Hi please any advice on how best to proceed@seanjean123 read the PM (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=pm) I sent you.
The authority were not permitted to use address B therefore IMO your primary grounds are:
Procedural Impropriety:
Failure to serve the Notice to Owner using relevant particulars obtained from DVLA as regards the owner at the 'material time'.
As the authority will see, the NTO was addressed as follows:
Your name
********(address B).
The regulations define 'material time' as follows:
“the material time” means the time when the contravention giving rise to the penalty charge is said to have been committed.
Therefore the 'material time' was 7 November 2024 at which time your 'relevant particulars' held by DVLA were:
You..
******* (address A)
Your relevant particulars were amended by DVLA on ****(enclose a copy of your V5C and highlight the 'docref' date) following your change of address on 26 Nov.
The authority were obliged by virtue of Regulations 6 and 20 of the General Regulations to use ******* (address A) for the purposes of serving the NTO and this failure constitutes a procedural impropriety.
The contravention did not occur
**essentially the arguments given in your previous representations.
As per cp's post, put these together yourself and post a draft here.
We note the comments made in your represenations. However the photographs show that only one wheel of your vehicle was on the paved/roadway area. In your representations you refer to a tarmacked area. Please be aware that the roadway in this area does not have a tarmac surface.
FFS, Bedford does resort to desperate measures.
We note the comments made in your represenations. However the photographs show that only one wheel of your vehicle was on the paved/roadway area. In your representations you refer to a tarmacked area. Please be aware that the roadway in this area does not have a tarmac surface.
What was the date on the NoR - you've cut it off!
Did you post reps as per Reply#52?
@seanjean123 I would add the map you've posted in reply 17, and the following text under the heading "The contravention did not occur":In any event my car was not parked on The Embankment nor was it parked on a road at all: my car was parked in the private car park of the Swann Hotel, which is not a highway nor is it a road to which the public have a right to pass and re-pass, it is private land. While the council may own the freehold title to the grass surrounding the car park, the grass surrounding the car park is not a highway or road either.
It may well be that there is some local bylaw prohibiting parking on grassed areas, but that cannot be enforceable by means of a code 62 PCN unless the grassed area in question is part of a road within the meaning of section 142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, which cannot possibly be the case in the circumstances.
It follows that even if my car had been parked further forwards with all four wheels on the grass, the contravention alleged could not have possibly occurred.
Do not send a letter by post, that causes no end of problems, the best option is to send a representation via the council website and also take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page. If the text doesn't fit in the representations box, put the representation in a PDF file and in the representations box just say "see attached representation", do not cut down the text of the representation to make it fit in the box.
Having had a good look at your thread, my view is that you basically cannot lose based on the point I have articulated above, but Bedford are a bit thick and may well force this to the tribunal. As you have a winning appeal, the discount is somewhat irrelevant at this point.
Please just an addition... do i need to respond by post or via email ? Also i responded to the PCN within 2 weeks which should have meant a GBP 35 fine not GBP 70. Why is GBP 70 on NTO ? It is almost as if the PCN and PCN challenge never happenedBecause all NtOs everywhere have the full PCN penalty. They should re-offer the discount when responding to your reps against the NtO. Does the PCN "small print" say they will re-offer the discount if informal reps are rejected ?
The authority were not permitted to use address B therefore IMO your primary grounds are:
Procedural Impropriety:
Failure to serve the Notice to Owner using relevant particulars obtained from DVLA as regards the owner at the 'material time'.
As the authority will see, the NTO was addressed as follows:
Your name
********(address B).
The regulations define 'material time' as follows:
“the material time” means the time when the contravention giving rise to the penalty charge is said to have been committed.
Therefore the 'material time' was 7 November 2024 at which time your 'relevant particulars' held by DVLA were:
You..
******* (address A)
Your relevant particulars were amended by DVLA on ****(enclose a copy of your V5C and highlight the 'docref' date) following your change of address on 26 Nov.
The authority were obliged by virtue of Regulations 6 and 20 of the General Regulations to use ******* (address A) for the purposes of serving the NTO and this failure constitutes a procedural impropriety.
The contravention did not occur
**essentially the arguments given in your previous representations.
As per cp's post, put these together yourself and post a draft here.
NTO posted 27th Dec.
Last day of 28-day period for making reps is therefore 27 Jan.
You have plenty of time....
..which is why I'm trying to nail the issue of addresses.
Date of contravention is 7 Nov. at which time you were the registered keeper living at address A which is the one still on your V5C;
You moved from address A to address B on 26 Nov;
(edit)
The NTO is addressed to B and not A.
Unless you have notified the authority in writing that you are the owner and that for the purpose of serving formal notices they should use address B and not A then IMO you win irrespective of the merits of the contravention.
I did move house on the 26th of nov. I updated my V5c a week later due to all the moves (01/12/2024)
and....
I never notified DVLA of any.
Still causes me confusion!
Don't be surprised, council incompetence and stupidity means this sort of thing happens quite a lot. In fact, the regulations demand that a warning be placed on parking PCNs served at the roadside. See here, (3.(1)(c): -Hi all,Please post what you have received first. If it is a Notice to Owner, you must respond to it or lose any further appeal options.
I responded on the website to the charge and challeneged it. I did not receive anything back until today. I received a letter from the post saying i should pay GBP 70 as i did not pay the GBP35. I did not even receive anything about my challenge if it was successful or not. Please how should i proceed
I attached the picture. It is a Notice to Owner. I am just surprised my previous challenge was not acknowledged
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/part/2/chapter/1
OP, believe it or not the authority are not required by law to respond to 'representations before a NTO is served' in writing, merely to consider.
But most do.
Don't beat yourself up about this. We don't need to go into detail at this stage.
As you've given your account, something is seriously amiss within the authority and you have a 99.9999% winning hand. They MUST address the NTO to address A. Your current address is neither here nor there.
Don't be surprised, council incompetence and stupidity means this sort of thing happens quite a lot. In fact, the regulations demand that a warning be placed on parking PCNs served at the roadside. See here, (3.(1)(c): -Hi all,Please post what you have received first. If it is a Notice to Owner, you must respond to it or lose any further appeal options.
I responded on the website to the charge and challeneged it. I did not receive anything back until today. I received a letter from the post saying i should pay GBP 70 as i did not pay the GBP35. I did not even receive anything about my challenge if it was successful or not. Please how should i proceed
I attached the picture. It is a Notice to Owner. I am just surprised my previous challenge was not acknowledged
Hi all,Please post what you have received first. If it is a Notice to Owner, you must respond to it or lose any further appeal options.
I responded on the website to the charge and challeneged it. I did not receive anything back until today. I received a letter from the post saying i should pay GBP 70 as i did not pay the GBP35. I did not even receive anything about my challenge if it was successful or not. Please how should i proceed
OP, it's a simple NTO.
But what's not right on first viewing is: It has my current address..
On the face of it this is improper therefore we need to make matters clear.
The authority are required by law to issue the NTO to the 'owner' - deemed for these purposes to be the registered keeper on the date of the contravention and addressed to the keeper at the address held by DVLA at the date of the contravention.*
So, on 7 Nov:
1. Who was the registered keeper;
2. At what address(using an alphabetic descriptor i.e. A);
3. The NTO is addressed to address A or a different address?
*- there is one exception to this which is if the registered keeper has notified the authority formally that all correspondence should be sent to a specified address other than that held by DVLA at the date of the contravention.
I cannot see that this applies in the case of your draft informal reps.
Hi all,Please post what you have received first. If it is a Notice to Owner, you must respond to it or lose any further appeal options.
I responded on the website to the charge and challeneged it. I did not receive anything back until today. I received a letter from the post saying i should pay GBP 70 as i did not pay the GBP35. I did not even receive anything about my challenge if it was successful or not. Please how should i proceed
I received a letter from the post saying i should pay GBP 70
Let's see this letter and confirm whether it has your current or previous address.
Leave in all dates.
@seanjean123 - how did you receive today's letter? Was it forwarded from your old address or did it use your current address? Had you informed the council of a change of address?
When you submitted your online challenge, did you get any acknowledgement or take a screenshot of your challenge?
Have you checked the address on your V5C is correct and up to date?
Quoteauthor=Incandescent link=topic=3829.msg45666#msg45666 date=1731626288]
Sorry, but surely the previous photos show a "No parking on verges" sign right at the front of your car ?
I thought the argument was that your parking was on the hardstanding, and the photos would seem to support this.
[img width=877.5 height=618]https://i.imgur.com/V0eWDiI.jpeg[/img]
[img width=877.5 height=1955]https://i.imgur.com/GRHVvfi.jpeg[/img]
I'd still go with my draft suggestion in post Reply#14
author=Incandescent link=topic=3829.msg45666#msg45666 date=1731626288]
Sorry, but surely the previous photos show a "No parking on verges" sign right at the front of your car ?
I thought the argument was that your parking was on the hardstanding, and the photos would seem to support this.
Thanks for the view. However, I don't know how you've marked your parking location or the sign. What should we be looking for?
OP, GSV is of little use at ground level. Could you look at the aerial view and indicate where you were parked.
At present, I think there's literally a turf war between the council and the hotel.
You were parked somewhere on the private property (AKA hotel car park and ancillary areas) which is controlled by a private parking operator as indicated clearly by entrance signs. The car park seems to be bounded on all sides by grass as regards which only that part which fronts The Embankment may IMO be correctly termed 'verge'. In one of the CEO's photos - which were almost exclusively taken from the private property- a No Parking on verge sign can be seen. But this is facing you and there's grass between you and it which IMO means it applies beyond the sign, not in front. If they mean in front then place it on the border of the car park hardstanding and grass.
Subject to getting more detail as regards exactly which piece of grass is involved, I don't think the contravention occurred. At worst, for you, de minimis, at best there's no order restricting parking where you were.
..and it's the wrong contravention, it should be:
Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway. (Annex B to SoS's Stat Guidance refers)
OP, GSV is of little use at ground level. Could you look at the aerial view and indicate where you were parked.
At present, I think there's literally a turf war between the council and the hotel.
You were parked somewhere on the private property (AKA hotel car park and ancillary areas) which is controlled by a private parking operator as indicated clearly by entrance signs. The car park seems to be bounded on all sides by grass as regards which only that part which fronts The Embankment may IMO be correctly termed 'verge'. In one of the CEO's photos - which were almost exclusively taken from the private property- a No Parking on verge sign can be seen. But this is facing you and there's grass between you and it which IMO means it applies beyond the sign, not in front. If they mean in front then place it on the border of the car park hardstanding and grass.
Subject to getting more detail as regards exactly which piece of grass is involved, I don't think the contravention occurred. At worst, for you, de minimis, at best there's no order restricting parking where you were.
..and it's the wrong contravention, it should be:
Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway. (Annex B to SoS's Stat Guidance refers)
Who was driving is totally irrelevant in PCN cases, because the owner of the vehicle (assumed from the keeper on the V5C), is responsible for a PCN, payment or appealing. So who is the keeper, or is the car leased ?Even if part of a car is on verge or footway as your's seems to be, it is in contravention, I'm afraid. I would suggest that it you submit reps on the basis that the front wheels are clearly on the hard surface, not the verge, and point out that the restriction is clearly there to prevent parking from damaging the verge and its grass surface. As such, your car caused no damage to the grass verge whatsoever, and you are very surprised that a PCN was served.Thanks
Should i admit to being the driver ? I have heard a number of people say i should not.
Also how should i phrase the reply ?
Should i include mitigation ? wife pregnant and coming from the hospital ?
Who was driving is totally irrelevant in PCN cases, because the owner of the vehicle (assumed from the keeper on the V5C), is responsible for a PCN, payment or appealing. So who is the keeper, or is the car leased ?Even if part of a car is on verge or footway as your's seems to be, it is in contravention, I'm afraid. I would suggest that it you submit reps on the basis that the front wheels are clearly on the hard surface, not the verge, and point out that the restriction is clearly there to prevent parking from damaging the verge and its grass surface. As such, your car caused no damage to the grass verge whatsoever, and you are very surprised that a PCN was served.Thanks
Should i admit to being the driver ? I have heard a number of people say i should not.
Also how should i phrase the reply ?
Should i include mitigation ? wife pregnant and coming from the hospital ?
Even if part of a car is on verge or footway as your's seems to be, it is in contravention, I'm afraid. I would suggest that it you submit reps on the basis that the front wheels are clearly on the hard surface, not the verge, and point out that the restriction is clearly there to prevent parking from damaging the verge and its grass surface. As such, your car caused no damage to the grass verge whatsoever, and you are very surprised that a PCN was served.Thanks
Is not the front of the vehicle over the grass verge?
Please give/re-instate PCN number and reg.mark, (see
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and give a GSV link to the location.