Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: FishBoy on November 08, 2024, 05:20:49 pm
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Well done for staying the course. ;D
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An update on this case...
@Hippocrates kindly submitted an appeal on my behalf to the London Tribunals on 24th Dec 24, I believe without providing any evidence from our side. The hearing was set for Feb 10th 25. I was just starting to get geared up for this when I received an email with an attachment of the letter below.
So I presume that is case closed? No hearing, no fine?
If so then obviously I am very relieved, and pleased that the outcome reflects common sense. But a small part of me does want to know whether the reason for not contesting the appeal was due to fairness & justice, or was it just some admin issue - not having the resources or something?
Does this thread need to go in the successes folder or somewhere?
Many, many thanks for all your help.
(https://i.imgur.com/PUj3AHR.jpeg)
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@Hippocrates could you briefly explain the appeal process please? And would you be willing & able to assist me with it? Many thanks.
Of course. By e mail. Really busy today and have a musical weekend and much travel involved too.
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2240451990
3ff: 3. Mr Morgan has provided a screenshot showing the online portal on the Authority's website, with information about the Appellant's appeal and its current status. The date shown on the desktop is 2 November 2024. There is a message highlighted in yellow, which states "The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Sun, 3 Nov 2024. Please pay £130.00 now." Mr Morgan submitted that this amounted to bullying and was incorrect. Mr Morgan referred me to the decision of Adjudicator Houghton in 2240362722, where an appeal was allowed when the same message was displayed.
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Yes the discount was offered for 14 days, which should have been 12/12, but the status quo was stating it would go up to £195 then instead of £130?
Another thing I would like advice on, the height of the restriction signs. I think I've read that there are no regulations / guidelines for this, but I went out and measured them today and the bottom of the signs are 3.4m & 3.6m. Surely that is too high? If you're turning left there's no way you can see them from the driver's seat!
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Is this vague timescale within the regulations? Do I need to guess when it will be? Is this another ground for appeal?
This is typical council intimidation, to "encourage" you to cough-up, but whilst useful to include in any reps to an adjudicator, is unlikely to be the sole reason for a win. I presume they have re-offered the discount in a letter of rejection. The date when this expires would not seem to be included in their computer system functionality, hence the vagueness.
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Just checking the status quo, it's still asking me to pay £65, but it's now saying it will increase to £195 "very soon". Is this vague timescale within the regulations? Do I need to guess when it will be? Is this another ground for appeal?
(https://i.imgur.com/ip1MBVB.png)
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@Hippocrates could you briefly explain the appeal process please? And would you be willing & able to assist me with it? Many thanks.
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Yes. I say Tribunal time.
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@Hippocrates If you have time I'd appreciate a realistic indication of my chances at tribunal, to allow me to decide whether to appeal.
What would be the grounds for appeal? Would it purely be the anomalies with the PCN dates & incorrect / threatening demands for payment, or are there other reasons - inadequate / confusing signage, the road being closed affecting the choice of routes available, the lack of an address for physical payment?
Many thanks as always.
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Cannot access. E mail it to me via my PM. Got it thanks.
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@Hippocrates
I had to scan it as a PDF which I then found Imgur can't handle, so have stored it on Google Drive, share link is here -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_dGKHd_WcgUKR73n4rWLHI3MA0wEwrhF/view?usp=sharing
Please shout if you can't access it.
Many thanks.
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Please. And this is the current status which is an illegal threat:
Penalty Charge Notice details
Ticket ReferenceZY09848835
Your PCN is at full rate stage. PCN process information
Vehicle Registration NumberGV59FUT
ColourGREY
MakeMAZDA
Contravention53j - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone (camera enforcement)
LocationUpper Brockley Road Junction of Ashby Road
First seen atThu, 17 Oct 2024 15:40
Issued atThu, 17 Oct 2024 15:40
Served byPost
The amount outstanding on the Penalty Charge Notice will increase to £195.00 on Thu, 12 Dec 2024. Please pay £65.00 now.
You have already made representations for this PCN and we replied on Mon, 25 Nov 2024. You cannot make representations twice
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@Hippocrates
Notice of Rejection of Representation received 28/11/24, dated 25/11/24
Should I scan & post it here?
What are the next steps?
Many thanks.
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@Hippocrates
Representation submitted, will let you know the outcome.
Many thanks.
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Good.
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@Hippocrates is the below ok for submission - I've made bold the changes I've made to your original text.
Also should the lack of postal address for payment be included?
Do I use the "contravention did not occur" option on the representation?
Dear Lewisham
Ref: PCN ZY09848835 VRN GV59FUT
I make the following formal representations against the said PCN:
1. There is a confusing plethora of signage at the location and the actual restriction signs are so high as to make them unobservable from a driver's seated position.
2. The only advanced warning signage before the junction is on the right hand side, coloured blue, and obscured by a tree, which is inherently unfair as the council does provide such at many other locations.
3. I enclose a screenshot of the current status quo concerning payment and refer you to Case no 2240362722 in this regard. The dates are clearly wrong.
4. Finally, I make a collateral challenge against the wording of the PCN which "acts as notice to owner" which is a conflation of two legislations and, considering the inclusion of a considerable part re 56 days etc - this belongs to parking legislation - it is perfectly reasonable to expect you to include the grounds of appeal from that legislation in addition.
In light of the above
Please cancel the PCN
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Yes. Add the tree issue. Chances depends on their response. But please put everything in and check my draft for one typo con concerning.
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Thanks Hippocrates, apologies for not responding sooner but for some reason I didn't receive a notification for your latest post.
So should I just copy & paste your comments into the appeal section on the Lewisham website?
Just one query - there is an advance warning sign, but it's blue, is on the right hand side of the road, and it's partially obscured by a tree. Does this change matters?
And in your opinion, what are the chances of a successful appeal?
Many thanks.
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Sorry. I will try tomorrow when I get back home from the Tribunal.
Dear Lewisham
Ref: PCN VRM
I make the following formal representations against the said PCN:
1. There is a confusing plethora of signage at the location and the actual restriction signs are rather high.
2. There is no advanced warning signage before the junction which is inherently unfair as the council does provide such at many other locations.
3. I enclose a screenshot of the current status quo con concerning payment and refer you to Case no 2240362722 in this regard. The dates are clearly wrong.
4. Finally, I make a collateral challenge against the wording of the PCN which "acts as notice to owner" which is a conflation of two legislations and, considering the inclusion of a considerable part re 56 days etc - this belongs to parking legislation - it is perfectly reasonable to expect you to include the grounds of appeal from that legislation in addition.
In light of the above
Please cancel the PCN
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Sorry. I will try tomorrow when I get back home from the Tribunal.
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Hi Hippocrates,
I appreciate you are super busy, just wondering if you have had a chance to draft anything yet for this?
The online portal is still showing that the PCN will be at the discount stage until 18/11, despite our calculations being that is today.
Many thanks.
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Used to be. I will draft tomorrow.
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That's what I thought, but then wondered if maybe it was working days, or from the date the letter was expected to be received, or...??
Is the lack of postal address for payment still a valid point?
Many thanks.
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Correct. Sorry but I am really busy and will need to check the dates in case they are incorrect with your PCN.
14 days from 29th = 11th November. So the date is wrong re the increase.
Incidentally I've calculated that the 50% discount expires this Mon 11/11 (14 days from 29/10) but the online portal is showing Mon 18/11?
We won a case like this a few weeks ago: chaseman v Lambeth. There also seems to be a confusing plethora of signage.
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Thanks Hippocrates.
If by the "status quo" you mean the online portal thing, then it is below.
If it's something else, you may need to direct me!
(https://i.imgur.com/edyNmVX.jpeg)
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pls delete
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Please give me time to deal with the technical issues! Can you screenshot what the status quo says re payment and increase?
I will draft something later when I have looked at the video etc.
There are issues with the PCN. In fact, I am thinking of "accidentally" doing one so I can take it to the High Court.
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Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I only noticed that diversion sign when posting these, but you can see how the road bends to the left, which would have meant reversing / maneuvering to then go right. And as at the time my intention was to continue straight on and then turn left later on, it seemed sensible to go left here instead.
On checking later there is an advance sign on the right of the road, partially obstructed by a tree - image below. But, again, as I was planning on continuing straight on I would have been past it before realising I couldn't, so it wouldn't have been any use?
Many thanks.
(https://i.imgur.com/xYOmQx2.jpeg)
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Video shows roadworks but diversion sign says go right? The one-way directional signs sort of invite one to go left though and clash somewhat with the restriction signs. We do see some appeals allowed where drivers are turning left into these new restrictions. Is there an advance sign?
(https://i.imgur.com/pGCEAwZ.gif)
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Hi, my son had his bike forcibly removed from him on the way back from an after-school music lesson, he was shaken but thankfully unhurt. The police have classed it as robbery from a minor and are therefore investigating. In the following days I felt I had to do something, so visited the area to see if I could identify any useful CCTV and maybe even spot the bike and / or culprit (yes, I know...). It was during one of these trips that I inadvertently drove down a pedestrian zone road - I was completely unaware until I got to the end and saw the 'end of zone' signs. I drove back around the block, absolutely dumbfounded as to how I could have missed any signs, then realised that the likely cause was that the road I was originally heading along was blocked by roadworks, which effectively forced me to turn left into the pedestrian road, and by that point the signs were so high that they were impossible to see from the seat of a car.
Many thanks in advance for any help you can provide, this just feels so unfair as I didn't know the area, was trying to take some positive action following an upsetting crime, the road ahead was closed and the signs just were just too high to see!
I've posted the front & back page of the PCN (there was also the standard "How to challenge" sheet). I noticed that the "PCN Spreadsheet" shows that Lewisham have a known flaw of omitting a postal address for payment, is this still a valid / effective method for cancellation?
Incidentally I've calculated that the 50% discount expires this Mon 11/11 (14 days from 29/10) but the online portal is showing Mon 18/11?
Link to Google Streetview of the location, although it appears to be from 2015 before the restrictions were introduced -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2vfqd3kt56x6EQWg9
I've also posted images of:
(1) the view I had when approaching the roadworks / junction - the signs are to the left, you can see how high they are (and also that they have no illumination - do the regulations state they should and is this a ground for cancellation?)
(2) the view I had when realising the road ahead was closed and I would have to take a different route - note the signs at this point are not visible, only the inviting one way signs...
(3) the view down the pedestrian zone road
(https://i.imgur.com/n782Uxp.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gJKITfy.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yC8EjH6.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tmTfhNU.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vOCgO5e.jpeg)