Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 09:57:37 pm

Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: b789 on December 22, 2024, 10:24:13 pm
Quote from: lateman on December 22, 2024, 08:05:45 pm
oh, i did mean to ask too if you don't mind:  how do you know from looking at the penalty charge notice that they have not fully complied with PoFA?  or can this not be revealed here?

For every occurrence of the word "penalty" or "offence" or "fine" you can find in your PCN, I will give you £100.
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on December 22, 2024, 08:30:24 pm
i can't see your signature I'm afraid, but i googled the piece of legislation.
gotta be honest, I'm not very well versed in reading legislation, and i can't really understand the compliance requirements.   i guess I'll have to have a better look when i have more time!
all the best
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on December 22, 2024, 08:08:04 pm
There is a link to Schedule 4 of PoFA in my signature underneath each of my posts. Paragraph 9 explains what a Notice to Keeper must contain in order to be compliant in order to hold the keeper liable. Compare what that paragraph states is required, vs what your notice contains.

Smart don't even make an attempt to comply.
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on December 22, 2024, 08:05:45 pm
oh, i did mean to ask too if you don't mind:   how do you know from looking at the penalty charge notice that they have not fully complied with PoFA?   or can this not be revealed here?
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on December 22, 2024, 08:02:07 pm
Hi, quick update to the situation:

Smart Parking responded to the appeal just in time, they sent a letter through the post on 10th December.

The charge has been completely cancelled!

Thank you so much once again for your excellent advice and support

lateman
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on December 10, 2024, 03:47:13 pm
Yes - you could take a look at the Sector Single Code of Practice (there's a link in my signature) and quote the section that stipulates the deadlines for responding to appeals.
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on December 10, 2024, 02:57:06 pm
thank you, I'll do that now shortly.

do i just explain that i made as appeal 4 weeks ago, haven't had a reply yet, and can they confirm that this is the end of the matter?
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on December 10, 2024, 02:34:06 pm
Try the following email - info@smartparking.com (info@smartparking.com)
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on December 10, 2024, 02:30:16 pm
hello again.

I've been keeping a close eye on my email and spam folder,  but i haven't received a reply yet, other than the acknowledgement email which i received within a day or two of my appeal email.

i think this Friday (13th December 2024) will be 28 days since i emailed my appeal to them.

if they do not reply by then, what is the best way to chase them up?

thank you in advance
lateman
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 13, 2024, 11:28:58 pm
ok, i will.  thank you very much again
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on November 13, 2024, 11:17:42 pm
There should be no need to follow up by post.

I have appealed a Smart Parking charge myself somewhat recently (last 6 months) and from memory, their acknowledgement email came a couple of days after submitting, and their response a few weeks after that. Keep a close eye on your spam folder, the first email I had from them went into my spam.

The Code of Practice requires them to respond to appeals within 28 days, so if you haven't heard anything from them by such time, then chase them.
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 13, 2024, 10:54:49 pm
I have just sent the appeal via their website, using DWMB2's template.  I'm now anxiously awaiting the response!

I don't need to post a physical copy to them also, in the case that something went wrong?
(I did get a screenshot of the appeal confirmation page though)
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 11:39:06 pm
guys, i cannot thank you both enough for your excellent and extremely prompt advice on this.

i will use one of the templates in my appeal tomorrow and i shall post here to inform you all of the outcome.

best wishes to you both =)
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on November 12, 2024, 11:30:32 pm
Grand - their boilerplate remains unchanged. Either mine or b789's appeals will do the trick. AFAIK they both have a 100% record with Smart.
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: b789 on November 12, 2024, 11:28:59 pm
As already pointed out to you and upon evidencing the Notice to Keeper (NtK), they have not relied on PoFA to be able to hold the Keeper liable.

Easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Just use the appeal provided above by @DWMB2 or you can use this one which is basically the same but is slightly more disdainful of the parasitic vermin who are out to scam you:

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Smart Parking has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. Smart Parking have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 11:03:35 pm
here are (hopefully) both the pages of my parking charge notice

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 10:53:14 pm
again, thank you so much for your prompt, excellent advice.

i will try to upload the notice before i go to bed, but failing that, I'll do it after work in the afternoon tomorrow
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on November 12, 2024, 10:45:43 pm
To save me digging it out in the morning, here's the usual appeal template I use with Smart Parking:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ________) for vehicle registration mark ____ ___, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("The Act"). You have chosen not to issue a Notice to Keeper in accordance with The Act, and it is now too late for you to do so.

There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,

Do show us the notice before sending anything though. You can redact barcodes if you wish - we need to see both pages, all dates, times and boilerplate etc., but redact your name and address, vehicle reg, and the PCN number.
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 10:44:28 pm
when i post the notice, should i also redact any barcodes or QR codes?
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 10:41:21 pm
ok thank you again.

oh, and yes, I am the registered keeper of the vehicle
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on November 12, 2024, 10:39:33 pm
Quote from: lateman on November 12, 2024, 10:34:32 pm
what happens if my appeal gets ignored and i get another demand for an increased charge?
Cross that bridge in the very unlikely event that happens. Their code of practice requires them to respond, and if they don't within the relevant timeframe, you can chase them up.

Where you hear of people having appeals 'ignored', I'd wager that more often than not what actually happened is one of the following:
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 10:34:32 pm
thank you so much once again.  I'll do that now.
i might upload the notice tomorrow though, as i have to get up very early for work in the morning!

one more thing if you don't mind.. what happens if my appeal gets ignored and i get another demand for an increased charge?
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on November 12, 2024, 10:32:10 pm
It is sometimes wise to refer to 'the driver' just in case. I think the chances of Smart trawling these forums is relatively low for simple cases like this, and especially not at 22:30 at night so no need to delay uploading, but if you wish to modify your post you should still be able to, so don't delete and re-post, just edit (there is a time limit to prevent the feature being abused).


Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 10:21:13 pm
thank you so much for your prompt reply.

before i upload anything though, should i delete, re-word and repost my query, as my post looks like it could imply that i was the driver?
Title: Re: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: DWMB2 on November 12, 2024, 10:06:05 pm
The good news is that Smart Parking never (so far) comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act. This means that they cannot recover the charges from the registered keeper of the vehicle - only the driver, who they do not know. I don't like advising blind though, so please share a copy of the notice you have received, redacting only your name, address, vehicle registration mark, and PCN number. Please also confirm that you are the registered keeper of the vehicle. Once you've done that, I'll be able to provide an appeal that will almost certainly get the charge cancelled.

There's a guide to uploading images here: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide  (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)

Quote
did not really take much notice of any signs on entry (does anyone?!) but I don't think that is unreasonable
For future reference, you should always check the conditions of parking when entering private land, to determine under what conditions you are allowed to park (if at all). Private parking charges are contracts - and failing to read the terms, provided they are there to be seen/sufficiently displayed, is no defence.

These horrible companies are rife, and not reading signage could make you an easy target, so keep your eyes peeled.
Title: Smart Parking (unfair) charge notice
Post by: lateman on November 12, 2024, 09:57:37 pm
Hi all, I wonder if someone can offer me some advice please..

Today I received a parking charge notice from Smart Parking (it is dated 5th November 2024, which means it arrived a week later).
It informs me that my vehicle overstayed in a McDonalds car park on Saturday 27th October 2024 and I've been issued with a charge of £100, which will be reduced to £60 if payed within 14 days.

I do not dispute the amount of time the vehicle stayed in the carpark.  I do not know how long it stayed, but there's time-stamped photographs of my vehicle entering and exiting the carpark so I accept their word that it stayed for the time they claim.
The reason I think this charge is unfair is that the driver went to dine at said McDonald's with their spouse and two small children.  Admittedly, the driver did not really take much notice of any signs on entry (does anyone?!), but I don't think that is unreasonable, as the family, who are semi-regulars there) just innocently went into the carpark (which is specifically for McDonald's customers), parked up, dined there and left when they finished dining.  They were in the restaurant for approximately 1½ hours, which may seem to some people like a long time, but I'm sure families with small children will agree that things usually take a little longer when you have small children.
(They didn't do anything other than dine there. The car was parked there only for the amount of time they spent in the restaurant)


I obviously don't want to pay as I feel the charge is unfair and excessive.  And I'm worried that if I attempt to appeal, that the appeal will get ignored and the situation will escalate, costing me even more money in the long run (I did some googling and found that this was the case with some people).

So it looks like have 6 days left to pay the reduced charge or make an appeal?


Any help or advice would be very much appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Lateman