TTRO ?
The question now is, are you prepared to take them all the way and risk the full PCN penalty at London Tribunals. This would involve waiting for the Notice to Owner, submitting reps to that, then, if rejected, registering an appeal at London Tribunals.
Are you the registered owner on the V5C and is the address correct and up-to-date ? The NtO is sent to the V5C address
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Hello
My daughter parked on a road that she uses for work which has no parking restrictions. When she returned to her car she had a ticket. There was a temporary suspension in place and there were purportedly signs that she did not see. The closest sign was low down on a tree (not somewhere you would normally look for a parking restriction sign), also could have had a car obscuring the sign.
She has taken her own pics of the nearest lampposts etc and there were no signs in place. The pic from across her car shows a lamppost with no sign but there was a sign in the council pics?
So we are unsure if the signs were there when she parked, and if there wee positioned badly.
She has already challenged and has been rejected. I will post this below and the reply.
Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance
The council pics
https://ibb.co/album/ZW88Z5
Our pics
https://ibb.co/album/R3N7BB
PCN/Ticket
https://ibb.co/album/1YDCGh
First challenge letter
https://ibb.co/album/sjGC0s
Council response
https://ibb.co/album/Sfpvtp