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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Hustler6969 on November 11, 2024, 05:51:08 pm

Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: b789 on January 09, 2025, 10:54:01 am
(https://i.imgur.com/fNT8jiP.png)
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on January 09, 2025, 10:51:51 am
Thanks all

@mickR - believe they are the owners/parent company for 'ParkWatch'.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: mickR on January 09, 2025, 10:49:39 am
who are "defence systems  limited" ??
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: DWMB2 on January 09, 2025, 10:45:15 am
I'll provide a translation for you:

"Further information" = "We've realised we don't have a hope in hell".

Blatant PoFA cases do seem to be worth a punt at the IAS. Thanks for the update and well done!
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on January 09, 2025, 10:30:00 am
All, good news.

Just received a response from the IAS appeal lodged a few days ago - "Due to further information Defence Systems Limited has confirmed they will no longer be pursuing the matter and the parking charge has been cancelled."

Thank you all once again for your help!

Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on December 11, 2024, 01:12:59 pm
Can anyone comment on if this wording is appropriate:

"Ref: PCN X IAS Appeal Error Message

Please note this is an urgent query regarding being able to submit an IAS Appeal for PCN X.

Rejection for my appeal to ParkWatch was received on 22/11/24. This also states that “…as you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the IAS Standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.” Therefore the IAS deadline you have provided can be conservatively assumed to be tomorrow (12/12/24).

I am unable to use the IAS website to lodge my IAS appeal. When I attempt to do so using the PCN (or even appeal reference number) and car registration number, I get the below/attached error message screenshots (timestamped from today). These ask to contact the operator that issued the charge for assistance, which is what this email is.

I either require this PCN cancelled or this matter resolved. Regardless of when resolution is, as the response (if quick) may be too close to the current deadline or even past it, I would need to be provided a reasonable time period following your response to still lodge the appeal via IAS. In your responses please ensure this new deadline is clear and communicated to me.

The link in the error message is also non-functional and does not give information on contact details for ParkWatch. From either the PCN or ParkWatch’s website, the support help line number was contacted and only provided an automated message asking to put any issues in writing, while the other number is an automated payment line. From either the PCN or ParkWatch’s website, only two contact email addresses for operator issues or complaints can be found, both of which have been included as recipients in this email:
managemycarpark@parkwatch.co.uk
complaints@parkwatch.co.uk

A copy of this email may also be sent by 2nd class post to:
Park Watch
PO Box 624
Exeter
EX1 9JG
"
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on December 11, 2024, 11:00:22 am
Post deleted as duplicated in error.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: b789 on December 11, 2024, 10:47:55 am
Just make sure you have screenshots of all the error messages you keep receiving. Also, your suggestion about emailing them is the best way to keep evidence of your actions.

However, you appear to be heaping a lot of hope on the IAS appeal. The odds of your IAS appeal being successful are dismally low. Personally, I would never recommend trying an IAS appeal. It is a waste of time and effort.

The IAS are not independent and exist to simply protect their paymasters. It is a kangaroo court.

So, stop fretting about the IAS. If/when this ever proceeds to litigation, come back for advice. This would never get as far as a court hearing and even if it did, they would receive a spanking from the court.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on December 11, 2024, 10:39:35 am
Hi all, an urgent question please given the IAS deadline for this appeal by my calculations is tomorrow (12/12/24).

So I've just tried entering the details on the IAS website for this appeal. I've used the short PCN number from ParkWatch, the long OCN number (just added 0s at the start), and have done this over multiple attempts, each time checking both PCN number & reg. to make sure its right. Keep getting this error message (I would've uploaded a photo of the error message but it wont be till later this evening) - I just wanted some quick advice please on how to manage.

"Your PCN or Registration Number has not been recognised. Please try again.

Please Note: If you have had your appeal rejected and you have been told to enter your appeal on this site but keep receiving this message; please contact the operator that issued the charge for assistance.

The IAS will not have the information to assist you at this stage.

Operator Contact Details can be found at www.theipc.info/aos-members.
"

The only contact details for ParkWatch on the PCN is the payment/appeal link, an automated payment call line, or a postal address. The link at the end of the IAS error message also dosen't work and just gives a 404 error message on the IPC website and nothing in the website seems to have any further details of this or other parking operators in general.

I'm just concerned they will later claim that I did not appeal to IAS in time, which of course would not be my fault, and it seems there isnt a way to call and tell them that on the IAS website these details aren't working. No other details have been received from ParkWatch re: any different details to appeal to IAS with, everything received is posted on the links in previous posts on this thread.

The best I could think of was to send them an email a screenshot of the error message with the PCN number and reg visible, such that I end up having something in writing if needed later, but the problem seems to be there isn't an email address for them either.

On ParkWatch's website itself the 'get in touch' form seems to be geared towards people seeking ParkWatch to manage their car park, so does the provided email address: managemycarpark@parkwatch.co.uk

The only other thing I can find is ParkWatch's 'complaints policy' on it website which says: "Motorists can submit a complaint via letter or by sending an email to complaints@parkwatch.co.uk" and a bit later that "All complaints must be acknowledged within 14 days and must be responded to within 28 days.
However, we aim to acknowledge within 5 working days and respond within 10 working days.
"

Please could you advise how to reach out to them and in such a way that both I am not liable for not appealing to IAS in time and also possibly if this can be used to say due to the error the PCN ought to be cancelled.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on December 02, 2024, 04:18:14 pm
Thanks for that, I'll put in the IAS appeal accordingly.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: b789 on December 02, 2024, 03:10:36 pm
In which case simply appeal to the IAS with the following:

Quote
Independent Appeals Service (IAS) Appeal Submission
Appellant: [Your Name]
PCN Reference Number: [Insert PCN Reference]

Grounds for Appeal

I am appealing as the Hirer of the vehicle and dispute the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the following grounds:

1. Non-Compliance with Schedule 4, Paragraph 14 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA):

The Notice to Hirer (NtH) issued by the parking operator does not comply with the mandatory requirements of Paragraph 14 of Schedule 4 of PoFA. Specifically:

• The operator failed to include a copy of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) as required under Paragraph 14(2)(a).

• The operator failed to include copies of the documents as required under Paragraph 13(2)(b).

These omissions mean that the operator cannot transfer liability for the alleged parking charge to me as the Hirer of the vehicle.

2. Rejection of Initial Appeal Fails to Address the Core Issue:

The operator’s rejection of my initial appeal failed to address the fundamental issue of non-compliance with PoFA. Instead, their response merely reiterated the alleged contravention without recognising that liability cannot be imposed on the Hirer in the absence of compliance with statutory requirements.

3. No Evidence of Contractual Breach by the Hirer:

Even if the operator’s NtH were PoFA-compliant (which it is not), they have provided no evidence that I, as the Hirer, personally entered into any contract with the operator or that I was responsible for any alleged contravention.

4. Failure to Establish Hirer Liability:

As liability has not been properly established in accordance with PoFA, the operator cannot hold the Hirer liable for the charge. Any attempt to do so is a misrepresentation of the law and unenforceable.

Summary

The NtH issued to me as the Hirer is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, and the operator has failed to establish liability. As such, I request that the IAS allows my appeal and cancels this PCN.

Yours faithfully,


[Your Full Name]
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on December 02, 2024, 11:52:48 am
Most of their response will be generic but it would be useful to see it in full if you can upload a copy.

The IAS appeal if you're submitting one should ideally be more detailed, showing exactly why you are not liable. We can provide some help with this.

Rejection was received by email, I've posted the thread here (https://imgur.com/a/SAdl5D2).

Please also confirm that when you received the Notice to Hirer (NtH) in the Hirers name, did they include copies of the following documents:

(a) a copy of a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

Also, please confirm that you only appealed using the wording I advised earlier in this thread and that you did not select any option that said the Hirer was the driver.

None of those three documents were supplied with the original PCN. Both sides of the original PCN (i.e. all that was) received are in the images in the original post.

And yes, I appealed using your wording, and did not select any option that said the Hirer was the driver (i.e. only chose Hirer as advised). You can see this at the tail end of the email thread I've shared earlier within this post (in reply to DWMB2).

Thanks both for your help again.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: b789 on December 02, 2024, 09:55:47 am
Please also confirm that when you received the Notice to Hirer (NtH) in the Hirers name, did they include copies of the following documents:

(a) a copy of a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

Also, please confirm that you only appealed using the wording I advised earlier in this thread and that you did not select any option that said the Hirer was the driver.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: DWMB2 on December 02, 2024, 08:33:57 am
Most of their response will be generic but it would be useful to see it in full if you can upload a copy.

The IAS appeal if you're submitting one should ideally be more detailed, showing exactly why you are not liable. We can provide some help with this.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on December 02, 2024, 12:02:28 am
Hi again all,

Response received from Park Watch on 22/11 rejecting the appeal and giving 21 days to appeal to IAS. I guess most if not all of the wording in the letter is generic, if any help though this is the relevant paragraph from the rejection:
"Whilst we note your comments and reason for appeal, we can confirm that your vehicle was parked in an obstructive manner. Therefore as your vehicle was parked in contravention of the terms and conditions as advertised on the signage displayed on site, this PCN has been issued to you correctly."

21 days from the 22/11 is around 12/12, could someone please help with what wording I should appeal to the IAS with? Should I just re-use what I sent for the original appeal?

Thanks again

Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on November 11, 2024, 10:22:55 pm
Thank you, I'll follow the above advice on appeal wording. Presumably just using their online appeal form and keeping a copy/records is sufficient?
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: DWMB2 on November 11, 2024, 10:10:58 pm
Re. timescales - from the Code of Practice (link in my signature at the bottom of this post):

Quote
8.4. Process for appealing a parking charge
8.4.1. Where a parking operator accepts payment of a parking charge, they do not need to offer the ability to appeal providing this is clear in the notice. Parking operators must provide a process for motorists to appeal against a Parking Charge (including unpaid parking tariff) in accordance with Annex C,
which:

a) allows that the parking charge may be appealed within 28 days;
b) requires the parking operator to respond to appeals within 28 days or, where a decision on the appeal is not concluded within 28 days, requires the parking operator to acknowledge the appeal and confirm the timeframe for concluding it, including the supply of additional information;
c) requires the parking operator to consider appeals received outside of the normal 28-day period allowed for lodging an appeal where the appellant provides evidence of exceptional circumstances for the appeal not being lodged within the normal timeframes.

If (when) your appeal is rejected, you can appeal to the IAS if you wish. I'll be honest, they're a bit of a kangaroo court, so your chances there are low too, but the few successes I have seen have usually been on blatant PoFA points like this, so this case would be worth a go at the IAS in my opinion.
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on November 11, 2024, 10:03:09 pm
Thank you b789 - and what timescales can I/they expect / are bound by for next steps after I appeal? Would the next step be an IAS appeal an/or what happens if that is rejected?
Title: Re: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: b789 on November 11, 2024, 06:40:59 pm
Just to confirm... that PCN you have shown us has been sent to the Hirer in their name. I am assuming it is because the wording states that the recipient has been named as the "Hirer".

If so, it is what is known as a Notice to Hirer (NtH). What you must understand is that neither the hire company nor Park Watch (PW) know the identity of the driver. There is no legal obligation on the Hirer to identify the driver and they must not do so.

Unless there was included with the NtH:

(a) a copy of a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

Then there can be no Hirer liability for the charge. I very much doubt that PW included copies of those documents with the NtH. Because of that, PoFA does not apply and only the unknown driver can be liable.

So, appeal ONLY as the Hirer, with the following:

Quote
I am the Hirer of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Hirer (NtH) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the Hirer of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Park Watch has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The Hirer cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtHK can only hold the driver liable. Park Watch have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Do not select anything that indicates the person appealing was the driver. Only select options that show "Other" or "Hirer/Keeper".
Title: Park Watch PCN - One Stop Shopping Centre Birmingham - Obstructive Parking
Post by: Hustler6969 on November 11, 2024, 05:51:08 pm
Hi all,

Hoping to get some assistance please.

Relative had a hire car issued to him at the time of this alleged contravention.

The hire car company had earlier let him know that they had received something with re: to a contravention during the time he had the car issued to him, and eventually the notice arrived in the post.

Believe the alleged deadline to appeal/respond/pay is by 15th Nov 24 so hoping to promptly start the process on this.

Circumstances are that the car ended up being parked a little bit over the end of the bay. He had guests visiting from abroad with mobility issues and with the disabled spaces full at the time the car had been put in the bay in this way close to the M&S where they only needed to be for about 10-15 minutes.

Door bell cameras from home show them back from a round trip within about 40 minutes, shopping centre is about 5-10 minutes drive away.

Pictures of the PCN and car park signage is here (https://imgur.com/a/BdN20Xz). All the pictures are timed around the 11:56 mark.

Would anyone be able to provide me an initial appeal / wording to respond? I seem to remember the process being an appeal for the sake of an appeal, followed by an appeal to the bigger appeals body, then to ignore the letters unless a court claim is received - but can somehow elaborate / clarify how I approach this, what the steps are likely to be, and are there any different implications this having come through the hire car company?

Thanks as always.