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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: deputybusdriver on November 10, 2024, 10:16:02 pm

Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on January 11, 2025, 11:47:21 pm
I received a letter cancelling the charge for the first ticket.
Now just awaiting POPLA for the second.
Thanks for all help 😃
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on January 06, 2025, 10:36:06 am
I believe a formal complaint has already been made - if so and that has not been responded to promptly, I'd go straight to making a complaint to the BPA.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: b789 on January 06, 2025, 10:34:50 am
If you've not had a response to an appeal within the required deadline, yo make a formal complaint to PE and demand they respond within 7 days otherwise you will make a formal complaint to the BPA. Do not do a SAR at this stage.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on January 05, 2025, 10:06:08 pm
Thanks for reply and sorry for confusion.

There were 2 pcns received on consecutive days from the same parking lot. Both appealed by me the hirer. 1 appeal was rejected and is now at POPLA.

The other appeal received no reply from PE for over 35 days and subsequent communication from me has also received no reply.

The hire company charged me an administrative fee of £35 per PCN processed and when I told them that the charges were unfair and that I will be appealing both they offered to refund the admin fee if I can demonstrate that my appeals have been successful successful. I am now awaiting the outcome of POPLA for one but am unsure what to do about the appeal that has received no reply.

Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: b789 on January 05, 2025, 08:56:09 am

Thanks for the advice. POPLA appeal sent

With regard to the reply sent on 21/12/24 (see below) I have had no reply. In the interest of getting a cancellation notice from PE would you advise sending a Subject Access Request now?

For the PCN from "parking event" on 21/10/24 I have as yet received no response to my appeal (sent on 12/10/24)

Here is my planned letter to PE (unsure where to send it though - can I upload to their website in the same way as I did the initial appeal?). Any advice on how I can best obtain a letter from PE confirming that they have cancelled the PCN (in order to claim the admin fee from the car hire company):

Dear Parking Eye

PCN number...xxxx
Date 21/10/24
Registration...xxxx

It has been 35 days since I submitted my appeal as hirer of the vehicle (submitted on 12/11/24) for the above PCN and I have had no response from you.
Section 8.4.1 of the single code of practice (SCoP) “requires the parking operator to respond to appeals within 28 days or, where a decision on the appeal is no concluded within 28 days, requires the operator to acknowledge the appeal and confirm the timeframe for concluding it, including the supply of additional information”. You have failed to do this, so please can you confirm to me as hirer of the vehicle that you cannot hold me liable and will not pursue me any further.
Yours sincerely

What you are asking does not make any sense. If you have received a POPLA code, then your appeal will have been rejected by PE. There will be no "cancellation notice" until POPLA make their decision.

As long as the driver has not been identified by the Hirer and the POPLA appeal covers the PoFA failure, then that's when you should receive a notification that your appeal was successful.

Why do you need a cancellation notice? If the lease/hire company have done their job properly and transferred liability away from them to you, the Hirer, then there is no possible come back to them and they should be out of the picture.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on January 04, 2025, 10:36:10 pm

Thanks for the advice. POPLA appeal sent

With regard to the reply sent on 21/12/24 (see below) I have had no reply. In the interest of getting a cancellation notice from PE would you advise sending a Subject Access Request now?







For the PCN from "parking event" on 21/10/24 I have as yet received no response to my appeal (sent on 12/10/24)


Here is my planned letter to PE (unsure where to send it though - can I upload to their website in the same way as I did the initial appeal?). Any advice on how I can best obtain a letter from PE confirming that they have cancelled the PCN (in order to claim the admin fee from the car hire company):

Dear Parking Eye

PCN number...xxxx
Date 21/10/24
Registration...xxxx

It has been 35 days since I submitted my appeal as hirer of the vehicle (submitted on 12/11/24) for the above PCN and I have had no response from you.
Section 8.4.1 of the single code of practice (SCoP) “requires the parking operator to respond to appeals within 28 days or, where a decision on the appeal is no concluded within 28 days, requires the operator to acknowledge the appeal and confirm the timeframe for concluding it, including the supply of additional information”. You have failed to do this, so please can you confirm to me as hirer of the vehicle that you cannot hold me liable and will not pursue me any further.
Yours sincerely
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on January 04, 2025, 11:22:02 am
This looks like a decent draft. I'd maybe include a short summary sentence at the end of each point, for clarity.

So for the PoFA point for example: "As the operator has failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act, they are unable to recover the charges from me, the hirer. As such, the appeal should be upheld"
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on January 04, 2025, 09:46:25 am
Hi all and happy new year!!
If anybody has a chance I would appreciate any feedback on my POPLA appeal (in post #20). Many thanks
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on December 23, 2024, 02:13:42 pm
Hi all
If anybody has a chance I would appreciate any feedback on my POPLA appeal (in post #20). Many thanks
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on December 18, 2024, 09:41:48 am
Apologies - I was referring to the one you've not heard back on yet. I'll take a look at the POPLA appeal later.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on December 18, 2024, 09:12:29 am
Ok thanks, will do. Are you referring to my post #21 only - or #20 also…
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on December 17, 2024, 11:28:44 pm
Chase them along the lines of the below and see what you get back. If all else fails you could submit a Subject Access Request.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on December 17, 2024, 11:20:44 pm
For the PCN from "parking event" on 21/10/24 I have as yet received no response to my appeal (sent on 12/10/24)


Here is my planned letter to PE (unsure where to send it though - can I upload to their website in the same way as I did the initial appeal?). Any advice on how I can best obtain a letter from PE confirming that they have cancelled the PCN (in order to claim the admin fee from the car hire company):

Dear Parking Eye

PCN number...xxxx
Date 21/10/24
Registration...xxxx

It has been 35 days since I submitted my appeal as hirer of the vehicle (submitted on 12/11/24) for the above PCN and I have had no response from you.
Section 8.4.1 of the single code of practice (SCoP) “requires the parking operator to respond to appeals within 28 days or, where a decision on the appeal is no concluded within 28 days, requires the operator to acknowledge the appeal and confirm the timeframe for concluding it, including the supply of additional information”. You have failed to do this, so please can you confirm to me as hirer of the vehicle that you cannot hold me liable and will not pursue me any further.
Yours sincerely
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on December 17, 2024, 11:11:58 pm
Thanks all

b789 I did send a response to PE's request for further information and driver details as you advised - using a similar letter to the one you posted - they then sent me the appeal rejection and POPLA code.

Below is my planned appeal letter to POPLA (not yet sent), any feedback very welcome:

Dear Sir/Madam

This car was a hire car and I am appealing as the hirer of the vehicle.

1) The notice to hirer sent by Parking Eye on did not comply with all the requirements of paragraph 14 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) and they therefore cannot hold me liable as the hirer. Only the driver may be liable and I am under no legal obligation to identify the driver and I decline to do so.
The notice to hirer did not meet the requirements of PoFA 14(2)(a) as it did NOT include a copy of any of the following:
a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
b) a copy of the hire agreement; and
c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

2) On the “Date of Event” (22/10/24) the payment machine at Challaborough Bay Pay and Display Kingsbridge was not functional. The driver contacted Evology as advised on their website to ask how to make payment, and received no reply. Please refer to uploaded screenshot from the driver's phone - "evologynoreply"

3) In other correspondence with Evology on WhatsApp on 22/10/24 regarding another parking “event” they replied “We are aware of a technical issue with the site yesterday/today, therefore no payment needs to be made for yesterdays parking”. “Yesterday/today” refers to 21/10/24 and 22/12/24. Please refer to uploaded screenshots from the driver's phone "evologytechnicalfault"

Thank you for considering

Yours sincerely

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Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on December 09, 2024, 11:55:28 am
And show us a draft before sending anything so that we can offer feedback
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: b789 on December 09, 2024, 11:44:24 am
OK, so you have 33 days from the appeal rejection date (they allow 5 days for service of the letter). You can start putting together a POPLA appeal, only as the Hirer, and telling them that their Notice to Hirer (NtH) did comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA and therefore cannot hold you liable as the Hirer. Only the driver is liable and you are under no legal obligation to identify the driver and decline to do so.

Did you send the response to PEs request for driver details as I advised? If not, why not? Now you have to explain it all to POPLA in great detail.

Add in any other points of appeal, such as the frustration of contract due to the payment failure etc. Search the forum for other POPLA appeals to give you an idea of how to format it.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on December 08, 2024, 11:04:05 pm
Thanks for the replies.
Both appeals were sent on 12/11/24.
Attached is page 1 of the rejection notice for the appeal for the 22/10/24 PCN - let me know if it would be helpful to post any more…


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: b789 on December 04, 2024, 04:35:44 pm
Can you please confirm that when you appealed to PE, you did two separate appeals, one for each PCN.

You have 33 days from the appeal rejection date to appeal to POPLA, so no rush.

Please show us the appeal rejection letter from PE for the 22/10 PCN.

Regarding the other appeal which was sent on 12/11, they have 28 days to respond as per section 8.4.1 of the Single Code of Practice (SCoP) which states:

Quote
b) requires the parking operator to respond to appeals within 28 days or, where a decision on the appeal is not concluded within 28 days, requires the parking operator to acknowledge the appeal and confirm the timeframe for concluding it, including the supply of additional information;

It's not been 28 days yet. On day 28, if you've not heard back from them, send them a message quoting Section 8.4.1 of their own SCoP.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: H C Andersen on December 04, 2024, 02:49:54 pm
Unfortunately my appeal (as hirer) for the parking charge notice dated 22/10 was unsuccessful and I have been given a POPLA reference.

Pl post what you received.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on December 04, 2024, 12:01:20 pm
Hi
Unfortunately my appeal (as hirer) for the parking charge notice dated 22/10 was unsuccessful and I have been given a POPLA reference. How do you suggest I proceed? Are POPLA interested that the payment machine was not working and I contacted Evology - or should I stick with their failure to transfer liability to the hirer?
Parking Eye have not yet replied to my appeal to the pcn from 21/10 (sent on 12/11) - should I chase them up (I need proof of cancellation in order to be refunded admin charges from the hire complany)?
Thanks for any advice.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: b789 on November 23, 2024, 06:52:43 am
You can reply with the following:

Quote
Re: Parking Charge Notice [PCN Reference Number]

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your recent letter, in which you’ve kindly informed me that my appeal has been placed on hold for 28 days while you await information about the identity of the driver. Unfortunately, I must decline your request to do your job for you.

Allow me to remind you of a few key points:

1. As the hirer of the vehicle, I am under no legal obligation to name the driver. You might wish to take a closer look at the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) for clarification on this.

2. You have failed to meet the strict requirements of paragraph 14 of Schedule 4 of PoFA to hold me, as the hirer, liable. Specifically, your Notice to Hirer was not accompanied by copies of the necessary documents as mandated by PoFA paragraph 14(2)(a). I will leave it to you to do the necessary research in order to understand what those documents are.

Without full compliance, your attempt to transfer liability to me, the Hirer, is quite simply, unlawful. Given this, I strongly suggest that you either:

1. Cancel this Parking Charge Notice immediately; or

2. Send me a POPLA code, where you can waste some of your huge profits by paying the fee for a POPLA assessor to confirm your failure to comply with PoFA and invalidate your PCN entirely.

I trust this clears up any confusion and that you will now stop wasting both your time and mine pursuing a PCN that has no lawful basis.

I look forward to your confirmation that the PCN has been cancelled or receiving the POPLA code, should you wish to throw good money after bad.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on November 23, 2024, 12:37:18 am
Hi there
I sent the appeal letter as suggested by DWMB2 for both PCNs, appealing as the registered keeper. Parking eye sent me the following in response to the second PCN only. Should I just wait for a POPLA code?
Thanks

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Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on November 12, 2024, 09:03:45 am
Great, thanks for confirming. In which case, the appeals I suggested above should be suitable for the first stage.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on November 12, 2024, 09:02:36 am
Thanks for replies
No, there was nothing sent to me except the PCNs posted earlier in the thread.
There were no names used in our WhatsApp correspondence



 
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on November 12, 2024, 08:33:34 am
Quote
DWMB2 what makes you think the identity of the driver may have been revealed on one of the charges?
You mentioned having communicated with the parking company via WhatsApp - I don't know the contents of those messages. As b789 says it's probably nothing to worry about, I was just covering all bases.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: b789 on November 12, 2024, 02:01:02 am
I wouldn’t worry about the drivers identity unless it was specifically provided in writing to PE.

Did PE include the following documents with the Notice to Hirer (NtH) they sent to you?

(a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

Unlikely but we need to know. The wording on the NtH is not PoFA compliant anyway but we need to know this detail.

There is no point in trying to make an appeal about the technical failure when there is no Keeper liability and the driver has not been named. If PE don’t cancel, POPLA will.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on November 12, 2024, 01:14:04 am
Both PCNs were addressed to me (the hirer) and so I assume the rental company had transferred liability to me. So thanks - I will do as suggested.
A couple of questions though:
DWMB2 what makes you think the identity of the driver may have been revealed on one of the charges? Hoping I could shed light on this but can't work out what gave you that impression.
And do you think there is no grounds for appeal in Evology's admission that there was a technical problem with the payment machine?
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on November 11, 2024, 02:12:48 pm
So, are those PCNs that you have shown us, addressed to the Hirer or are they simply copies of the NtKs issued to the Hire company?
I had taken the statement "followed by 2 parking charge notices from Parking eye" to mean the notices had come directly from ParkingEye to the hirer, but this is an important clarification. OP, if the notices are addressed directly to you then you can crack on with the appeals suggested above. If not, tell us as the approach will be different.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: b789 on November 11, 2024, 02:04:00 pm
Please confirm whether the PCNs you have shown us are copies of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) issued to the hire company in their name or are they the Notice to Hirer (NtH) that was sent to you by PE after the hire company transferred liability to you, the Hirer?

You can only respond to the PCNs if they are in your name. It is not established, from what you've told us, that liability was correctly transferred by the hire company.

The hire company and PE do not know the identity of the driver. The only thing known is that the Hire company is the Keeper and you are the Hirer. The driver is the entity that is liable and there is no legal obligation on the Hirer to identify the driver.

As PoFA has not been invoked, there can be no Hirer liability. So, are those PCNs that you have shown us, addressed to the Hirer or are they simply copies of the NtKs issued to the Hire company?
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on November 11, 2024, 10:42:01 am
In which case, you could appeal each along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your parking charge notice ________ for vehicle registration mark ____ ___, in which you allege that the driver is liable to pay a parking charge. I am appealing in my capacity as the hirer of the vehicle. There is no obligation for me to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

To hold me liable for the charge as the hirer of the vehicle, you must meet the conditions specified in Paragraph 14 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“the Act”). I note from your correspondence that you have failed to meet these conditions. These failures include (but are not limited to):

  • A failure to serve a Notice to Hirer containing all the information required by 14(5) of the Act.
  • A failure to include the additional documents mentioned by 13(2) of the Act.

As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified charge from me, the hirer. As I do not have liability for this charge, I am unable to help you further with this matter. I therefore look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you do not cancel, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours faithfully,

You need to appeal each charge separately - as the hirer only. I note that for one of the charges, depending on what was said, the driver may been revealed (but only if a full name was provided), but I'd still be minded to appeal along the lines of the above for now, and see if they cancel.
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on November 11, 2024, 09:21:07 am
Day 2 parking charge notice attached

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on November 11, 2024, 09:19:43 am
Hi, thanks for reply. Day 1 parking charge notice attached. I haven’t received any other correspondence from parking eye, just from the car hire company.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: DWMB2 on November 10, 2024, 10:26:04 pm
Please show us the notices you have received (all pages) - redact only your name and home address, VRM, and PCN number. There's a guide to doing this here - READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/).

Please also confirm if you received anything else from ParkingEye such as a copy of your hire agreement, or if you just received from them the PCNs?

As this is a hire car, there are probably technical appeal points we can use that should have a better chance of success than ones about the payment machines.
Title: Parking company admits technical error but still sends parking charge notices
Post by: deputybusdriver on November 10, 2024, 10:16:02 pm
My hire car was parked at a car park with numberplate recognition run by parking eye / evology on two consecutive days when the payment machine was not working
On the first day we parked and were unable to pay at the machine and could not find any other way to pay. The following morning my wife whatsapp messaged Evology about this, giving the vehicle details and asking how we could pay. Evology replied "we are aware of a technical issue with the site yesterday / today therefore no payment needs to be made for yesterday's parking". We later noted that unfortunately in my wife's initial message autocorrect had altered the numberplate by one letter.
Later that day we parked in the same spot. I tried to pay but again the machine was still not taking payment. I messaged Evology to ask providing the vehicle details (correctly) and asking how I could make payment. On this occasion, they did not reply.
We have recently received 2 letters from the car hire company informing us of 2 x £35 administrative fees (which have been charged to my credit card) followed by 2 parking charge notices from Parking eye. The car hire company have said they will waive these if we can show them a written cancellation notice.
Any advice on whether the above communication with Evology and their admission that the was a technical issue on both days is sufficient to win an appeal with Parking Eye or at POPLA much appreciated.
Thanks!