Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Saj_87 on November 18, 2024, 03:26:10 pm
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What a load of b*****. Quasi-judicial process indeed. It's a statutory process as created by Parliament. And the London Councils have nothing to do with the process.
Anyway you have to wait until the eejits register the debt with the TEC and an Order for Recovery (of unpaid penalty charge) is authorised. That will increase the amount outstanding by £10, the Court registration fee.
You can then submit (file) the Witness Statement that will be attached to the OfR, or download the form (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62e1492bd3bf7f2d789b8d7e/Parking_TE9.pdf), to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) at Northampton County Court to the effect that you did not receive the Notice to Owner. Counter-intuitively for the purposes of such forms you are the Respondent and the Council is the Applicant.
The TEC will issue an Order revoking the OfR and cancelling the Charge Cert. The Council will have to re-serve the NTO in order to continue enforcement.
You can then challenge the replacement NTO in the normal manner, if indeed the Council are incompetent enough to serve one, on the grounds that the replacement NTO is served out of time and a procedural impropriety has occurred and probably other reasons. If they reject then you can appeal to the Independent Adjudicator where you will prevail.
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Furthermore, I have had no other letters in the post either from anyone
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Good Morning all
I have been trying to chase Havering Council for a while, sent multiple emails to them and finally got a reply back yesterday from a message which I sent back in March.
This is the reply which I received via email
[attachimg=1]
Furthermore I have been calling the TEC line and the debt is still not registered.
Any suggestions would be greatful
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The amount outstanding as of today is £165. So it seems unlikely that the Council have sent an Order for Recovery. That would have added a £10 registration fee to the amount outstanding making it £175
Wait for the OfR. And keep an eye on the amount outstanding, that will tell you that an OfR has been sent even if it hasn't been delivered yet. You should also periodically phone the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court) and check the status.
There is a guide to your situation on the Forum. Have a read and follow the instructions. Charge certificate cases under the Traffic Management Act 2004 - no original PCN or Notice to Owner (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/)
Thank you so much! how did you check the amount which is outstanding? Getting fed up waiting and unsure of what to do!
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The amount outstanding as of today is £165. So it seems unlikely that the Council have sent an Order for Recovery. That would have added a £10 registration fee to the amount outstanding making it £175
Wait for the OfR. And keep an eye on the amount outstanding, that will tell you that an OfR has been sent even if it hasn't been delivered yet. You should also periodically phone the TEC (Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court) and check the status.
There is a guide to your situation on the Forum. Have a read and follow the instructions. Charge certificate cases under the Traffic Management Act 2004 - no original PCN or Notice to Owner (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificate-cases-under-the-traffic-management-act-2004-no-original-pcn/)
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Morning all, its been over a month still and I have not heard anything from the council, No letters, No calls . . Does it still take this long?
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I called the number on the letter, it was an automated voice message and it stated the following;
After receiving the Charge Certificate, ill have to wait for the order for recovery which is issues after 28 days of receiving the Charge Certificate. Then I will receive NTO.
If anyone wants to listen to the helpline, dial 01708432787
Press 1 and then 3
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Wait for a reply.
We never advise calling, because the chances of you getting trough to someone who has the authority and skills to answer complex legal questions is zero, and you'll also have zero proof of whatever they say to you during the call.
Always get things in writing!
Appreciate the info, Im just worried that the debt will be handed over to the debt recovery agents and will be chasing me up.
They would have to send a letter labelled Order for Recovery first.
They cannot send it until 4th April 2025.
I am not sure if you can see amount due on the Counci's website, if you see the amount due goes up by £10 to £175 then that means your debt is registered with Traffic Enforcement Centre.
They cannot send enforcement officers until 3 weeks after the date of Order for Recovery.
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Wait for a reply.
We never advise calling, because the chances of you getting trough to someone who has the authority and skills to answer complex legal questions is zero, and you'll also have zero proof of whatever they say to you during the call.
Always get things in writing!
Appreciate the info, Im just worried that the debt will be handed over to the debt recovery agents and will be chasing me up.
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Wait for a reply.
We never advise calling, because the chances of you getting trough to someone who has the authority and skills to answer complex legal questions is zero, and you'll also have zero proof of whatever they say to you during the call.
Always get things in writing!
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You could try this:
https://havering-self.achieveservice.com/service/lbh-Parking-PCN-Online-enquiry-form
Thank you very much for your help, I've just submitted the an online reply and stated what H C Andersen instructed me to do.
Now the question is, shall I wait for a few days and call them up ? or wait for a reply back from their online form enquiry. Dealing with this has giving me so much anxiety :(
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You could try this:
https://havering-self.achieveservice.com/service/lbh-Parking-PCN-Online-enquiry-form
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They've handed you victory on a plate.
IMO, write back to them and do not bother about following the procedural route..you could still do this if necessary, but let's cut to the chase.
PCN ******* 12 Nov. 2024
I refer to the above regulation 9 PCN issued to my car on 12 Nov. 2024.
I also refer you to your letter dated 9 January 2025 rejecting my informal representations.
I further refer you to your Charge Certificate issued on 18 March 2025 on the grounds that you had issued a Notice to Owner on 12 November 2024, the same day that you issued the PCN.
For whatever reason, your notice procedures have failed and rather than wait for the Order for Recovery, Witness Statement, revocation order, NTO, formal representations and your cancellation of the PCN, either at this stage or on the subsequent direction of the adjudicator, I request that you cancel the PCN now.
Good Afternoon,
Ive just looked at the Charge Certificate and the only way to contact them is via telephone. Shall I try via the Havering.gov website or write to them? Any suggestion would be grateful
Kind regards
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They've handed you victory on a plate.
IMO, write back to them and do not bother about following the procedural route..you could still do this if necessary, but let's cut to the chase.
PCN ******* 12 Nov. 2024
I refer to the above regulation 9 PCN issued to my car on 12 Nov. 2024.
I also refer you to your letter dated 9 January 2025 rejecting my informal representations.
I further refer you to your Charge Certificate issued on 18 March 2025 on the grounds that you had issued a Notice to Owner on 12 November 2024, the same day that you issued the PCN.
For whatever reason, your notice procedures have failed and rather than wait for the Order for Recovery, Witness Statement, revocation order, NTO, formal representations and your cancellation of the PCN, either at this stage or on the subsequent direction of the adjudicator, I request that you cancel the PCN now.
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Evening all.. I've been waiting for the Notice To Owner to arrive but I got this instead?
Any thoughts?
https://imgur.com/a/YTm0paY (https://imgur.com/a/YTm0paY)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Evening all.. Just an update.. I got this through the post a few days ago.
(https://imgur.com/a/4Z2ERz5)
Bolleaux and a principal is not a principle. Wait for the NTO. They do not reoffer the discount - letter does not make this clear.
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If by "wings", they mean the sloping kerbstones, then they are wrong, the contravention only occurs when the vehicle is adjacent to the dropped section. This has won appeals over the years, yet councils still bluff their way on this, knowing that most people then cough-up.
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Evening all.. Just an update.. I got this through the post a few days ago.
(https://imgur.com/a/4Z2ERz5)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I note in the pic, the council have conveniently placed a bollard at the point the kerb stone is level with the carriageway. it's clear the car is not past that point.
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Wait for the NTO.
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Image? What stage are you at? I am tempted to offer to represent.
Aplogies! Please see the link now. Recieved a letter stating the contravention still stands, either pay up or wait for Notice to owner
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Image? What stage are you at? I am tempted to offer to represent.
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I've finally got a reply and they have still insisted that the contravention still stands. Please see the image below (https://imgur.com/a/Zg4m2mb)
Furthermore, I constantly see cars parked in the same spot without getting tickets.
Any suggestions on what to do next?
https://imgur.com/a/Zg4m2mb(https://imgur.com/a/Zg4m2mb)
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They don't have a close up but it's clear that with your pic as extra you were only by the sloping stone. They also show you by a brick wall.
This is a win for you.
+1
As close to a slam-dunk win as I've seen recently.
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They don't have a close up but it's clear that with your pic as extra you were only by the sloping stone. They also show you by a brick wall.
This is a win for you.
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Council have finally put the pictures up after waiting over a week
(https://parking.havering.gov.uk/pages/Media.aspx?PhotoID=0&txtNoticeNumber=HG2061700A&txtVRM=ND12OCX&txtWebCode=212WF129)
(https://parking.havering.gov.uk/pages/Media.aspx?PhotoID=2&txtNoticeNumber=HG2061700A&txtVRM=ND12OCX&txtWebCode=212WF129)
(https://parking.havering.gov.uk/pages/Media.aspx?PhotoID=3&txtNoticeNumber=HG2061700A&txtVRM=ND12OCX&txtWebCode=212WF129)
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Richmond is also one of the good ones on this.
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The Traffic Management Act 2004 section 86 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86) is clear that the vehicle must not park adjacent to the section that has been lowered (or raised) to meet the level of the carriageway.
Please note that the sloping areas on either side of a crossover do not form part of the crossover. The vehicle must be parked either in front of the dropped footway where it meets the level of the carriageway or overhanging this section of the dropped kerb.
https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/parking/dropped_kerb_enforcement#:~:text=The%20Traffic%20Management%20Act%202004%20section%2086%20is%20clear%20that,form%20part%20of%20the%20crossover.
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Back in August, Stamfordman discovered this handy text & image on Hillingdon's website
https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/4972/Enforcement-of-dropped-kerbs
(scroll down)
which you can use to remind Havering of the law. It produced an unbelievable response from Harrow -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/parking-on-road-next-to-dropped-kerb-contravention-27/msg45242/#msg45242
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You don't need to quote the Traffic Management Act verbatim at this informal stage - they are supposed to know it. I would just send the below.
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I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that there was no contravention. As your pictures make clear, none of my car was adjacent to the fully lowered part of the kerb. The sloping part does not count as it is not fully lowered.
I look forward to your early confirmation of cancellation.
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+1
And Havering council also know full well that the sloping part isn't included in the prohibition of parking, but serve PCNs anyway, because they know virtually all people getting a PCN then just cough-up. Yes, it's immoral, venal, and rapacious behaviour, but par for the course with council and also governmental departments these days; think of the Post Office Horizon scandal.
Thank you for confirming, I will start an appeal for it, although I do need evidence for the sloping part.
Where can I look for this information?
Kind regards
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That's not a contravention as you are just short of the fully dropped part of the footway. The sloping kerbstone doesn't count.
Havering seems to be slow about loading pics at present but they will have some.
Thank you for your reply,
Its been over a week and theres been no pics which have been uploaded. Do you have any regulations or where I can look to object the contravention.
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+1
And Havering council also know full well that the sloping part isn't included in the prohibition of parking, but serve PCNs anyway, because they know virtually all people getting a PCN then just cough-up. Yes, it's immoral, venal, and rapacious behaviour, but par for the course with council and also governmental departments these days; think of the Post Office Horizon scandal.
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That's not a contravention as you are just short of the fully dropped part of the footway. The sloping kerbstone doesn't count.
Havering seems to be slow about loading pics at present but they will have some.
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Good afternoon,
I regularly park on this road as its walking distance to a hospital, on my return to the car I had this PCN.
I parked within a parking bay which can fit two small cars, there was no signage around. The dropped kerb has access to flats as you can see in google maps. Although I was not blocking any access, furthermore my car was behind the black bollard.
Havering council did not take or upload any pictures of the alleged offence.
(https://i.imgur.com/I0dAVcm.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/a9MAROM.jpegg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pXjffxS.jpeg)
Street view
https://maps.app.goo.gl/XBd7DSUyqD2cyHi6A
any help would be appreciated