Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Dudess73 on November 09, 2024, 07:38:55 am
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Hello, :D
Thank you to all who advised me on my case - I have received notification that all of the charges are now revoked from the collections agency and back with the council which has re-issued me with my PCN's back to the original amount. Thank you so much, I was in a very bad frame of mind at the end of last year because of this - but this forum has been really supportive.
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I have a family member who is a solicitor, luckily for me.
When I spoke to TEC, or was it Barnet council, I cant remember which one it was who gave me the information, one of them told me that they are all out of time.
I have contacted the bailiff advice website which you gave me, and also Mr Mustard/ Mr Dishman who is now in email contact with me. He says that he will help me with the wording for my OOT forms.
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Where are you getting the forms witnessed on a Sunday evening? Needs to be done FOC at the County Court or a solicitor's office who will make a charge. £7-£10 per doc. Or you can try a Magistrate but they charge as well.
I still advise that you get the text of the OOT application reviewed by Bailiff Advice Online before you get the forms witnessed. Also how do you know that an OOT application is required for the sixth and seventh PCNs?
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I have changed the wording of the PE 3 - I have made a short declaration as to why I did not receive the pcn documents.
Then my PE 2 has all the details of addresses, Royal Mail redirection issue and V5c incorrect name details . I am getting this legally signed now as I do want to make sure this all goes out before start of the day tomorrow. Hoping and praying. Thank you for your help. My dad used to crusade on this, he is departed now so I am going it alone so thank you for your kind support.
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Thank you, I will add in the addresses.
Do you think that I should tell them about Royal Mail not redirecting my post because they had my married name in the redirect- yet my maiden name would have been in the correspondence?
Then the name in the PE 2/3 forms- should it be my maiden name(V5c) or my married name?
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I am preparing the following forms for all seven PCNs
PE2
PE3
Please see what I have written below
I have filled out both form with the same wording as I dont understand how they differ.
You need PE2 and PE3 for each PCN. I'm not sure you understand that?
Note Enceladus' comments.
It is important that you DO understand the purpose of each form.
The PE3s are you Statutory declaration and only need minimal detail.
The PE2s are requests to file the PE3s late and where you explain in full why you should be allowed to do that.
One thing I immediately noticed, from a brief look, is that you talk about addresses but don't say what they are? Or offer any evidence of the same.
You can attach whatever is appropriate and refer to it, annotating attachments suitably.
Likewise you can type out your 'reasons' on a separate sheet if it doesn't fit the box.
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You've drifted into the realms of mitigation. The court officer cannot factor mitigation into their decision to grant or reject your Out of Time application. They can only consider that you have valid reasons for being lat and therefore needing an extension of the limit to submit a Statutory Declaration.
So sticking with the facts and bearing in mind there needs to be one application per PCN. Modify it if you wish. Othere may advise changes, probaly to make it shorter. And I still suggest you seek help from BAO as to the wording, that's her speciality.
"I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice or any of the following notices, in particular I did not receive an Order for Recovery. I moved house to my current address on dd/mm/yyyy and arranged a mail redirection from Royal Mail for nn months to cover any overlap and prevent the circumstances that I now find myself in. (Please see the attached redirection notice.) Despite the mail redirection I did not receive any correspondence from the London Borough of Barnet, however I did receive mail from other parties so I had no reason to suspect the redirection wasn't working.
I only became aware that there might be a problem of outstanding PCNs as a result of bailiff visits to my old address acting on behalf of the London Borough of Barnet. I was advised of these visits by the new owners of my old address (or how did you find out?). I then telephoned the London Borough of Barnet and discovered that there were seven Penalty Charge Notices outstanding and I had not received any documentation at all in respect of these notices. I was advised to submit Statutory Declarations with applications to submit them out of time. Please grant my application to submit a statutory seclaration out of time."
On the PE3 SD form tick the box that says "I did not receive the: Notice to Owner (Parking contravention) or Enforcement Notice (Bus lane contravention) or Penalty Charge Notice (Moving Traffic contravention or Congestion Charging contravention)". Make sure you only tick one box. You don't really need anything in the reasons box, but you could put I did not receive the original PCN.
On the OOT put your reasons in the box if they fit. Otherwise put "Please see attached".
I still advise you to get your address updated.
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I too noticed that I had made the same mistake in 2019 however i can’t remember having the fine- it could have been my husband driving.
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Dear Enceladus,
I am preparing the following forms for all seven PCNs
PE2
PE3
Please see what I have written below
I have filled out both form with the same wording as I dont understand how they differ.
I have recently become aware that I had received multiple PCN’s when the new owners informed me that a bailiff appeared at my former address with regard to unpaid fine. I have not receive any correspondence from Barnet Council in respect of any PCN’s. I moved address on the 29th March 2024 and had a Royal Mail had a redirection notice to send my post to my new address. I am including the redirection order attached from Royal Mail.
I have not yet updated my vehicle registration address yet. The move was very stressful, and I was not able to think clearly and for this I apologise.
I contacted Barnet council immediately I heard from my neighbours to find out more details. This was the first I heard of any contravention. I have now come to find out that there are 7 fines for myself for the same contravention. 7 fines for the same offence clearly constitutes repetitive issue of the same PCN in breach of the statutory guidance for local authorities. If I had received the first PCN I would have paid the fine immediately and not made the same left turn with the knowledge this was a contravention. I certainly would not have made the same mistake 6 more times.
The bailiffs have threatened to remove my car. I have two young children. This has caused me and my family undue stress.
I would respectfully ask you to immediately suspend all enforcement action in respect of these PCN’s and allow me to pay the original PCN in full.
I look forward to hearing form you by return.
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PCN Date Ctvn Status Bailiff
AG45512514 18/04/2024 Warrant Issued Marstons
AG45525990 20/04/2024 Warrant Issued Marstons
AG45543981 24/04/2024 Warrant Issued CDER
AG45617931 03/05/2023 Warrant Requested ***
AG45698456 16/05/2023 Warrant Requested ***
AG45771024 23/05/2024 OfR sent ***
AG45780433 24/05/2024 OfR sent ***
Unfortunately the Councils PCN viewer only shows us the date of Contravention and not the dates of the progression actions.
You have three PCNs with the bailiffs. The earliest two are Marstons and the third is CDER. I'd ask Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/) if that is legal. Should they all be Marstons? Any Statutory Declaration will be late and out of time.
PCNs 4 & 5 are status Local Authority warrant of control requested. That is normally processed very quickly by the TEC. It tells us that they're beyond the Order for Recovery stage and are pending assignment to a bailiff for collection. Any Statutory Declaration will be late and out of time.
PCNs 6 & 7 are status Order for Recovery sent. We don't know the dates of the OfRs so they could be still within time for a statutory declaration. I wonder if you should try anyway and pronto? The TEC will bounce the SDs if they are out of time and tell you to resubmit with OOT applications, might take 2-3 weeks. Or you could phone the Council and see can you get the dates of the OfRs and report back.
So there at least five PCNs which require Out of Time applications as well as Statutory Declarations. But what to put on the OOT applications?
Curiously you seem to have made the same contravention on the 20th May 2019 and paid the PCN. So you must have known about the prohibited left turn. What happened this time?
Statutory Declarations and the Out of Time applications need to bw witnessed. This can be done FOC at any convenient County Court. Phone and check opening hours and make an appoinment of need. Each PCN needs it's own SD and the first five and possibly the last two require individual OOT applications. Complete the SD's to the effect that you did not receive the PCNs. For the purposes of these documents you are the Respondent and the Council is the Applicant.
But don't submit anything without posting up a draft of what you're going to put on the OOT applications. And you are well advised to get advice from Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/) for completing the OOT applications.
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AG45512514
AG45525990
AG45543981
AG45617931
AG45698456
AG45771024
AG45780433
ld62cpu
Please see above for PCNs and VRN
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There are seven- two are with a bailiff which I have spoken with- I didn’t realise that another one was with a bailiff until I saw it on the Barnet website today.
The other 4 -when I spoke to the TEC - I have been told are out of time, but there is still the option to pay them at the £205 amazing in the Barnet website. Sorry for the confusion my head is spinning as there’s so much to take into consideration.
I will post the Pcn numbers and the Vrn.
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There are seven PCNs. Earlier today two of them had escalated to bailiff recovery and the remaining five were sitting at £205 each, ie Orders for Recovery stage.
In your post above you have told us "three warrants with the bailiffs for the three oldest PCNs". So in less than 14 1/2 hours on a Saturday the situation has apparently changed.
Please post up a list of all seven PCNs and their current status. And the reg number of the car. So we can get to the bottom where you actually are with each PCN.
If your are within the time limit to do so on the five of seven, or is it now four of seven, PCNs you started with then you can submit statutory declarations and have the PCNS reset to the original postal PCN stage. So the Orders for Recovery would be revoked and the Charge Certificates ordered cancelled. The Council would have to re-serve the PCNs and you would have the opportunity to challenge and appeal in the normal manner. Or to pay the PCNs at the discount rate within the discount windows. IE £65 each as opposed to the £205 each they're now sitting at.
The remaining two of seven, or is it now three of seven, are more problematic as you would need to submit the SDs Out of Time and you need a very well worded explanation to get that accepted.
So please let's have the list before this situation degenerates further.
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Apologies for not understanding fully! Thank you for your patience. The warrant will be reissued to me by the bailiffs- but at the original amount at the start of their process which would be less the £235 enforcement fee. I would contact the council first, then the bailiff would be contacted by the council. The bailiff would then re issue the warrant to me.
This would apply for the three warrants with the bailiffs for the three oldest PCNs. The other four out of time PCNs not yet with the bailiffs; I could go down the route of PE2/3 Out of time witness statement. Is this right?
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have to start the procedure again and issue the fine from the start.
NO.
All they need to do is refer the matter to their client, the council, who would arrange to have the details on the warrant changed.
It has nothing to do with the procedure up to the warrant. However, as said frequently, if the warrant is changed then a fresh Notice of Enforcement would be required, therefore you would save the £235 Enforcement fee if this was included within the debt. You could also potentially avoid the £75 Compliance fee if you paid the pre-enforcement penalty which itself you would be free to challenge through TEC but in this case unlikely to succeed.
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I am trying to understand the rule 6- is this to say that the bailiffs can’t come to my new address as it does not match the address on the original fine from the council? The council will have to start the procedure again and issue the fine from the start. The bailiffs can’t simply re write their red letter with my new address on it?
Do I need to get proof of the original council pcn with my old address before I do this?
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You may propose settling the statutory original Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) amount within your Rule 6 notice, incorporating this payment offer into your resolution advisory. Once the original PCN amount is remitted, this action will effectively close both the liability and any further enforcement action in full and final settlement.
A PE2 application is unnecessary, as the existing Warrant is defective, and it is advisable to allow it to remain in that state, thus protecting your position without further procedural steps.
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Thank you Pressman,
If this is successful will it mean they have to re issue the fine at the first stage? i.e at the reduced sum? I think it’s £120 and then £60 for early payment?
Yes.
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Thank you Pressman,
To go for the rule 6 route, I would need to provide my new address is this right? Then the authority will re issue a warrant and the bailiff will bring it to my new address? So are you saying this is the way to go so in the meantime I can buy time to get my PE2/3 forms seen to?
Or am I offering the local authority to pay for the full fine and to take it back in hand and out of the bailiffs control?
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My V5c is in my maiden name - the redirect notice was in my married name.
You are right - this may be why my post was not re-directed.
Royal Mail Redirection application forms make clear that they only redirect for the names as listed on the application. So that will be why there was no Redirection. Your hadn't asked for mail in your maiden name to be redirected.
EDIT Apologies, I see the point has already been made.
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If this is successful will it mean they have to re issue the fine at the first stage? i.e at the reduced sum? I think it’s £120 and then £60 for early payment?
No.
You need to differentiate between the authority's procedures and post OfR. But if you relieve yourself of £75+£235 then this is progress.
ONLY TEC may revert the process to the PCN stage, which is what's implied by your post.
And if you're in the OOT situation, then IMO you'll struggle to get the OfRs etc. cancelled. Temporary relief from enforcement of a warrant is...temporary relief.
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Thank you Pressman,
If this is successful will it mean they have to re issue the fine at the first stage? i.e at the reduced sum? I think it’s £120 and then £60 for early payment?
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To address the enforcement activity by Barnet, I advise you to review Post 18 within the thread linked here:
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/bailiffs-in-touch-moving-to-court-reading-council-pcn-contravention-bus-lane-not/15/?PHPSESSID=ntfcqrjceun1t2934m2p80e53g
This post outlines a relevant approach that can assist in constructing a robust Rule 6 notice demanding an immediate cessation of enforcement action. The grounds for this are that the current Warrant of Control inaccurately lists a former address, rendering it invalid and unenforceable under the present circumstances.
Utilising the structure and wording within the post will enable you to present a clear, firm, and authoritative notice. This document should unequivocally communicate to Barnet that their enforcement authority is compromised due to the procedural defect, thereby requiring them to desist until a corrected warrant is issued. By formally notifying them of this defect, you assertively challenge the legitimacy of their current enforcement actions. This strategic approach enhances your position and compels Barnet to comply with the prescribed procedural standards.
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The other 5 I can see on the Barnet website – when I spoke to the TRAFFIC enforcement company they said that all of my fines were out of time. However, I thought to check on the Barnet website and it seems I can take the boxes with option to pay the full amount still on five of my PCNs.
If I don’t submit a PE2/3 then what else can I do especially with regards to the three that are with the bailiffs now?
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Yes I agree. the status of the remaining five PCNs are a priority.
Please let's have a complete list.
Just reading through this and one point to me stands out, the PCNs and presumably the Bailiff letters will be in your maiden name as this is what appears on the V5C, does this help in any way?
That's a good question.
It seems that you cannot update the RK name and address online at the same time (https://www.gov.uk/change-address-v5c/change-name-address-v5c). You have to fill in the relevant parts of the V5c and post them to the DVLA and it can take six weeks. A copy of your marriage cert needs to be included.
Interestingly a copy of the marriage cert or deed poll is not required just to change the name, without changing the address.
However I assume there is no reason why you cannot keep using your maiden name if you want to. In which case you can update the RK address online. So I would still update the address online.
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OP, IMO get your priorities right pl.
The other 5 I can still see on the Barnet website- they have the option to pay a £205 fine each.
We and you MUST KNOW when the Orders for Recovery 21 day periods for submitting your reset applications expire.
ANY still in time must be dealt with before anything else IMO.
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A warrant issued in a debtor's maiden name remains enforceable unless the address is incorrect, which would render it invalid. There are numerous precedents supporting this position, though they are too extensive to list comprehensively here.
It is crucial to avoid completing a PE2 or TE9 form or disclosing your current address. Doing so would immediately activate CPR 75.7(7), enabling the council to issue a new warrant at your updated address. This action would effectively reset the process, inviting bailiffs to resume enforcement even before the authority has addressed your Rule 6 notice.
Putting your car on someone else's driveway prevents the bailiff from removing it; otherwise, the enforcement is in breach of Paragraph 14(6) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.
While suggesting PE2 or TE9 may come from a place of goodwill, following this route in your particular situation could lead to unintended consequences, ultimately working against your interests.
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Just a question.
Whilst this is happening should I be putting my car on a private drive not my own? Would a neighbour’s drive be an option?
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Ok I will do this for you later in this evening. Please look out for my reply in a few hours time.
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Please post up a list of all of the PCNs.
Include the date of issue and the PCN numbers.
Please indicate which PCNs the bailiff is currently pursuing?
What is the vehicle reg?
And please don't submit any out of time applications or pay the bailiff any money until we have all of the facts.
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Yea agree about my mistake in not updating my V5c address.
The other 5 I can still see on the Barnet website- they have the option to pay a £205 fine each. I think they are about to be sent off to the bailiffs from What i could gather from the person I spoke to at the council.
These remaining 5 - I will be issuing the out of time forms for. As they are not with a bailiff does this mean that they will be put on hold until Barnet have made a decision ? Thank you
No you are getting this wrong and making flawed assumptions.
Just tell us the latest position with each pcn.
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Yes they are in my maiden name. this is why this has happened.
I am wondering if there is any point of trying to get an out of time form for the three fines with the bailiffs now.
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Just reading through this and one point to me stands out, the PCNs and presumably the Bailiff letters will be in your maiden name as this is what appears on the V5C, does this help in any way?
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Yea agree about my mistake in not updating my V5c address.
The other 5 I can still see on the Barnet website- they have the option to pay a £205 fine each. I think they are about to be sent off to the bailiffs from What i could gather from the person I spoke to at the council.
These remaining 5 - I will be issuing the out of time forms for. As they are not with a bailiff does this mean that they will be put on hold until Barnet have made a decision ? Thank you
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@Enceladus, +1
+1. Frankly the letter draft is unnecessary and also incorrect in important details.
They can't enforce against you at your old address because you don't live there. Whoever does will no doubt tell them as much, and maybe where you live if they know. So this doesn't need a letter from you in the terms suggested. As regards the authority's use of your old address, up to and including the OfR their obligation is to use the keeper info supplied by DVLA.(and as you haven't yet bothered to update this, what else could they use even if they wanted to?). The 2007 regs do not exist because they have been revoked and replaced by the 2022 regs.
But for me of more importance is: The other 5 contraventions are near bailiff stage.
What does this mean precisely? If any of the Orders for Recovery have not lapsed then your priority MUST be to submit Stat Decs where possible.
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I will be using my correct address on the PE2/3 forms and also be updating my V5c this weekend.
Please could you re clarify the following:
If the V5c is in my old address will the council say they tried to contact me at the " last known address"?
You have written in your letter the following:
"This breaches Regulation 8 of The Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013, which requires enforcement notices to be sent to the "last known address". The failure to verify my address compromises the validity of the Warrant under CPR Rule 83.9."
Does this still apply if they did not have my new address?
I am presuming that the council received all my undelivered post as Royal mail said they could not deliver it.
This seems to be a sticking point.
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You will have to put your correct and current address on the Statutory Declaration (PE3) and it's associated Out of Time Application (PE2). It would be illegal not to. The Council will be informed of your application and consequently the updated address. They will no doubt inform their agents, the bailiffs. Even if the bailiffs don't know already.
I would update the V5c with the DVLA now. You can do it online. It won't do you any good to delay.
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Dear Pressman,
Also I want to clarify one thing, my V5c is still registered to my old address. That is probably why this has happened. Is your letter still valid?
Many thanks again.
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Dear Pressman,
You are very kind to do this for me I am so grateful for your help.
I will send this letter to London Borough of Barnet parking team.
Should I send it via email? I have contacted them before using the enquiry form on their website - but is there a more formal address to send it too? Also, I have already sent Barnet a message via the online website enquiry form asking them to put my case on hold with the bailiffs whilst I organise an PE2/PE3 form - has this ruined my case and made your letter un-sendable?
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Go with this.
Subject: Defective Warrant and Cease and Desist Notice under CPR Rule 6
Dear London Borough of Barnet,
I am writing to urgently address serious procedural deficiencies in the enforcement actions related to multiple Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) issued for the alleged "no left turn" contravention from Tilling Road to Brentfield Gardens. I believe the Warrant of Control is defective, and procedural breaches render any ongoing enforcement invalid until these issues are resolved immediately.
Incorrect Address on the Warrant: Enforcement actions were directed to my previous address, despite my efforts to update my details and having a Royal Mail redirection in place. This breaches Regulation 8 of The Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013, which requires enforcement notices to be sent to the "last known address". The failure to verify my address compromises the validity of the Warrant under CPR Rule 83.9.
Absence of Proper Notification: I received no correspondence at my new address. Under Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and Regulation 3 of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, notices must be sent to the registered keeper's current address. The lack of notice has obstructed my right to respond, further undermining the legitimacy of enforcement actions.
Repetitive Issuance of PCNs: Seven PCNs were issued for the same offence without prior warning or opportunity for rectification. This breaches the Statutory Guidance for Local Authorities on Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions, which advises authorities to inform motorists of recurring offences to avoid a punitive approach. Barnet Council's failure to do so is disproportionate and unfair.
In light of these serious procedural defects, I demand the immediate suspension of all enforcement actions related to these PCNs. I further request an urgent review of the Warrant to verify adherence to statutory regulations. Please provide written confirmation within 7 days outlining the steps Barnet Council will take to achieve full compliance. Additionally, I require a formal cease and desist notice from Barnet Council in writing by 14 November 2024, confirming the suspension of all enforcement actions until these procedural issues are fully resolved. If enforcement proceeds without resolving these statutory breaches, I will be left with no option but to commence formal legal action.
I trust you will treat this matter with the utmost urgency and respond promptly to avoid unnecessary escalation.
Yours sincerely,[Your Full Name]
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My V5c is in my maiden name - the redirect notice was in my married name.
You are right - this may be why my post was not re-directed.
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I just need time to get my out of time form processed- and for Barnet Council to put the bailiffs on hold so I can wait for their reply.
That's not something to take lightly. It needs specific focussed content or it is likely to fail.
You need to establish the facts with us here first.
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The royal Mail site says here https://www.royalmail.com/d8/help/redirection
"We can’t redirect:
..........
Mail for people who weren’t living at the old address
..........
Any mail the law prohibits us from redirecting. For example we may be required to notify the authorities of Redirection requests for mail relating to government benefits."
Where does the law prohibit redirection of an envelope containing a PCN? I don't see how an envelope containing a statutory notice from a Local Authority is related to government benefits?
Mail from Councils that can't be redirected are usually endorsed as such, are they not? I've never seen a PCN notice that's so endorsed.
However was the V5c in your name or was it in the name of another family member? I've previously come across redirection fails if say John Smith is on the redirect request and the letter is addressed to his wife, Jane Smith.
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I will call Royal Mail and ask for it in writing.
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I just spoke with Royal Mail- they say that government post does not get redirected!
Can you get that in writing? You paid for redirection?
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I just spoke with Royal Mail- they say that government post does not get redirected! Just returned to sender- ie Barnet. I moved on 29th March and my first contravention date was on 18th April. The redirection date was from April 5th until 04 October. All 2024
Digging out my log book now
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This doesn't explain why mail redirection didn't work.
What are the contravention dates.
What date of move and what dates redirection in place.
Have you looked at the logbook.
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Thank you I will contact Mr Mustard. The logbook address is my old address.
I just need time to get my out of time form processed- and for Barnet Council to put the bailiffs on hold so I can wait for their reply.
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What is the address on the logbook.
What is the car VRM (numberplate).
This looks like you should get help from:
https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk
and maybe Mr Mustard (I think enforcing this location is or was defective).
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Dear all,
I moved house 6 months ago, and have come to know that two separate bailiffs visited my old address to collect £1000 for unpaid fines.
The contravention was no left turn Tilling Road to Brentfield Gardens.
My VRN was not updated yet. Royal Mail redirection was in place but I received not a single letter from Barnet.
On contacting Barnet Council, I have come to find out that there are 7 contraventions for me all the same offence.
I need to apply for PE2/PE3 Out of Time, which can take 2 weeks for a result, but the bailiff has said he will find me and take my car away within that time. The other 5 contraventions are near bailiff stage. I have asked the bailiff to put me on their vulnerable team as I have two young children but so far they have refused. So far I have only spoken over the phone to them and no correspondence has been received.
I am so stressed. If I had received a single fine I would have paid and not made the mistake again. It seems so strange that So many letters from Barnet have not reached my new address but all other correspondence has.
Thank you