Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ntown on November 17, 2024, 12:38:11 am
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Thanks all. Reg is ST61 RZJ I'll post a draft later this evening
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What's the reg of the car, I don't see where you posted that?
Post up a your best draft of what you want to put on each of the OOT applications for a credibility check.
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I don't have anything more. Presumably you already know that your OOTs are passed to the council who can object to them, and invariably do so.
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Hello just wondering if anyone else has any input or if I should go ahead and send the OoTs
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Thank you. I have a tenancy agreement for evidence of the move. I'll wait for input from the others before taking action.
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Doing some of the legwork for *****7044....
7044 - date of contravention 31/3/2024
PCN issued 5/4/2024
5576 - date of contravention 19/2/2024
NTO issued 21/3/2024
You moved 8 March 2024.
7044
I was first alerted to this PCN when I received a Notice of Enforcement to my current(that is new) address on ***. I had no prior knowledge of this PCN and my subsequent investigation has shown why.
The PCN was issued by post on 5 April 2024 using my DVLA address as at the date of contravention, that is 31 March 2024. Unfortunately, I had moved a few weeks earlier (see attached evidence) on 8 March and the necessary changes had not been processed, therefore the PCN was not received nor any subsequent notices.
5576
I was first alerted to this PCN when I received a Notice of Enforcement to my current(that is new) address on ***. I had no prior knowledge of this PCN and my subsequent investigation has shown why.
The council's records show that a PCN was served on 19 Feb. 2024, unfortunately this was not received by the driver otherwise in representations I could have alerted the council to my impending move on 8 March(see attached evidence). Consequently the NTO which was issued on 21 March 2024 was not received nor any of the subsequent notices.
Short and to the point for I would suggest separate OOTs.
What evidence do you have of your move?
Wait for others.
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Does this still matter if I only just updated the V5C now
YES. As I explained in detail, even if you had changed your RK address the day after the NTO and postal PCN were issued it would have been too late. Only the address at the time of the breaches may be and is used by the authority.
The enforcement agent may and does use other tracing methods and databases. Two different pieces of legislation.
Would you pl just get online or phone them and come back with what's required.
Hello, just checking to see if you had seen these dates and if so, what I might do next.
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There is no possibility of a CCJ in the enforcement process.
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Hello I have just spoken to the council regarding dates. Below is the info they have given to me over the phone.
LV12405576
19/02/2024 PCN put on car
21/03/2024 NtO issued
29/04/2024 CC issued
14/08/2024 Warrant approved (maybe he meant sent for approval?)
28/08/2024 Not sure what this was I just wrote down "WFC"
15/09/2024 Sent to TEC
19/09/2024 Rejected by TEC
19/09/2024 Approved by TEC later that day
LV60357044
05/04/2024 postal PCN and NtO sent together
09/05/2024 CC issued
30/08/2024 Warrant approved (again could mean sent for approval)
On another note, is this OfR business different to CCJs? My credit score still seems okay with at least one of the agencies.
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Does this still matter if I only just updated the V5C now
YES. As I explained in detail, even if you had changed your RK address the day after the NTO and postal PCN were issued it would have been too late. Only the address at the time of the breaches may be and is used by the authority.
The enforcement agent may and does use other tracing methods and databases. Two different pieces of legislation.
Would you pl just get online or phone them and come back with what's required.
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Incandescent has made a typo. The Bailiff Compliance Stage fees for the Notices of Enforcement total £150 (2 x £75).
Definitely !! I can do arithmetic
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OP, as the authority must use your DVLA keeper address as at the date of the contravention for all posted notices(in this case the NTO, Charge Cert and OfR for parking and postal PCN, CC and OfR for the bus lane) then it's the dates of the first of these which are important. How much you can make of this depends upon the dates themselves.
Nothing in the NoEs gives you these dates, so get online and see if the NTO and postal PCN issue dates are given. If not, find out from the authority - just ask for the info, not copies, and pl don't be tempted to discuss the contraventions.
By "get online" do you mean check if I can see info on https://parking.liverpool.gov.uk/pcn/?
Although changing keeper address data may be done online, it may also be done by post. Nothing is held against an individual who chooses the latter.
The official advice from DVLA is that if you have not received your new log book within 4 weeks then contact them. I read this to mean than a period of 4 weeks is taken as being a limbo period and while I don't have specifics from the Traffic Enforcement Centre(to whom you would submit your OOTs) I would be surprised if they don't have a similar period.
Remember, if an authority requests keeper info while a change is being processed then the old and out of date info would be supplied. DVLA doesn't write to authorities after the event and say 'you know that RK address we gave you on 5 October for a contravention on 8 August, well we've changed it now w.e.f 7 August.'
Dates, dates, dates pl.
Your question cannot be answered without these.
Does this still matter if I only just updated the V5C now ? i.e. if the dates you mention are before/close to my moving date then the case is stronger because I would still be in this position had I updated my V5C on time?
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Although changing keeper address data may be done online, it may also be done by post. Nothing is held against an individual who chooses the latter.
The official advice from DVLA is that if you have not received your new log book within 4 weeks then contact them. I read this to mean that a period of 4 weeks is taken as being a limbo period and while I don't have specifics from the Traffic Enforcement Centre(to whom you would submit your OOTs) I would be surprised if they don't have a similar period.
Remember, if an authority requests keeper info while a change is being processed then the old and out of date info would be supplied. DVLA doesn't write to authorities after the event and say 'you know that RK address we gave you on 5 October for a contravention on 8 August, well we've changed it now w.e.f 7 August.'
Dates, dates, dates pl.
Your question cannot be answered without these.
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Incandescent has made a typo. The Bailiff Compliance Stage fees for the Notices of Enforcement total £150 (2 x £75).
When enforcing more than one PCN the bailiff can only charge the Enforcement Stage fee of £235 once, this applies here.
You're right a PCN should have been stuck to your windscreen for the parking contravention. When that wasn't paid or challenged a Notice to Owner would have been posted to the registered keeper to the address held by the DVLA. The NTO couldn't have been issued and posted until after you moved, so an OOT application might stand more chance.
If your Out of Time applications were successful then you would be put put back to the NTO stage for the parking contravention and the postal PCN for the bus lane contravention.
You'll need a very good explanation as to why you are late with your Statutory Declaration and Witness Statements.
If there are any outstanding PCNs out there then the notices would have gone to the old RK address. This is because the Enforcement Authorities would have asked the DVLA for the RK details that applied on the date of contravention. Updating your address won't on it's own cause them to be redirected to your new address.
Any new contraventions, those that occur after you've updated your address, would go to the updated address.
does ADHD (NHS diagnosed/repeat prescription for treatment) count as a very good explanation/defene? I don't want to waste my time if the chances are low
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OP, as the authority must use your DVLA keeper address as at the date of the contravention for all posted notices(in this case the NTO, Charge Cert and OfR for parking and postal PCN, CC and OfR for the bus lane) then it's the dates of the first of these which are important. How much you can make of this depends upon the dates themselves.
Nothing in the NoEs gives you these dates, so get online and see if the NTO and postal PCN issue dates are given. If not, find out from the authority - just ask for the info, not copies, and pl don't be tempted to discuss the contraventions.
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Incandescent has made a typo. The Bailiff Compliance Stage fees for the Notices of Enforcement total £150 (2 x £75).
When enforcing more than one PCN the bailiff can only charge the Enforcement Stage fee of £235 once, this applies here.
You're right a PCN should have been stuck to your windscreen for the parking contravention. When that wasn't paid or challenged a Notice to Owner would have been posted to the registered keeper to the address held by the DVLA. The NTO couldn't have been issued and posted until after you moved, so an OOT application might stand more chance.
If your Out of Time applications were successful then you would be put put back to the NTO stage for the parking contravention and the postal PCN for the bus lane contravention.
You'll need a very good explanation as to why you are late with your Statutory Declaration and Witness Statements.
If there are any outstanding PCNs out there then the notices would have gone to the old RK address. This is because the Enforcement Authorities would have asked the DVLA for the RK details that applied on the date of contravention. Updating your address won't on it's own cause them to be redirected to your new address.
Any new contraventions, those that occur after you've updated your address, would go to the updated address.
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The advice at this, the Compliance stage of the process, is indeed to pay to avoid further charges; the bailiffs part of the sum demanded is £140 the legal compliance stage fee. Submission of an out-of-time Witness Statement (one for each PCN), is not affected by your paying the bailiffs. Incidentally, bailiffs are now legally called "enforcement agents" since 2014.
Whether an OOT WS would succeed is moot, because you have not updated your V5C for 7 months, so you would need a cast-iron reason for not doing so. Have you such a reason ?
If you don't pay, they can visit and add on £235 per PCN, and finally start to take control of your property. Your car is likely first for seizure, because they can only seize goods at the address on the warrant, plus goods on the highway.
Extract from Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007
Goods which may be taken
9An enforcement agent may take control of goods only if they are—
(a)on premises that he has power to enter under this Schedule, or
(b)on a highway.
Thank you for replying. I will pay the enforcement agents now. And no, I do not have such a reason.
Is doing anything else on this a waste of time then?
If there are more outstanding PCNs, can I count on them arriving once my V5C address change is processed or is there something else I should do to avoid more nasty surprises?
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The advice at this, the Compliance stage of the process, is indeed to pay to avoid further charges; the bailiffs part of the sum demanded is £140 the legal compliance stage fee. Submission of an out-of-time Witness Statement (one for each PCN), is not affected by your paying the bailiffs. Incidentally, bailiffs are now legally called "enforcement agents" since 2014.
Whether an OOT WS would succeed is moot, because you have not updated your V5C for 7 months, so you would need a cast-iron reason for not doing so. Have you such a reason ?
If you don't pay, they can visit and add on £235 per PCN, and finally start to take control of your property. Your car is likely first for seizure, because they can only seize goods at the address on the warrant, plus goods on the highway.
Extract from Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007
Goods which may be taken
9An enforcement agent may take control of goods only if they are—
(a)on premises that he has power to enter under this Schedule, or
(b)on a highway.
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Hello,
I have had a howler and not got round to updating the address on my V5C since moving home on March 8, 2024.
I had no knowledge of these PCNs until I opened a couple of notice of enforcement letters earlier this evening summing up to £350. The first one is odd, I would have thought they would leave something physically on my car...
I have to wait until the website is back up tomorrow morning to update the address.
Is the info in this (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/did-not-receive-pcn-and-one-year-later-got-3-notice-of-enforcement/msg41116/#msg41116) thread still the recommended course of action? i.e. just pay the bailiffs, send an Out-of-Time Witness Statement to the TEC and hope the council somehow doesn't object, at which point I would get refunded the £150 worth of compliance stage fees?
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