Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Blaz on November 12, 2024, 04:11:30 pm
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Well done! Always have a go.
And thank you for reporting back the outcomes. All too often we never hear back.
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Happy New Year all!
Well, I must say I never expected this but my formal appeal was accepted.
I wonder what they're on about about 'being unable to retrieve important information'.
Probably realized a) they cocked up, b) I won't go down without a fight and dropped it?
I might politely enquire at some point since I do plan to use that very same spot for parking in the future.
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I see, thank you for your explanation.
If I'm getting this right, they've actually stated this in their reply to my informal appeal but cited it as grounds for issuing the ticket because I double parked:
'In any road designated as a restricted street the complete width of the street, from the building line on either side of the street, is included in the restriction. It is therefore a contravention to ‘Double Park’ in any part of the street, whether adjacent to vehicles parked on yellow lines or in any form of parking bay or place.'
I'll post the appeal as above. I'm expecting rejection no matter what I write since it's the same party reviewing it. Then I'm counting on the impartial review at the tribunals to work in my favour.
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"permit parking area”
an area—
(a)
into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)
where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)
The presumption beyond the sign is that every length of carriageway adjacent to the kerb IS a dedicated parking place reserved for holders of your permit!
The disabled bay and that adjoining are marked at right-angles to the kerb(and signed which is permissible)
You were parked at right-angles to the kerb where there were no bay markings....
..= you were parked in a 'dedicated parking place' reserved for holders of your permit.
The contravention therefore fails on this limb as well.
Frankly, IMO it's a nonsense having a PPA in this area because of the irregular shapre of the carriageway. But the sign is there.
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OK great, thank you, Neil.
I'll fix the issues as you suggested and submit the same appeal for both.
Yes, speak later when it gets rejected (comforting to know we've got a perfectly functional and predictable system here ::).
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I plan to use the same for both PCNs, unless there are any grounds against them issue another PCN at 5:11, following the 1st at 22:35? Probably not, since it's technically the next day?
If your vehicle hadn't moved then you make a valid point; particularly as it was the same CEO.
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I marginally preferred your first draft but either will do.
It is a 'penalty charge not a parking charge.
Your references to the kerb should be carriageway --- although there really is none in such an area -- effectively a car park.
I've marked in red some irrelevant waffle you might leave out.
I would like to appeal this PCN on the basis that the contravention did not occur.
I am alleged to have parked more than 50 centimetres from the kerb. You will see from CEOs and my photographs that my car was parked perpendicular to the kerb, which is not prohibited, and is well within the 50 cm from the kerb with its rear bumper.
Your reply to my informal representation introduced a fresh allegation that I was double parked. However, the layout of this piece of ground clearly shows it is designated for multi-vehicle parking for the residential properties, with vehicles next to one another, and the only relevant kerb is the one I am up against with the rear bumper. There is no offence in parking perpendicular to the kerb, which is all I did.
I request that you give this matter a fresh and impartial consideration. I’m sure you will see that the evidence unequivocally demonstrates that no contravention has occurred and will therefore cancel this Parking Charge.
You can mention to them tribunal case 2240189683 from which they've clearly learnt nothing.
"The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was parked more than 50cm from the edge of the carriageway and not within a designated parking place when in Snowshill Road on 10 December 2023 at 14.32.
The Appellant denies the contravention.
I have considered the evidence in this case and I find that the Authority has not proved that the Appellant's vehicle was parked more that 50cm from the edge of the carriageway.
The reason being that I find that the Appellant's vehicle was parked in a car park where there is no carriageway.
The appeal is allowed."
IMO you have nothing to worry about
Just let us know when you receive the inevitable rejection and don't go jumping the gun and register an appeal at tribunal like someone else I'm helping has.
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Hmm, not sure. Was really just being curious.
I think the CEO judged that I blocked the Prius in (ie. I double parked it - not the case, since he managed to get out for school run and back in that morning). That's why they slapped Contravention code 26 on, since it's also known as Double parking. We'll just forget the fact that I was within 50cm of the kerb to make it fit. Or maybe I should have been within 50cm to the far kerb on the right? Maybe to all the kerbs in the postcode simultaneously? :)
Anyways, back to productive focus - my draft:
I would like to appeal this PCN on the basis that the contravention did not occur.
I am alleged to have parked more than 50 centimetres from the kerb. You will see from CEOs and my photographs that my car was parked perpendicular to the kerb, which is not prohibited, and is well within the 50 cm from the kerb with its rear bumper.
Your reply to my informal representation introduced a fresh allegation that I was double parked. However, the layout of this piece of ground clearly shows it is designated for multi-vehicle parking for the residential properties, with vehicles next to one another, and the only relevant kerb is the one I am up against with the rear bumper. There is no offence in parking perpendicular to the kerb, which is all I did.
I request that you give this matter a fresh and impartial consideration. I’m sure you will see that the evidence unequivocally demonstrates that no contravention has occurred and will therefore cancel this Parking Charge.
I plan to use the same for both PCNs, unless there are any grounds against them issue another PCN at 5:11, following the 1st at 22:35? Probably not, since it's technically the next day?
Again, grateful for your input on this!
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Yes, there's a sign 'Permit holders parking only past this point Mon-Fri 10am-2pm' and I do have a permit.
Curious, how does this play a role in my case?
I guess HCA is trying to understand the bizarre thinking of the CEO?
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Yes, there's a sign 'Permit holders parking only past this point Mon-Fri 10am-2pm' and I do have a permit.
Curious, how does this play a role in my case?
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OP, is the sign on page 162 of the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 still where it's shown on GSV 2022?
Do you hold a permit?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
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Yeah you are fine.
I look forward to whatever new version you come up with, although your original was (nearly) ok.
Don't send until we've had a look.
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Hi Neil,
Please don't worry and hope it all goes well.
Looking at it with a fresh mind this morning, I feel I need to rewrite it completely. Quoting regulations will just rub them the wrong way.
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Blaz.
I'll have a better look at this over the weekend.
Busy with hospital appointments at the mo.
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OK, that's all separated into folders per PNs and my photos. Can be found here:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/mo550rgn68rfpn67xclvy/ACGZkjH-YiJQ6wUD3OeC3n0?rlkey=pluxsknl09mr0d8hr64ta2xqd&st=73yzl0us&dl=0
Looking at the streetview my car was parked on the red square to the left of the silver Vauxhall (see attached).
Thanks for looking!
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Can you pl separate your and the CEO's photos.
Ditto.
For now we need to see the CEO photos for each pcn.
At the moment, looking at your streetview link it is difficult to understand where your car was.
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Can you pl separate your and the CEO's photos.
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Hi all,
Received the NTOs today for both PCNs (attached).
Would appreciate your input on my formal appeal draft:
According to Traffic Management Act 2004, Part 6, Section 85: In a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway in such a way that no part of the vehicle is within 50 centimetres of the edge of the carriageway.
As can be clearly seen from the evidence (CEO's photos and my attached photos) my vehicle was parked adjacent to the kerb with its rear bumper and well within the 50 cm limit, therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.
I request that you give this matter a fresh and impartial consideration. I’m sure you will see that the evidence unequivocally demonstrates that no contravention has occurred and will therefore cancel this Parking Charge Notice.
Version 2 of last paragraph (probably 'too much')
Statutory guidance for local authorities in England on civil enforcement of parking contraventions states it is in the interests of the authority and the vehicle owner to resolve any dispute at the earliest possible stage. Therefore given the evidence clearly shows the contravention didn't occur I request you give this matter a fresh and impartial consideration and cancel this Parking Notice Charge.
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Tried to send you a message but not sure it worked.
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Thanks Neil!
I will try and find you here when I receive the NtO.
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Thanks Neil!
After receiving the input here, I feel reassured I'm not going mad and will take this further.
I'm curious about how the process will go from here.
I understand after 2 weeks they will issue me an NTO and I can then make a formal representation.
Yes but they have up to 6 months to serve an NtO
Is this with a written appeal again? What arguments should I state? Just simply say: 'My car was less then 50cm from the kerb. See photo.'?
Yes, another in writing. Remind me when you get the NtO and I'll suggest some wording.
Sorry, silly questions, but everything just seems so Kafkaesque. Yeah, welcome to Newham. I've lived here for more than 10 years and parked my car in the exact same spot during that time. And one night - a double whammy. ???
'I'm happy to represent you at tribunal if it gets that far (and probably will)'
So you think this formal representation will be rejected as well and then I have to go to a tribunal.
My friend was rejected at NtO stage.
We won his case at tribunal (actually me because he was on holiday). Hearing took two minutes.
Registering an appeal at tribunal is easy and is done online. I prefer to do this for you myself.
What happens there? Do I need to hire someone to represent me?
No, you can do it yourself but we do it for free as we understand the process.
Sorry, question overload - you guys have been tremendously helpful and I really appreciate it!
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Thanks Neil!
After receiving the input here, I feel reassured I'm not going mad and will take this further.
I'm curious about how the process will go from here.
I understand after 2 weeks they will issue me an NTO and I can then make a formal representation.
Is this with a written appeal again? What arguments should I state? Just simply say: 'My car was less then 50cm from the kerb. See photo.'?
Sorry, silly questions, but everything just seems so Kafkaesque. Yeah, welcome to Newham. I've lived here for more than 10 years and parked my car in the exact same spot during that time. And one night - a double whammy. ???
'I'm happy to represent you at tribunal if it gets that far (and probably will)'
So you think this formal representation will be rejected as well and then I have to go to a tribunal.
What happens there? Do I need to hire someone to represent me?
Sorry, question overload - you guys have been tremendously helpful and I really appreciate it!
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DO NOT give up with this.
Newham are notorious for not understanding the alleged contravention.
I'm happy to represent you at tribunal if it gets that far (and probably will)
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The same CEO ticketed you at 22:35 and then at 5:11. Welcome to Newham... I'll bet the tow truck was in the area.
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'I would wait for the NTOs for both.'
Will do!
'Are you the registered keeper and is the v5C logbook address correct.'
Yes to both.
'As this high stakes - £260 - wait for other views but the second one cannot stand whatever.'
Thank you, you've been very helpful!
Yes, any other views on this are welcome and much appreciated. :)
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I would wait for the NTOs for both.
Are you the registered keeper and is the v5C logbook address correct.
As this high stakes - £260 - wait for other views but the second one cannot stand whatever.
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'Be careful as if Newham can get a tow truck in there they'll whip your car off to the pound...'
Look at the times - 22:35 and 5:11. I was unconscious.
I do get what you mean. I moved it as soon as I saw the ticket of course.
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The second one is a continuous contravention if car not moved so that must be cancelled but it isn't the contravention alleged anyway.
Be careful as if Newham can get a tow truck in there they'll whip your car off to the pound...
(https://i.ibb.co/K2NpMWB/image.png)
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Ahh sorry missed it - it's also in the Dropbox now.
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Post the PCN so we can be sure but the rejection cites the wrong contravention.
No, they can't allege something different to what is on the PCN.
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Sorry.....literally at the same time as Incandescent. Didn't see.
Thanks to both!
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Thank you for getting back so quick!
So just to be clear - given they stated a wrong contravention code I should go ahead and make a formal representation?
Can they change the code to 24 post factum? Even then, as you can see from the photos there are no lines indicating parking bays on the entire street.
My understanding is that they are saying I double parked - my layman's interpretation of 'double parked' is that I blocked another vehicle from moving out of the parking space. Is that even the issue here or is it actually just down to the 50 cm?
It baffles me if that's the case as even after 'I have carefully considered your comments...' they still insist it's more than half a metre ??? from the kerb and reject the appeal.
What's going on here?
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It is so blatantly obvious the contravention did not occur, if they are obdurate and you have to go to adjudication, demand costs.
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Their pics show you parked right by the kerb surely.
This is a wrong alleged contravention - for code 26 you have to be both more than 50cm from a kerb and outside a parking space.
Code 24 is perhaps what they should have given - Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space.
(https://i.ibb.co/f2F56YF/image.png)
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I need advice on two PCNs I got issued by Newham Council, London on the same night (at 22:35 and 5:11).
The contravention stated: 'Parked in a special enforcement area more than 50 cm from the edge of the carriageway and not within a designated parking space.'
See photos in - https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/mo550rgn68rfpn67xclvy/ACGZkjH-YiJQ6wUD3OeC3n0?rlkey=pluxsknl09mr0d8hr64ta2xqd&st=kot70fr9&dl=0.
See location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/XsMNtfXdgnZghL439
I have sent informal appeals for both tickets saying no contravention has occurred as my car is less than 50cm from the kerb and that there are no lines drawn designating parking spaces, so I couldn’t have been out of boundary. Also in the appeal for the 5 am ticket I have stated, the simple fact that I was in bed at 10 pm when both of these tickets were issued and was not able to move the car when the 1st ticket was issued.
They have rejected my appeal by sending me copy/paste letters stating the actual reason was that I double parked another vehicle
There was only one car in the vicinity that could be seen as blocked by my car and actually, when I was removing the tickets from my car, my neighbour pulled his car back to that same spot - a Black Toyota Prius LO08 HXV). So in fact he wasn't blocked as he was able to get out and back in. It's a subjective judgement of the traffic officer, which was wrong and it's his word against mine.
I've read that parking more than 50cm away from the kerb classifies you as double parked. I think it's pretty clear that my car is less than 50cm from the kerb, but unfortunately, I didn't think of taking a photo with a tape measure. I included a photo with tape measure of my tyre diameter for scale and also a photo to show how far is 50cm from the kerb. I think from those it's pretty clear my car is within 50cm from the kerb.
I should also mention that before going to bed I saw another car parked opposite mine (spot 3 on annotated photo) which was in fact blocking three cars: my car, my neighbour’s car mentioned earlier and another car (cars 1,2,4). I don't have a photo of this vehicle as it was already gone in the morning when I realized I got a ticket. This blocking vehicle has also received a ticket so the council must have photos taken by the traffic warden.
I'd be very grateful for your advice on this matter.
Should I try and take this further with a formal appeal? For which tickets and what should I state in appeals? Would a written statement from my neighbour saying that he was able to move his car be of any significance here?
Please let me know if I can provide any more information.
Kind regards,
Blaz
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