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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: MsTree115 on November 11, 2024, 08:57:27 pm

Title: Re: Redbridge : Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay 21 Ilford Lane Stage: Notice of Appeal ETA
Post by: Incandescent on November 11, 2024, 10:42:59 pm

 Wikipedia:
In the 24-hour time notation, the day begins at midnight, 00:00 or 0:00, and the last minute of the day begins at 23:59. Where convenient, the notation 24:00 may also be used to refer to midnight at the end of a given date — that is, 24:00 of one day is the same time as 00:00 of the following day.
So plenty to consider at an adjudication, assuming the OP is prepared to risk the full PCN penalty ! But even if the council is wrong in using 00.00, common sense suggests that a restriction cannot end before it has begun.
Title: Re: Redbridge : Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay 21 Ilford Lane Stage: Notice of Appeal ETA
Post by: MsTree115 on November 11, 2024, 10:08:01 pm

 Wikipedia:
In the 24-hour time notation, the day begins at midnight, 00:00 or 0:00, and the last minute of the day begins at 23:59. Where convenient, the notation 24:00 may also be used to refer to midnight at the end of a given date — that is, 24:00 of one day is the same time as 00:00 of the following day.
Title: Re: Redbridge : Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay 21 Ilford Lane Stage: Notice of Appeal ETA
Post by: Incandescent on November 11, 2024, 09:29:45 pm
The time of 00.00 indicates midnight.24.00 can be used instead:-
https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/noon-12-am-or-12-pm#:~:text=To%20avoid%20any%20confusion%20(and,24%3A00)%20is%20midnight.

I'm not sure how you came to assume the time of 00.00 is the start of the 14th August, because the sign says the suspension starts at 14.00 on the 14th. It would probably have been better if the council had put 23.59 on 14th Aug, or 24.00, but the time they actually put is not wrong.










;

If they put 00:00 15 August it would make sense that the suspension is till midnight but it can't be on the same day 14 hours before the start time. 23:59 would have been appropriate. I've asked a number of people on this and everyone seems so divided.  :-\

You can't have 00:00 after 14:00 on the same day. When your clock shows 00:00 it's always the next day.

https://www.npl.co.uk/resources/q-a/is-midnight-12am-or-12pm
Hmm, surely the context of the sign makes it clear enough. If a restriction starts at 14.00, it cannot end 14 hours before the start time !
Anyway, you have the absolute right in law to take the matter to the adjudicators but would have to risk the full PCN penalty.  You may, of course, win and I am wrong but I don't think I am wrong.
Title: Re: Redbridge : Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay 21 Ilford Lane Stage: Notice of Appeal ETA
Post by: MsTree115 on November 11, 2024, 09:23:24 pm
The time of 00.00 indicates midnight.24.00 can be used instead:-
https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/noon-12-am-or-12-pm#:~:text=To%20avoid%20any%20confusion%20(and,24%3A00)%20is%20midnight.

I'm not sure how you came to assume the time of 00.00 is the start of the 14th August, because the sign says the suspension starts at 14.00 on the 14th. It would probably have been better if the council had put 23.59 on 14th Aug, or 24.00, but the time they actually put is not wrong.










;

If they put 00:00 15 August it would make sense that the suspension is till midnight but it can't be on the same day 14 hours before the start time. 23:59 would have been appropriate. I've asked a number of people on this and everyone seems so divided.  :-\

You can't have 00:00 after 14:00 on the same day. When your clock shows 00:00 it's always the next day.

https://www.npl.co.uk/resources/q-a/is-midnight-12am-or-12pm
Title: Re: Redbridge : Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay 21 Ilford Lane Stage: Notice of Appeal ETA
Post by: Incandescent on November 11, 2024, 09:06:55 pm
The time of 00.00 indicates midnight.24.00 can be used instead:-
https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/noon-12-am-or-12-pm#:~:text=To%20avoid%20any%20confusion%20(and,24%3A00)%20is%20midnight.

I'm not sure how you came to assume the time of 00.00 is the start of the 14th August, because the sign says the suspension starts at 14.00 on the 14th. It would probably have been better if the council had put 23.59 on 14th Aug, or 24.00, but the time they actually put is not wrong.










;
Title: Redbridge : Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay 21 Ilford Lane Stage: Notice of Appeal ETA
Post by: MsTree115 on November 11, 2024, 08:57:27 pm
Greetings! It has taken me so long to find you guys! 


Please HELP!!

I am at the stage of notice of appeal to the Environment & Traffic Adjudicators. The council has rejected my appeals (as expected) as they believe the signage somehow makes sense.

I parked at 16:30 in a bay to pick up some heavy load from a shop nearby. The entire street and side streets had suspended bay signs.
The timing states - START: WEDNESDAY 14 AUGUST 2024 14:00 END: WEDNESDAY 14 AUGUST 2024 00:00

Now, I believe I have parked 1630h after the END time which is the start of the day of 14/08.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1DOHu-N68Wj57bY6loa8sIfSmnWUpB2E8?usp=drive_link (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1DOHu-N68Wj57bY6loa8sIfSmnWUpB2E8?usp=drive_link)

This is what I had written to the council:


I am writing to formally contest the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN)/ Notice to Owner referenced above, which was issued to my vehicle for allegedly being "parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space." I believe this PCN was issued incorrectly and would like to outline the reasons for my appeal.

1. Timing of the Suspension
The notice of suspension indicated that the bay was suspended between the following times:
•   Start Time: 14:00, Wednesday, 14th August
•   End Time: 00:00, Wednesday, 14th August
My vehicle was parked at 16:30 on Wednesday, 14th August, which is clearly not within the suspended time window and is in fact 1630hrs after the end time of the suspension. There appears to be a significant discrepancy or ambiguity regarding the exact duration of the suspension. The end time of 00:00 on the same day is highly unusual, as it typically implies the very beginning of the day rather than a time following the start time.

2. Lack of Clarity in Signage
According to Transport for London (TfL) regulations on the clarity of signage (which apply to all London boroughs, including Redbridge Council), parking restrictions and suspensions must be clearly communicated to drivers. This includes providing unambiguous information about the exact times during which the restrictions apply.
In this case, the signage was confusing and did not clearly indicate whether the suspension was supposed to end at 00:00 on the 14th of August (i.e., at the start of the day) or if it was meant to end at 00:00 on the 15th of August (i.e., at the end of the day). The lack of clear information on the signage violates the TfL's guidelines on clarity and transparency in parking restrictions.
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016 the primary legal document governing the design and use of road signs in the UK. It specifies the requirements for all types of traffic signs, including those indicating time-based restrictions. It states that signs must clearly display the times during which restrictions apply. For example, if a parking bay is suspended between specific hours, the sign must unambiguously indicate the start and end times.
In the third chapter of The Traffic Signs manual, the manual emphasizes that signs should be specific and avoid vague terms. For example, using "00:00" can be confusing, as it might not be clear whether it refers to the start or the end of a day. Instead, "23:59" or "00:01" might be used to avoid ambiguity.

3. Expectation of Reasonable Notice
The DfT provides additional guidance on parking enforcement, including the clarity required for signs that indicate parking restrictions. It states that Local authorities must give drivers adequate notice of any parking restrictions, including temporary suspensions. This notice must be clear and leave no room for ambiguity.
The ambiguous signage, in this case, did not provide sufficient clarity for me to understand that my vehicle would be in violation if parked at 16:30. The reasonable interpretation of the sign would suggest that the suspension either ended at the start of the day (00:00 on the 14th) or would extend through the end of the day (potentially until 00:00 on the 15th).

4. Request for Cancellation
Given the confusion surrounding the exact timing of the suspension and the failure of the signage to clearly communicate the applicable restrictions, I respectfully request that this Notice to Owner/PCN be cancelled. I have acted in good faith and within the reasonable interpretation of the signage provided.

Please consider this appeal carefully, and I look forward to your positive response.